Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On 3/9/11 8:57 PM, mikel king mikel.k...@olivent.com wrote: In recent years their marketing as gone to some lengths to scrub the references to BSD UNIX from the brochures. It's like they are ashamed of their roots, again personally I think they hired some new anti-geeks that just don't get it. i think it's deeper than that. they know what they are doing. back at the beginning, os x was great. finally a decent, user-friendly gui on top of a decent unix-like thing, which, oh joy, felt like bsd. for years, apple improved os x and did some oss work. e.g. webkit is decent stuff. life was good. ms word in this window, terminal in that one, mysql, perl, then the iphone and the disaster of not having an sdk ready (other than mobile safari) happened. they wised up and everything changed. with ios apple has a strategy to get away from all that openness. they are steering developers away from the web and portable web apps. so they are backpedaling on safari and os x as best they can. if they can dominate in mobile hardware for a while longer they may achieve some serious api lock-in. then we will be in trouble. it is the same strategy ms used after they won the browser war with netscape -- they backpedaled on IE, got very deep windows api lock in, and made a load of money. it's been a curious inversion. 10 years ago, in terms of how scared i am, i'd have ranked ms, apple and google with ms at the top and both apple and google as not very scary. now i am terrified of google, very scared of apple and i hardly even think about ms. so i think the change is very canny and comes from the top, not from some anti-geeks that don't get it. and as far as investing in corporate stock is concerned, oss virtue (like environmental virtue or sweat shop virtue) is just so much marketing blather. a corporation's responsibility is to make money for its investors. business ethics is and always will be purely utilitarian. apple has good marketing but don't kid yourself. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
Hi questions@, Original question from Nerius Landys nlan...@gmail.com : Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? Apple has always enjoyed its dedicated customer base. (Many computer companies have liked to keep users locked, eg Burroughs Algol extensions limiting emigration, IBM PC hardware patents on hardware clones, Microsoft its tricks, Sun Java being logged, licensed not anonymous ftp, mobile phones locked to providers, etc). Apple have used BSD, employed some BSD people, contributed to whatever, But ... Considering an Apple PDA, I asked questions of an Apple enthusiast ~ 3 months back eg: I'd like to code on FreeBSD, mabe cross compile, or just vi on FreeBSD then rdist / rsync or nfs + amd mount to my [maybe Apple] slim device, have ssh rlogin csh/ bash gcc bsd-make, etc on the slim device, share screens under X etc ... is that possible, free easy ? Answer received: No, You'd need an Apple with OS cracks that voids the warranty Didn't seem so BSD friendly to me. Disclaimer/Disclosure: I have no past, present, direct, indirect, employment, trade, investment, with Apple or [PDA etc] competitors. - Aside, On Disclaimers:: Chuck Swiger wrote: Hi-- #include std/disclaimer.h It wouldn't be considered appropriate for Apple employees or contractors (well, outside of the folks working in investor relations, perhaps) to try to persuade someone to invest in a particular company because of which open source projects Apple might be contributing towards. In another context, someone from Apple who was familiar with those contributions might be free to discuss them, but they would generally be expected to not identify their affiliation with Apple to avoid unduly influencing other people or creating a real or perceived conflict of interest. To not declare affiliation for fear it might tilt perception of recipient, would be misguided. A disclaimer such as I work for XYZ. I do not speak for XYZ. would suffice. One declares affiliations to be fair to recipients safeguard oneself. Recipients are informed, can draw their own conclusions, not roast one for undeclared interest :-). Examples: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/how-ofcom-is-run/ofcom-board-2/policy-on-conflicts-of-interest/ Section 6: PROVIDED .. there is full transparency about any such interests. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld/ldcond/code.pdf P3 a full list of Members' financial and other interests is published in the Register of Lords' Interests. Probably more here etc: http://www.transparency.org/ http://ethics.senate.gov/fd.htm Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail plain text; Not quoted-printable, Not HTML, Not base 64. Reply below text sections not at top, to avoid breaking cumulative context. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Thu, March 10, 2011 8:51 am, Tom Worster wrote: i think it's deeper than that. they know what they are doing. back at the beginning, os x was great. finally a decent, user-friendly gui on top of a decent unix-like thing, which, oh joy, felt like bsd. for years, apple improved os x and did some oss work. e.g. webkit is decent stuff. life was good. ms word in this window, terminal in that one, mysql, perl, then the iphone and the disaster of not having an sdk ready (other than mobile safari) happened. they wised up and everything changed. with ios apple has a strategy to get away from all that openness. they are steering developers away from the web and portable web apps. so they are backpedaling on safari and os x as best they can. if they can dominate in mobile hardware for a while longer they may achieve some serious api lock-in. then we will be in trouble. it is the same strategy ms used after they won the browser war with netscape -- they backpedaled on IE, got very deep windows api lock in, and made a load of money. There's another business reason for it as well, I think: When OS X first came out, Apple was a serious underdog. Nearly out of the game entirely, really. That openness helped them by lowering the cost-to-entry of products, and bringing in any product that already supported the standards. Building on open-source technologies also meant they could pick up something that was pre-written, and well-tested. So they got goodwill, a cheap product, and support from third-parties. All of which were vitally important to a company that was battling for it's life against Microsoft. Now they have recovered, and are a solid contender on the desktop on their own, as well as being the undisputed leader in mobile computing. (iPhone/iPad level mobile, though even their laptops have a greater marketshare than their desktops do.) The only one of those reasons that still really applies is goodwill: They already have their product, and third-parties will always try to support the dominant force in the market. (Because that's where their customers are.) Openness in many ways is now a threat: It means that someone who can create a new system that supports the open standards can grab all of Apple's customers easily. Proprietary lock-in is a better bet, as it means that the customers they have will be less likely to leave. It becomes a pain for them to transfer their stuff out of the proprietary ecosystem. This is actually a typical cycle, both in the industry and for Apple itself. The Apple II series was fairly open, and the Mac series was more closed and closed off further until Apple realized they'd gotten themselves in a bad position. Then they opened up again with OS X. To me, at least, it was fully expected. Apple produces awesome, open products, when they have less than 40% or so marketshare. (Extremely random number there.) Above that level of marketshare, their products are usually awesome, but closed, and the awesomeness may or may not be something you use/want. Daniel T. Staal --- This email copyright the author. Unless otherwise noted, you are expressly allowed to retransmit, quote, or otherwise use the contents for non-commercial purposes. This copyright will expire 5 years after the author's death, or in 30 years, whichever is longer, unless such a period is in excess of local copyright law. --- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Thu 10 Mar 2011 at 05:51:06 PST Tom Worster wrote: and as far as investing in corporate stock is concerned, oss virtue (like environmental virtue or sweat shop virtue) is just so much marketing blather. a corporation's responsibility is to make money for its investors. business ethics is and always will be purely utilitarian. apple has good marketing but don't kid yourself. Unless you're buying newly-minted stock, you aren't giving any money to Apple when you buy shares of AAPL. You're giving money to some other person, who bought the shares a while ago and now wants to cash in. In turn, he might have bought them from another investor. In many cases, you have to go a long way back, sometimes all the way to the IPO, before the money goes to the company. They get money when they issue stock, not when it's traded. What you're doing when you buy stock -- especially stock that pays little or no dividends -- is placing a bet that sometime in the future you'll be able to find someone willing to buy it from you at a higher price than you paid. Moreover, the price of most stocks is determined solely by what people are willing to pay for them. Forget all that noise about sales forecasts, P/E, etc. There is no direct, causal connection between those fundamentals and the stock price. They're as pertinent as a baseball player's batting average is to the price of the bubblegum card with his picture on it. You're trading collectibles, and they're subject to the whims of fashion. In summary, I agree with what has been said about contributing to the FreeBSD Foundation if you really want to help the project. It's a much better use of your money. But if you'd rather trade baseball cards, no one's stopping you. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 17:31:32 -0600, Frank Shute fr...@shute.org.uk wrote: Apple produces the clusterfuck that is CUPS, I believe. Apple took over the CUPS project. They didn't write it. They're improving it a lot with every major OSX release, so I'm not sure why you're so upset. Apple is the company that is convincing HP, Brother, Lexmark, etc to agree on a common interface for printing, scanning, faxing, etc. They're doing a lot of good in the printing world. Regards, Mark ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Julian H. Stacey j...@berklix.com Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:36:29 +0100 Subject: Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship Aside, On Disclaimers:: Chuck Swiger wrote: Hi-- #include std/disclaimer.h It wouldn't be considered appropriate for Apple employees or contractors (well, outside of the folks working in investor relations, perhaps) to try to persuade someone to invest in a particular company because of which open source projects Apple might be contributing towards. In another context, someone from Apple who was familiar with those contributions might be free to discuss them, but they would generally be expected to not identify their affiliation with Apple to avoid unduly influencing other people or creating a real or perceived conflict of interest. To not declare affiliation for fear it might tilt perception of recipient, would be misguided. A disclaimer such as I work for XYZ. I do not speak for XYZ. would suffice. One declares affiliations to be fair to recipients safeguard oneself. Recipients are informed, can draw their own conclusions, not roast one for undeclared interest :-). Examples: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/how-ofcom-is-run/ofcom-board-2/policy-on-c onflicts-of-interest/ Section 6: PROVIDED .. there is full transparency about any such interests. Sorry, Julian, but Chuck had it _legally_ correctly, for the U.S.A.. As soon as someone so much as mentions 'investing' in a company, a whole bunch of rather draconian laws kick in about the offering of investment advice by someone affiliated with the investment entity. This has become very much of a 'hot button' issue in recent years, with a lot of new, *very*strict* laws being enacted, in part because of some of the recent major investment scandals, like Enron, AIG, etc.. Secondly, there is a matter of the 'company policy' of his employer with regard to employees giving 'investment advice' -- even if it is 'on their own time' -- about the company. Even if it isn't against the law, it could easily get him fired, instantly. Almost all publicly held companies (at least in the USA) have an 'investor relations' department, and those are the _only_ employees, other than the CEO, who are authorized give out investment-related information. Further, everything they _do_ give out has been (a) approved by senior management, and (b) 'vetted' by the legal department. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Wed 09 Mar 2011 at 14:00:37 PST Nerius Landys wrote: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? If memory serves, they've been heavily involved in the LLVM/Clang project. That said, see my other reply today about what buying stock is really all about. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:39:04 -0800 Charlie Kester corky1...@comcast.net articulated: On Thu 10 Mar 2011 at 05:51:06 PST Tom Worster wrote: and as far as investing in corporate stock is concerned, oss virtue (like environmental virtue or sweat shop virtue) is just so much marketing blather. a corporation's responsibility is to make money for its investors. business ethics is and always will be purely utilitarian. apple has good marketing but don't kid yourself. Unless you're buying newly-minted stock, you aren't giving any money to Apple when you buy shares of AAPL. You're giving money to some other person, who bought the shares a while ago and now wants to cash in. In turn, he might have bought them from another investor. In many cases, you have to go a long way back, sometimes all the way to the IPO, before the money goes to the company. They get money when they issue stock, not when it's traded. What you're doing when you buy stock -- especially stock that pays little or no dividends -- is placing a bet that sometime in the future you'll be able to find someone willing to buy it from you at a higher price than you paid. Moreover, the price of most stocks is determined solely by what people are willing to pay for them. Forget all that noise about sales forecasts, P/E, etc. There is no direct, causal connection between those fundamentals and the stock price. They're as pertinent as a baseball player's batting average is to the price of the bubblegum card with his picture on it. You're trading collectibles, and they're subject to the whims of fashion. In summary, I agree with what has been said about contributing to the FreeBSD Foundation if you really want to help the project. It's a much better use of your money. But if you'd rather trade baseball cards, no one's stopping you. Actually, if the individual buys stock, and there are different types, the purchaser has a possibility of making a profit on his investment. If the stock loses money, there is a real possibility of a tax write off. However, if he donates it to a properly certified organization for a tax write off, then that is all that they will ever receive. If the investor has no use for his money other than creating a tax write off, then that is fine. Of course, we have to keep in mind that the OP did not disclose a specific figure for his investment nor his income bracket, so everything is basically speculation as to what monetary help investing or donating would have on his financial health. He would probably be well advise to see a professional tax consultant prior to following either avenue. Personally, I donate to the Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center. I find donating money to help find a cure for a disease or aid those that have all ready contracted it far more satisfying that giving it away to a foundation in the hopes that someday, perhaps they will write a functioning driver for a wireless N device. -- Jerry ✌ freebsd.u...@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ It is always the best policy to tell the truth, unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar. Jerome K. Jerome ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Mark Felder f...@feld.me wrote: On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 17:31:32 -0600, Frank Shute fr...@shute.org.uk wrote: Apple produces the clusterfuck that is CUPS, I believe. Apple took over the CUPS project. They didn't write it. They're improving it a lot with every major OSX release, so I'm not sure why you're so upset. I think a lot of the hate for CUPS here is NIH syndrome. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
David Brodbeck writes: Apple produces the clusterfuck that is CUPS, I believe. Apple took over the CUPS project. They didn't write it. They're improving it a lot with every major OSX release, so I'm not sure why you're so upset. I think a lot of the hate for CUPS here is NIH syndrome. In my case, the hate is caused by the difficulty in configuration and trouble-shooting (and of course the related documentation mega-fail). Beyond that, it seems to work as advertised. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:53:47 -0800 David Brodbeck g...@gull.us articulated: On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Mark Felder f...@feld.me wrote: On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 17:31:32 -0600, Frank Shute fr...@shute.org.uk wrote: Apple produces the clusterfuck that is CUPS, I believe. Apple took over the CUPS project. They didn't write it. They're improving it a lot with every major OSX release, so I'm not sure why you're so upset. I think a lot of the hate for CUPS here is NIH syndrome. Seriously, it goes way, way beyond CUPS. Just look at the debauchery regarding a HAL replacement. Instead of the different distros creating a uniform replacement, they are each intent on reinventing the wheel with their own implementation. In the end, nobody gains and the status quo per se remains as fragmented as ever. -- Jerry ✌ freebsd.u...@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ It is always the best policy to tell the truth, unless, of course, you are an exceptionally good liar. Jerome K. Jerome ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Thu 10 Mar 2011 at 10:48:05 PST Jerry wrote: On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:39:04 -0800 Charlie Kester corky1...@comcast.net articulated: On Thu 10 Mar 2011 at 05:51:06 PST Tom Worster wrote: and as far as investing in corporate stock is concerned, oss virtue (like environmental virtue or sweat shop virtue) is just so much marketing blather. a corporation's responsibility is to make money for its investors. business ethics is and always will be purely utilitarian. apple has good marketing but don't kid yourself. Unless you're buying newly-minted stock, you aren't giving any money to Apple when you buy shares of AAPL. You're giving money to some other person, who bought the shares a while ago and now wants to cash in. In turn, he might have bought them from another investor. In many cases, you have to go a long way back, sometimes all the way to the IPO, before the money goes to the company. They get money when they issue stock, not when it's traded. What you're doing when you buy stock -- especially stock that pays little or no dividends -- is placing a bet that sometime in the future you'll be able to find someone willing to buy it from you at a higher price than you paid. Moreover, the price of most stocks is determined solely by what people are willing to pay for them. Forget all that noise about sales forecasts, P/E, etc. There is no direct, causal connection between those fundamentals and the stock price. They're as pertinent as a baseball player's batting average is to the price of the bubblegum card with his picture on it. You're trading collectibles, and they're subject to the whims of fashion. In summary, I agree with what has been said about contributing to the FreeBSD Foundation if you really want to help the project. It's a much better use of your money. But if you'd rather trade baseball cards, no one's stopping you. Actually, if the individual buys stock, and there are different types, the purchaser has a possibility of making a profit on his investment. I certainly wouldn't deny this. I said as much, when I talked about finding a buyer willing to pay more for the shares than you did. There are other ways to profit, as you've pointed out. I don't deny those either. My main point was that buying stock is usually an ineffective way to support a company that is doing something you like. At best, by bidding up the stock price, you increase the value of the portfolios held by the company's executives and board members. But whether they will interpret that increase in their wealth as a signal that they should do more of what you like is the big question. In Apple's case, I think they would be more likely to see it as a reason to do more of the proprietary and immensely profitable kind of things they've been doing with the iPhone. Giving the money to the FreeBSD Foundation sends a clearer signal about how you want it spent. Especially if you earmark it for a specific project. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Charlie Kester corky1...@comcast.netwrote: Especially if you earmark it for a specific project. You can't do that via a donation to the FreeBSD Foundation, only offer a suggestion. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 01:48:05PM -0500, Jerry wrote: Personally, I donate to the Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center. I find donating money to help find a cure for a disease or aid those that have all ready contracted it far more satisfying that giving it away to a foundation in the hopes that someday, perhaps they will write a functioning driver for a wireless N device. On the other hand, as computing technology continues to advance at an accelerating rate, we will increasingly see such technology serving an ever-more important role in reasearch within innumerable fields, including cancer research. Consider an analogy that should be familiar with sysadmins everywhere: You need to do something two or three times a day. To accomplish this task, you make a change to a configuration file, then issue a command like /etc/rc.d/foo restart. There are three possible changes you might need to make to the configuration file. It'll take you about twenty seconds to make the change, and another three to five seconds to issue that command and wait for the service to restart. You could spend up to twenty-five seconds for all this to happen, or you could write a script that takes a single argument specifying which of three edits you want to apply to the config file and, after making that change, restarts the service in question. This entire process of writing the script takes about five minutes, plus three to five to run your new script. Five minutes and five seconds is a lot longer than twenty-five seconds. . . . but your sum total time spent on each subsequent occasion is only that five seconds. By spending four and a half minutes or so up front, you save yourself (conservatively estimating) about five minutes within three weeks. This is what automation buys us -- and automation is what computers provide . . . very *easy* automation. I've rambled on about this subject to some extent in another venue: Code Reuse and Technological Advancement http://blogstrapping.com/?page=2011.060.00.28.21 My point, though, is sipmle. Initial investment in something that is not direct work on a goal that is important to you can, if it helps to automate the tasks that *do* work directly toward that goal, is often the wisest investment toward that end. This is why we have admin scripts instead of doing everything by hand every time. It is also why, all else being equal, I prefer to invest in the advancement of computing technology rather than picking and choosing between other things that are important to me (including research in cancer and Alzheimer's medical fields). Just as the script in my hypothetical example above automates not one, but *three* different (but related) use cases, investing in computing technology provides greater research leverage in not one, but *many* other fields. More to the point, because of some of the realities of code reuse as described in the above-mentioned essay *Code Reuse and Technological Advancement*, I make a point of focusing my efforts on copyfree licensed software such as the (majority of) the FreeBSD project. Your mileage may vary. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] pgpzzi3sLHFKc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 02:00:37PM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. A public company can't really have moral character. They are required to do whatever it takes to maximize profit for it's shareholders regardless of any moral considerations. Any ethical behaviour a public company may or may not display is determined by law and/or PR requirements. What I'm trying to say is that expecting a public company to be somehow inherently ethical or unethical is unreasonable (except Google and Facebook, of course, they're evil :D) Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? As far as I'm aware their free/open source software contributions are not strictly FreeBSD specific, but FreeBSD does benefit. Off the top of my head, there's the Grand Central Dispatch framework which got ported to FreeBSD, and the LLVM/Clang which will soon replace GCC as the system compiler in FreeBSD (both very cool stuff). I'd say that if your investment criterion is how much is company X giving back to the community, you could do a lot worse than Apple. Since you say you want to *invest* I won't try to persuade you to donate to the FreeBSD Foundation ;). -- No one should have to wait until after ten o'clock for his english muffin! -- Snoopy ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On 3/10/11 2:39 PM, Adam Vande More wrote: On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Charlie Kestercorky1...@comcast.netwrote: Especially if you earmark it for a specific project. You can't do that via a donation to the FreeBSD Foundation, only offer a suggestion. If the amount of money is large enough, I strongly suspect you could negotiate an exception to that -- --Jon Radel j...@radel.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
Sorry, Julian, but Chuck had it _legally_ correctly, for the U.S.A.. ... etc ... Thanks for the explanation Robert. Sad that people are not free to speak. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail plain text; Not quoted-printable, Not HTML, Not base 64. Reply below text sections not at top, to avoid breaking cumulative context. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Apple FreeBSD relationship
This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? - Nerius ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
Quoth Nerius Landys on Wednesday, 09 March 2011: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? - Nerius ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Better yet, just send the money to the FreeBSD Foundation. -- Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F http://chipsquips.com | http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com pgpdDljrTcbqO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
You could donate directly to the FreeBSD foundation, I'm sure... :) Nerius Landys nlan...@gmail.com wrote: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? - Nerius ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
The core of apple's os is built on top of darwin which is composed of BSD and others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) But everything you see in apple's os (that smooth UI) is not BSD, only the underlying core is. Better do some research of your own. On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Chip Camden sterl...@camdensoftware.comwrote: Quoth Nerius Landys on Wednesday, 09 March 2011: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? - Nerius ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Better yet, just send the money to the FreeBSD Foundation. -- Sterling (Chip) Camden | sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F http://chipsquips.com | http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com -- See my Google profile here http://www.google.com/profiles/sande.r.emie ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Mar 9, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Nerius Landys wrote: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? There are some/a few/several people working at Apple that play or used to play a large role in FreeBSD. So they were basically paying these people's salaries for their day job which allowed them to be active in FreeBSD. Also, there is some code put-back I believe. Most of what Apple used from FreeBSD was the userland and the kernel interface so that the Darwin kernel could be used with FreeBSD userland utilities that affect the kernel etc.Mac OS X uses a totally different underlying kernel and architecture but made a FreeBSD like kernel interface in order to be able to use certain sets of FreeBSD stuff. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 02:00:37PM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. Don't invest your cash in a company that has reached it's peak and is on it's way down after it's charismatic leader dies sooner rather than later. 2nd biggest company by cap after Exxon?! Can you say overpriced? You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? Apple produces the clusterfuck that is CUPS, I believe. They do also produce good stuff that is bsd licensed like GCD. But even if they produce magical pixie dust they're still overpriced. - Nerius Regards, -- Frank Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html pgpDbpngnaqYm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
Guess that depends on how one calculates the price. - Milo Hyson Chief Scientist CyberLife Labs, Inc. On Mar 9, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Frank Shute wrote: On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 02:00:37PM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: But even if they produce magical pixie dust they're still overpriced. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Mar 9, 2011, at 5:31 PM, Frank Shute wrote: Don't invest your cash in a company that has reached it's peak and is on it's way down after it's charismatic leader dies sooner rather than later. They said that at $50/share. At $100. At $200. At $300. And continue to say it at $350. There are a lot of smart people at Apple who have had nothing better to do the past 10 years than to study and learn from Steve Jobs. I'm waiting for $500. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dke...@hiwaay.net Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Mar 9, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: There are some/a few/several people working at Apple that play or used to play a large role in FreeBSD. So they were basically paying these people's salaries for their day job which allowed them to be active in FreeBSD. Also, there is some code put-back I believe. Of particular note was the contributions of patches to fix NFS race conditions. Plus tools to stress and duplicate those conditions. Most of what Apple used from FreeBSD was the userland and the kernel interface so that the Darwin kernel could be used with FreeBSD userland utilities that affect the kernel etc.Mac OS X uses a totally different underlying kernel and architecture but made a FreeBSD like kernel interface in order to be able to use certain sets of FreeBSD stuff. Believe a number of FreeBSD drivers made it into MacOS X. Don't know of any Apple product which used Intel Etherexpress Pro chipsets but I popped a PCI card in a Mac one day and it magically worked as if it had always been there. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dke...@hiwaay.net Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On 03/09/11 16:31, Frank Shute wrote: On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 02:00:37PM -0800, Nerius Landys wrote: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. Don't invest your cash in a company that has reached it's peak and is on it's way down after it's charismatic leader dies sooner rather than later. 2nd biggest company by cap after Exxon?! Can you say overpriced? You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? Apple produces the clusterfuck that is CUPS, I believe. They do also produce good stuff that is bsd licensed like GCD. But even if they produce magical pixie dust they're still overpriced. - Nerius Regards, At US$591.77 and little product in sight, I'd say nerd paramour Google is overpriced too. They're *all* defacto overpriced once one takes into consideration the price is set in large part by the herd mentality. Perhaps fortunately, this works for the underpriced stocks too. The trick is telling which is which. Always has been, unless you're Goldman Sachs. Apple bought CUPS for something like 20 million at some point in the not too distant past. It works great for me with an HP3600n and an HP laserjet4 but, if not for the 3600, I'd be on lpd again in a heartbeat. If you think CUPS is a clusterfuck now you should check out the sundry linux lists pre-sale date. The noobs were tearing their hair out. It's come a long way. The OP can invest where they'd like but like others I'd recommend a small gift to the FreeBSD Foundation. I make one every year at tax time. Feels good... Regards, r ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
On Mar 10, 2011, at 6:00 AM, Nerius Landys wrote: This is not a technical question. Basically I have some cash sitting around. I'm thinking of investing part of it with a company that I believe in. Apple came to mind. You could say that I'd like to judge Apple's moral character before investing money with them. Does anyone know how Apple reciprocates to FreeBSD? After all a lot of MacOSX is borrowed from FreeBSD. I am not seeing Apple's name on this page: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml . Are there other ways in which Apple might be reciprocating? - Nerius Apple has had a mixed relationship giving back to the BSD community. They did hire several developers over time and do have several projects that they have open sourced. Launchd iCal server are two of the bigger ones. I personally feel that they could do better and certainly could have done things differently in a way that would have helped the community and built an even stronger product base but let's face it they sure aren't listening to me. In recent years their marketing as gone to some lengths to scrub the references to BSD UNIX from the brochures. It's like they are ashamed of their roots, again personally I think they hired some new anti-geeks that just don't get it. I would suggest you look at spreading your investment around to several BSD supportive companies. Obviously Apple and Juniper pop up to the top of the list. I would have offered Isilon but they have been assimilated into the beast know as EMC so that may not be an option. At the end of the day they are a company, and companies must make money in order to survive. Therefore, do not get too attached to their BSD rhetoric because the winds of business can change direction at any moment. On a side note: I would love to find a comprehensive list of both public and private companies that are BSD supportive. Regards, Mikel King BSD News Network http://bsdnews.net skype: mikel.king http://twitter.com/mikelking ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Apple FreeBSD relationship
Hi-- #include std/disclaimer.h It wouldn't be considered appropriate for Apple employees or contractors (well, outside of the folks working in investor relations, perhaps) to try to persuade someone to invest in a particular company because of which open source projects Apple might be contributing towards. In another context, someone from Apple who was familiar with those contributions might be free to discuss them, but they would generally be expected to not identify their affiliation with Apple to avoid unduly influencing other people or creating a real or perceived conflict of interest. Someone who was looking for more information about this would find the investor relations page, corporate governance section, and the Business Conduct Policy documents informative, which are all publicly documented here: http://www.apple.com/investor/ http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=107357p=irol-govHighlights http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9NTQ1NTF8Q2hpbGRJRD0tMXxUeXBlPTM=t=1 (PDF warning) Regards, -- -Chuck ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
