Re: Install of pkg fuse-ntfs fails because of undefined symbol in pkg!?!
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 11:02:41PM +0100, Michelle Sullivan wrote: > Or the last strong hold you have - the server owners - get so p**sed off in > reality they can't keep up with the OS updates that they migrate away... So we should give up on EFI, 4k drives, and SSD? mcl ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Install of pkg fuse-ntfs fails because of undefined symbol in pkg!?!
Mark Linimon wrote: On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 08:17:31AM -0500, scratch65...@att.net wrote: A good rule of thumb from industry in the case of major software would be "forever", meaning until it's very unlikely that anyone is still using it because of hardware obsolescence, etc. (Sigh.) And how many people do you think it takes to do such support? Why is Linux able to so easily replace FreeBSD? The desktop is gone. Servers are going. The new AMD chips are being tested against Intel on Linux boxes, not FreeBSD boxes. FreeBSD is being made obsolete. In other words, if we move fast enough to try to keep up with Linux changes, FreeBSD is obsolete. If we move more slowly than Linux, then FreeBSD is obsolete. I'm being serious. We get criticized either way. Also, for package sets, consider that size * each OS release * each architecture (ok, some architectures) = a lot of disk space. We simply have finite disk space. IMHO, the days that we can expect ports maintainers and committers to keep e.g. a FreeBSD 4.11 viable for years are over. By the EOL of 4.11, we were asking volunteers to support *4* major OS releases. That was crazy. As for the OS releases, we're trying to keep up with new disk technologies, new ways of booting, new wireless techniques, graphics APIs that change rapidly, and on and on. The pace of these changes is outside our control. We can keep up or become irrelevant. Or the last strong hold you have - the server owners - get so p**sed off in reality they can't keep up with the OS updates that they migrate away... FreeBSD seems to have entered (trying to enter) the desktop market... good luck competing with Apple and Microsoft... I guess FreeBSD will be the next Solaris. -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Install of pkg fuse-ntfs fails because of undefined symbol in pkg!?!
On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 08:17:31AM -0500, scratch65...@att.net wrote: > A good rule of thumb from industry in the case of major software > would be "forever", meaning until it's very unlikely that anyone > is still using it because of hardware obsolescence, etc. (Sigh.) And how many people do you think it takes to do such support? > Why is Linux able to so easily replace FreeBSD? The desktop is > gone. Servers are going. The new AMD chips are being tested > against Intel on Linux boxes, not FreeBSD boxes. FreeBSD is > being made obsolete. In other words, if we move fast enough to try to keep up with Linux changes, FreeBSD is obsolete. If we move more slowly than Linux, then FreeBSD is obsolete. I'm being serious. We get criticized either way. Also, for package sets, consider that size * each OS release * each architecture (ok, some architectures) = a lot of disk space. We simply have finite disk space. IMHO, the days that we can expect ports maintainers and committers to keep e.g. a FreeBSD 4.11 viable for years are over. By the EOL of 4.11, we were asking volunteers to support *4* major OS releases. That was crazy. As for the OS releases, we're trying to keep up with new disk technologies, new ways of booting, new wireless techniques, graphics APIs that change rapidly, and on and on. The pace of these changes is outside our control. We can keep up or become irrelevant. mcl ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Install of pkg fuse-ntfs fails because of undefined symbol in pkg!?!
Hi! > On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 17:26:00 +0100, Kurt Jaeger wrote > >Getting the ports/pkg tree moving with the velocity necessary > >to cope with the fast-changing world, sometimes things break > >and we all try to prevent this. Sometimes, mistakes happen... > > But it's the velocity that's the problem, Kurt. While I very much sympathize with "The world rotates too fast, I want to get off", for me it looks like as a project we do not have alternatives. > Do you know of anyone who has successfully defended, or even > tried to defend, the current manic pace of revision and > obsoleting? Is it defense, if we see many projects (open source etc) shorten their cycle time (e.g. php7), because they see the need to add features or patch security issues (and breaks APIs/ABIs doing either) ? And if we try to keep up and for this, if we add features to the ports framework ? I'm doing this (application mgmt on unix systems) for a long time now, a quarter of a century, and I see no viable alternative in the problem space we work in. I also see that this very fast speed uses up huge amounts of person power and compute resources (all those folks rebuilding many ports in their build hosts). But it's not easy to stop off this planet 8-} -- p...@opsec.eu+49 171 3101372 3 years to go ! ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Install of pkg fuse-ntfs fails because of undefined symbol in pkg!?!
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 10:09:35 -0500, Steve Wills wrote: >Hi, > >On 02/08/2017 12:34, scratch65...@att.net wrote: >> >> I *did* check for bug reports. I did a search on "utimenstat" >> and found exactly one, which had been withdrawn as not being a >> bug. >> >> But it *is* a bug. It's a bug on several levels, the most >> significant of which is that the overly frantic schedule makes >> versions have the lifespan of a mayfly. And we're told "just >> upgrade", as though there's some physical law mandating the >> craziness. > >Ports and packages are maintained on the assumption that the user is >using a supported version of the OS. We didn't decide when to end >support for 10.1 or 10.2. How long after the end of life for 10.1 would >you have ports maintain support? A good rule of thumb from industry in the case of major software would be "forever", meaning until it's very unlikely that anyone is still using it because of hardware obsolescence, etc. "Support" for out-of-rev software need be no more than disc space, if that's all that can be afforded. I'd have been happy to get that package I thought I would get--it never occurred to me that the packages for 10.2 would all be summarily purged! > >> There are people for whom the system is a tool, not a hobby. They >> don't want to have to rebuild their tools any more than >> carpenters want to replace their hammers and levels every year or >> two. > >If you've having trouble upgrading that are causing you to rebuild, then >that's a different issue, but not one I can help with. It doesn't change >the fact that we don't support unsupported versions of the OS. But the transition to "unsupported" is not a function of physical law. It's a human choice, and can be revisited any time people are willing to do so. Why is Linux able to so easily replace FreeBSD? The desktop is gone. Servers are going. The new AMD chips are being tested against Intel on Linux boxes, not FreeBSD boxes. FreeBSD is being made obsolete. This not happening by accident. And it won't stop by itself. > >> For those people (I'm one) long version lifespans and bug-free >> operation is a much bigger desideratum than winning the secret >> race (I presume there is some kind of secret race going on, since >> otherwise the crazy scheduling makes No Sense At All). I can't >> work out what the strategy for winning is, if there is a >> strategy, but I do know that it's not working. Linux has all >> but won already, and that's sickening. > >Ports are maintained by volunteers. If you would like to volunteer to >support branches for longer periods of time, let's talk about that. I'm a customer. I'm one of the people for whom the dev and porting work is supposedly being done. The problem is the lunatic turnover rate. It prevents things from being done in any kind of measured way. It's all firefighting, all the time. That guarantees that things fall through the cracks, tempers get short, and people burn out. Who benefits? > >> I've been using the o/s since before v2 (I still have the cds) >> and have watched FreeBSD go from being the leading Unix on Intel >> boxes to all-but-dead. I don't know how to express how saddened >> I feel about that. > >I think ports are really improving and the rate of improvement is going up. Then why is Linux everywhere and fBSD is circling the drain? ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Install of pkg fuse-ntfs fails because of undefined symbol in pkg!?!
On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 17:26:00 +0100, Kurt Jaeger wrote >Getting the ports/pkg tree moving with the velocity necessary >to cope with the fast-changing world, sometimes things break >and we all try to prevent this. Sometimes, mistakes happen... But it's the velocity that's the problem, Kurt. Do you know of anyone who has successfully defended, or even tried to defend, the current manic pace of revision and obsoleting? I haven't, but I'd like to read it if you know of an attempted defence! ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: ports and dependency hell
On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 00:04:27 +0100, Martin Waschbüsch stated: >Thus, what you describe sounds, imho, like wanting to eat the cake >and have it. What good is a goddamn cake if you cannot eat it? What, should I eat someone else's cake instead? Besides, how could you possibly eat a cake if you did not possess it first? Personally, I prefer pie anyway. -- Carmel ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
