Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:14:22 + Thomas Mueller mueller6...@bellsouth.net wrote: The argument is normally that even without a CD drive everyone has USB so should install using that instead of floppies. Not true on a very old computer (especially USB) That's why I said the argument, implying that it's something I don't agree with :) I do think we need to be careful to remember that plenty of people don't have modern setups. Also, boot-from-USB is not entirely standardized. In that regard it's sort of in the same position boot-from-CD was in in the 1990s. For example, Intel Macs won't boot from USB unless the drive has a GPT partition table. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Dec 8, 2010, at 9:07 PM, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:48:11 +1000, Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au wrote: On 12/08/10 11:26, Polytropon wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 00:09:24 +0100, Julian H. Staceyj...@berklix.com wrote: My comments/ wish list - One text mode (non bitmap graphical) browser:/usr/ports/www/lynx The lynx browser, due to its special key handling, does not appeal to novice users. NO text mode browser gives a first sight effect that will convince a user he's installing a modern OS. Sounds stupid, I know. As I said, the way the user interacts with the browser does determine how fast he gets through the installation. Learning the browser (instead of just pressing the keys shown on the screen) could make things look worse. On the other hand, with the ability of X to run without configuration on recent hardware, what's wrong with running X with a graphical web browser - if the user DECIDED that way? Of course, this decision is the FIRST step in the install process: Install method -- T - traditional text mode installer (sysinstall) (this one does not have all the options) W - web-based installer in text mode (typical for professional users) G - web-based installer in graphics mode (typical for novice users) R - remote installation (just starts the server) S - shell (dialog shell access to live system) Enter choice: _ Just a simple idea. I like that approach- works for me anyway... Let me add that it would be good to default do an action after a certain time (e. g. 60 seconds). This default should be the preparation for remote installation as this is the obvious choice when no interaction is done - because it maybe is not possible (like for headless servers). So you put in the installation media (CD or USB stick), wait a minute, and then remotely access the installer. Accessibility should be foremost at this level and above. I would also like to see it that way; sadly, market share oriented development doesn't share this thought. You can make money on all the healthy users, there's plenty of them. Users with disabilites are uninteresting, from a marketing point of view. Users in niche markets are uninteresting, too. The legalities themselves are becoming hairy these days, and considering the point that we are trying to push accessibility in terms of applications (such as issues with flash, to name one) using physical accessibility as a parallel argument we should be setting an example as well. Accessibility on the web is just one point. Operating systems, the backbones of all the dancing bunnies, should be a good example of how to make information accessible to the widest amount of people. This includes the idea of NOT cutting out those who do not have the ability to access a graphical installer: Not because they don't want to use it, but because they don't have the means to access it. That said, there is no reason why can't make it look as pretty as we can without compromising this principle :) GUI installer, remote access and not rising barriers does not contradict. If done properly, it can benefit both the professional users AND those who judge at first sight. -- Polytropon I'm going to weigh in now. :) If you want to install FreeBSD using X with a pretty GUI, you can do that today. Use a PC-BSD install DVD. There is a radio button in the installer to make it install plain FreeBSD. pc-sysinstall is in HEAD now, and it is completely functional. It's been doing PC-BSD and FreeBSD installs for a long time now. The way it works is it does an install based on a config file, so really the work on the front end is building a tool that will build a config file. The real issue is that you really want a volume and disk layout wizard of sorts. The ability to take some disks, maybe make a gmirror, or a ZFS RAIDZ, or even use glabel on a single disk, then layout some filesystems on that, then do the install. It turns out that this is really simple to do in a web app, and not quite so simple to do in curses. You want things like constraining choices based on previous input. For instance you can't make a RAID-Z from two devices. As far as floppy based installs and all of that, the last successful install via floppy that I can find documented was in the 3.x era, in the 90's. That was over 10 years ago. Booting from floppy is pretty rare these days, and I submit that a system that has no choice but to boot from floppy isn't going to be able to run FreeBSD 9 anyways. My Pentium Pro can't boot anything newer than 4.11, and *that* has USB ports. Anything with a chance of running FreeBSD 9 can boot from USB or PXE. If it's a small modern embedded system you're using dd to put an image on it's flash card. Other situations fall
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 01:58:04 +0100 Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: An example from my own practical use: I wanted to install FreeBSD 4 on a laptop that didn't have network or CD-ROM. I chose to boot from floppy, and then started the install process via parallel cable (printer port) from a second system, already running FreeBSD and exporting the install CD via plip. The argument is normally that even without a CD drive everyone has USB so should install using that instead of floppies. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 09:04:16 +, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote: The argument is normally that even without a CD drive everyone has USB so should install using that instead of floppies. That's not an argument, that's a dogma. :-) Especially when you want to use AT style hardware, maybe older laptops that should work as a kind of console device (serial console using the cu program), or older PCs that should run as a router, firewall, printer server or anything else that doesn't require a PlentyCore CPU and tenmelonhundred GB of RAM, taking into mind their very low power consumption, then you usually face the situation that you do NOT have - bootable network - USB - DVD (or at least CD-ROM) In such situations, you are happy to be able to boot from floppy (or floppies, that's okay too) and then perform an installation via network (or plip). Traditionally hardware of the AT and the early ATX times do not come with USB. And if they have USB, they can't boot from it. This sounds old-fashioned, I know. The strength of FreeBSD is that you actually COULD install it under this kind of circumstances - a strength other operating systems lack, especially when they call theirselves advanced. One could argument that it should be possible to extract the hard disk from such a kind of computer and use it in a different system that can boot NOT from floppy. But that may cause other problems (e. g. no (P)ATA connector in a SATA system, can't reach hard disk, can't open laptop, and so on). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
Bruce Cran wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 00:09:24 +0100 Julian H. Stacey j...@berklix.com wrote: FreeBSD has no instal...@freebsd.org list. Should it ? Only a few people tend to work on know the constraints of the installer, many people over years have have made suggestions comments, would it be more efficient if FAQs were auto archived easily found in an instal...@freebsd.org archive ? We've had freebsd-sysinst...@freebsd.org for a few months now. Oh ! Thanks, I'll subscribe, (I checked the list again last night, but me eye was indexing on I not S. Sorry). Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail plain text; Not quoted-printable, or HTML or base 64. Avoid top posting, it cripples itemised cumulative responses. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
Polytropon wrote: To: Julian H. Stacey j...@berklix.com I added back lost Cc: questi...@freebsd.org On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 10:46:29 +0100, Julian H. Stacey j...@berklix.com wrote: Allow me a side question, but... what's wrong with ee? (Don't get me wrong, I've been a long-term vi user myself.) VI has been on BSD since about 1979 or so I recall. EE breaks the principle of least surprise. But it as an on-top help screen. :-) Each install I do, ee annoys me at inetd.conf. If I remember correctly, earlier versions of FreeBSD I did install did have vi as default editor, I don't think so. I recall FreeBSD installer had no screen editor until Jordan looked for one that would fit the install without executable breaking floppy size constraints. But jkh@ was an emacs user by preference, had more important install issues, so ee was bundled in. I told him very quickly of 2 small vi clones, but too late. With floppy size constraints disappearing, we'll be free to consider options. even during installation. The change must have happened sometimes in the 5.x era. It obsoleted the initial /bin/ed, the standard editor (ed is the standard editor). For those who like to use vi, it's still part of the base installation. At least I hope this won't change, and also many system utilities pay attention to $EDITOR, which defaulted to /usr/bin/vi in the past. For those who are familiar with FreeBSD, or with UNIX in general, there is no problem using either vi or ed. For novice users, ee is definitely the better choice as it doesn't require them to learn anything prior to its use, as learning is generally considered unpleasant these days... :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail plain text; Not quoted-printable, or HTML or base 64. Avoid top posting, it cripples itemised cumulative responses. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
It's easy enough to find error-free floppy disks if you don't mind paying for them: http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8node=430460031 :) Bruce Cran Are you sure they're error-free? I think most users would prefer USB sticks. The argument is normally that even without a CD drive everyone has USB so should install using that instead of floppies. Not true on a very old computer (especially USB) On choice of text editor, I prefer vi, but that might be uncomfortable for users completely unfamiliar with vi: this includes many MS-Windows users as well as users coming from DOS. NetBSD uses ed on installation ramdisk, which leaves me completely floored. vi is heaven compared to ed. IBM had a Tiny Editor, not open-source, dating to 1993, .EXE about 1 bytes: this was for DOS and 16-bit OS/2 (OS/2 1.x was 16-bit, became 32-bit with v2.0). This was used on OS/2 installation floppies. Tom ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:14:22 + Thomas Mueller mueller6...@bellsouth.net wrote: The argument is normally that even without a CD drive everyone has USB so should install using that instead of floppies. Not true on a very old computer (especially USB) That's why I said the argument, implying that it's something I don't agree with :) I do think we need to be careful to remember that plenty of people don't have modern setups. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On 12/08/10 11:26, Polytropon wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 00:09:24 +0100, Julian H. Staceyj...@berklix.com wrote: My comments/ wish list - One text mode (non bitmap graphical) browser:/usr/ports/www/lynx The lynx browser, due to its special key handling, does not appeal to novice users. NO text mode browser gives a first sight effect that will convince a user he's installing a modern OS. Sounds stupid, I know. As I said, the way the user interacts with the browser does determine how fast he gets through the installation. Learning the browser (instead of just pressing the keys shown on the screen) could make things look worse. On the other hand, with the ability of X to run without configuration on recent hardware, what's wrong with running X with a graphical web browser - if the user DECIDED that way? Of course, this decision is the FIRST step in the install process: Install method -- T - traditional text mode installer (sysinstall) (this one does not have all the options) W - web-based installer in text mode (typical for professional users) G - web-based installer in graphics mode (typical for novice users) R - remote installation (just starts the server) S - shell (dialog shell access to live system) Enter choice: _ Just a simple idea. I like that approach- works for me anyway... - Still too complex for blind/ partially sighted people with special I/O phsical devs, I guess. Very true. The ability of FreeBSD to be a barrier-free (!!!) OS always made it a first class product. It would be sad if it would lose this ability in the future, just to cater the expected first sight effect newbies. :-) Accessibility should be foremost at this level and above. The legalities themselves are becoming hairy these days, and considering the point that we are trying to push accessibility in terms of applications (such as issues with flash, to name one) using physical accessibility as a parallel argument we should be setting an example as well. That said, there is no reason why can't make it look as pretty as we can without compromising this principle :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On 12/08/10 11:49, Chris Hill wrote: On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Julian H. Stacey wrote: [ snip ] - There are small clones of standard vi, with executables no larger than ee, could replace ee. I think ee is actually a good choice for this application. vi can be a little frustrating for those who rarely use it, and it's downright impenetrable to someone who has never seen it before. With ee, a newb has a fighting chance. I'll second that :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On 12/08/10 21:27, Bruce Cran wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:14:22 + Thomas Muellermueller6...@bellsouth.net wrote: The argument is normally that even without a CD drive everyone has USB so should install using that instead of floppies. Not true on a very old computer (especially USB) That's why I said the argument, implying that it's something I don't agree with :) I do think we need to be careful to remember that plenty of people don't have modern setups. Count me for one. I'm using old stuff for routing and what not- and no, they don't even see a usb keyboard let alone boot from usb :) I actually have to disconnect the dud slim cd and and strap in a spare internal cd, and remove it once installed. I could setup lan boot, but believe it or not that would be longer... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 23:48:11 +1000, Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au wrote: On 12/08/10 11:26, Polytropon wrote: On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 00:09:24 +0100, Julian H. Staceyj...@berklix.com wrote: My comments/ wish list - One text mode (non bitmap graphical) browser: /usr/ports/www/lynx The lynx browser, due to its special key handling, does not appeal to novice users. NO text mode browser gives a first sight effect that will convince a user he's installing a modern OS. Sounds stupid, I know. As I said, the way the user interacts with the browser does determine how fast he gets through the installation. Learning the browser (instead of just pressing the keys shown on the screen) could make things look worse. On the other hand, with the ability of X to run without configuration on recent hardware, what's wrong with running X with a graphical web browser - if the user DECIDED that way? Of course, this decision is the FIRST step in the install process: Install method -- T - traditional text mode installer (sysinstall) (this one does not have all the options) W - web-based installer in text mode (typical for professional users) G - web-based installer in graphics mode (typical for novice users) R - remote installation (just starts the server) S - shell (dialog shell access to live system) Enter choice: _ Just a simple idea. I like that approach- works for me anyway... Let me add that it would be good to default do an action after a certain time (e. g. 60 seconds). This default should be the preparation for remote installation as this is the obvious choice when no interaction is done - because it maybe is not possible (like for headless servers). So you put in the installation media (CD or USB stick), wait a minute, and then remotely access the installer. Accessibility should be foremost at this level and above. I would also like to see it that way; sadly, market share oriented development doesn't share this thought. You can make money on all the healthy users, there's plenty of them. Users with disabilites are uninteresting, from a marketing point of view. Users in niche markets are uninteresting, too. The legalities themselves are becoming hairy these days, and considering the point that we are trying to push accessibility in terms of applications (such as issues with flash, to name one) using physical accessibility as a parallel argument we should be setting an example as well. Accessibility on the web is just one point. Operating systems, the backbones of all the dancing bunnies, should be a good example of how to make information accessible to the widest amount of people. This includes the idea of NOT cutting out those who do not have the ability to access a graphical installer: Not because they don't want to use it, but because they don't have the means to access it. That said, there is no reason why can't make it look as pretty as we can without compromising this principle :) GUI installer, remote access and not rising barriers does not contradict. If done properly, it can benefit both the professional users AND those who judge at first sight. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 10:31:26 +, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote: There's a plan to replace sysinstall with pc-sysinstall, the PCBSD installer in 9.0. Currently the backend has been committed and people are working on a web interface frontend to allow people to do installations via a web browser. Does this imply that the installation requires running X plus a web browser, or a hard to use text mode web browser? Or is this intended to be used for remote installation only? Will the installer therefore be unusable for specific settings (headless, serial, text)? Meanwhile I'm hoping to find some time to improve sysinstall now that we don't support installation from floppies: I know there are some big improvements that can be made while not taking on the work of a complete rewrite. I agree that sysinstall could benefit from some improvements, especially the incorporation of the new partitioning methods, involving labels, ufsids, GEOM, GPT and PMBR, keeping the traditional methods MBR, fdisk, bsdlabel and newfs available for those systems that the user INTENDEDLY wants to install with those methods (e. g. older hardware). Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany I guess FreeBSD installation from floppies is no longer supported because of the difficulty of fitting the kernel? Otherwise, it would be theoretically possible to install FreeBSD from a lot of floppies, but finding sufficient errorfree floppies would be practically impossible. I remember I had a substantial percentage of bad floppies when I needed five to install DR-DOS in 1999. Floppies are now eleven years more advanced into deterioration. While installation and update via web browser makes sense as an option, it must not be the only option. What if the user starts with a blank hard drive, nothing installed? Then one needs to be able to install from CD, DVD or USB drive. I remember in the late 1990s updating OS/2 Warp 4 with a Service Pak via web browser (Web Explorer), so the idea isn't new. Yes, there needs to be support for installing into the new partitioning methods. Remember that thread I started about FreeBSD support for hard drive 2 TB? Western Digital has come out with up to 3 TB Caviar Green drive. Somebody might want to install FreeBSD and run a software repository on such a hard drive. Tom ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 11:29:09AM +, Thomas Mueller wrote: While installation and update via web browser makes sense as an option, it must not be the only option. What if the user starts with a blank hard drive, nothing installed? Then one needs to be able to install from CD, DVD or USB drive. If the user starts with a blank HDD then the installer loads from the CD/DVD, starts the web server on the disc and the user browses to the machine as normal. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 11:29:09 + Thomas Mueller mueller6...@bellsouth.net wrote: Otherwise, it would be theoretically possible to install FreeBSD from a lot of floppies, but finding sufficient errorfree floppies would be practically impossible. I remember I had a substantial percentage of bad floppies when I needed five to install DR-DOS in 1999. Floppies are now eleven years more advanced into deterioration. It's easy enough to find error-free floppy disks if you don't mind paying for them: http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8node=430460031 :) -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
Bruce Cran wrote: On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 11:29:09AM +, Thomas Mueller wrote: While installation and update via web browser makes sense as an option, it must not be the only option. What if the user starts with a blank hard drive, nothing installed? Then one needs to be able to install from CD, DVD or USB drive. FreeBSD has no instal...@freebsd.org list. Should it ? Only a few people tend to work on know the constraints of the installer, many people over years have have made suggestions comments, would it be more efficient if FAQs were auto archived easily found in an instal...@freebsd.org archive ? My comments/ wish list - One text mode (non bitmap graphical) browser: /usr/ports/www/lynx - Still too complex for blind/ partially sighted people with special I/O phsical devs, I guess. - There are small clones of standard vi, with executables no larger than ee, could replace ee. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Mail plain text; Not quoted-printable, or HTML or base 64. Avoid top posting, it cripples itemised cumulative responses. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 00:09:24 +0100 Julian H. Stacey j...@berklix.com wrote: FreeBSD has no instal...@freebsd.org list. Should it ? Only a few people tend to work on know the constraints of the installer, many people over years have have made suggestions comments, would it be more efficient if FAQs were auto archived easily found in an instal...@freebsd.org archive ? We've had freebsd-sysinst...@freebsd.org for a few months now. -- Bruce ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Tue, 07 Dec 2010 11:29:09 +, Thomas Mueller mueller6...@bellsouth.net wrote: I guess FreeBSD installation from floppies is no longer supported because of the difficulty of fitting the kernel? I think so, too. My interest is to be able to boot a system that does not boot from CD or via LAN. In this case, starting (!) the installation from floppy can work. An example from my own practical use: I wanted to install FreeBSD 4 on a laptop that didn't have network or CD-ROM. I chose to boot from floppy, and then started the install process via parallel cable (printer port) from a second system, already running FreeBSD and exporting the install CD via plip. While installation and update via web browser makes sense as an option, it must not be the only option. Please don't get me wrong: I see lots of potential in providing a web-based install. The downside, however, is that interaction WITH this frontend is done through the browser that is used, and therefore suffers from the disabilites of the browser. For example, lynx is a text mode browser that works well even via serial console - as soon as you KNOW how to interact with that browser! Keep in mind that the cursor keys often don't do what the novice user might assume they will do! So the accessibility of the browser has impact on how the installation process is performed. What if the user starts with a blank hard drive, nothing installed? Then one needs to be able to install from CD, DVD or USB drive. Exactly that is the usual starting point for a FreeBSD installation. :-) It's also worth mentioning that FreeBSD is considered to be an advanced OS because of the fact that it can turn old-fashioned or even outdated computers into usable things (routers, servers, workstations). This goal can only be met with providing maximum compatibility: This doesn't only include support for new partitioning methods, but also for old booting practices. Artificially rising a barrier by saying You need a graphics card, a mouse and 1 GB RAM to install this is not an option. As long as CHOICE is provided - no problem. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Wed, 08 Dec 2010 00:09:24 +0100, Julian H. Stacey j...@berklix.com wrote: My comments/ wish list - One text mode (non bitmap graphical) browser: /usr/ports/www/lynx The lynx browser, due to its special key handling, does not appeal to novice users. NO text mode browser gives a first sight effect that will convince a user he's installing a modern OS. Sounds stupid, I know. As I said, the way the user interacts with the browser does determine how fast he gets through the installation. Learning the browser (instead of just pressing the keys shown on the screen) could make things look worse. On the other hand, with the ability of X to run without configuration on recent hardware, what's wrong with running X with a graphical web browser - if the user DECIDED that way? Of course, this decision is the FIRST step in the install process: Install method -- T - traditional text mode installer (sysinstall) (this one does not have all the options) W - web-based installer in text mode (typical for professional users) G - web-based installer in graphics mode (typical for novice users) R - remote installation (just starts the server) S - shell (dialog shell access to live system) Enter choice: _ Just a simple idea. - Still too complex for blind/ partially sighted people with special I/O phsical devs, I guess. Very true. The ability of FreeBSD to be a barrier-free (!!!) OS always made it a first class product. It would be sad if it would lose this ability in the future, just to cater the expected first sight effect newbies. :-) - There are small clones of standard vi, with executables no larger than ee, could replace ee. Allow me a side question, but... what's wrong with ee? (Don't get me wrong, I've been a long-term vi user myself.) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Julian H. Stacey wrote: [ snip ] - There are small clones of standard vi, with executables no larger than ee, could replace ee. I think ee is actually a good choice for this application. vi can be a little frustrating for those who rarely use it, and it's downright impenetrable to someone who has never seen it before. With ee, a newb has a fighting chance. -- Chris Hill ch...@monochrome.org ** [ Busy Expunging | ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
Is there any intent to modify, hopefully improve, the installer program (sysinstall) for FreeBSD-9.0? I noticed something on the freebsd-questions emailing list about a pc-sysinstall, but downloaded a snapshot .iso of CURRENT-9.0 mainly to see what was there, not planning to install; am already running 8.1-RELEASE. Installer looked the same as for recent releases through 8.1; installation sets were broken into base.aa, base.ab, etc. (floppy-sized or a little less), rather than the easier-to-handle base.tbz (or .tgz), etc. Man page for sysinstall (FreeBSD 8.1) says it is overdue for end of life. Options are confusing. What is a standard installation? How many users are going to be able to get together enough good floppies to install that way? Tom ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 10:09:00 + Thomas Mueller mueller6...@bellsouth.net wrote: Is there any intent to modify, hopefully improve, the installer program (sysinstall) for FreeBSD-9.0? There's a plan to replace sysinstall with pc-sysinstall, the PCBSD installer in 9.0. Currently the backend has been committed and people are working on a web interface frontend to allow people to do installations via a web browser. Meanwhile I'm hoping to find some time to improve sysinstall now that we don't support installation from floppies: I know there are some big improvements that can be made while not taking on the work of a complete rewrite. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 10:31:26 +, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote: There's a plan to replace sysinstall with pc-sysinstall, the PCBSD installer in 9.0. Currently the backend has been committed and people are working on a web interface frontend to allow people to do installations via a web browser. Does this imply that the installation requires running X plus a web browser, or a hard to use text mode web browser? Or is this intended to be used for remote installation only? Will the installer therefore be unusable for specific settings (headless, serial, text)? Meanwhile I'm hoping to find some time to improve sysinstall now that we don't support installation from floppies: I know there are some big improvements that can be made while not taking on the work of a complete rewrite. I agree that sysinstall could benefit from some improvements, especially the incorporation of the new partitioning methods, involving labels, ufsids, GEOM, GPT and PMBR, keeping the traditional methods MBR, fdisk, bsdlabel and newfs available for those systems that the user INTENDEDLY wants to install with those methods (e. g. older hardware). -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Installer program for FreeBSD-9.0?
On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:13:19 +0100 Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: Does this imply that the installation requires running X plus a web browser, or a hard to use text mode web browser? Or is this intended to be used for remote installation only? Will the installer therefore be unusable for specific settings (headless, serial, text)? There's a discussion including the announcement at http://markmail.org/message/nlmq7yquevkpmb47 . But yes, I think you will need to use some sort of web browser unless someone writes a different frontend. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
