RE: Removal of item from archive
-Original Message- From: Jason Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:49 AM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Removal of item from archive I'll do some of the legwork here. Doing a simple google search on everstinc.com reveals a spammy, dodgy past. My guess is that Beth has been given the task of erasing this past so potential customers cannot see the truth about everestinc.com. See this post specifically to the freeBSD list back in 98: http://tinyurl.com/3osmm :-) That may be true but that was over 8 years ago after all. Perhaps they have changed. At least the fact that they want it erased shows that they aren't proud of their former spam anymore, which is a step in the right direction. Of course, an apology to the list for the spamming in the first place followed by an explanation stating that Mr. So-and-So who was pro-spamming had been fired, would be even better, but you can't expect too much. :-) Seriously, though, even though someone could find the posts on Google, that's not good enough for a removal. The person or organization requesting the removal absolutely must state precisely what they want removed if they have any chance of it happening. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Removal of item from archive
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:58 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Removal of item from archive Erik Trulsson writes: We sure did. We have gone through this several times over the last couple of years. So far the answer has always been the same: No. You can submit DMCAs to any organization hosting archives and using any equipment based in the U.S. (including any kind of telecommunications link), and to their upstream providers as required. You have to submit to U.S. jurisdiction as part of the process (no matter where you actually live). The DMCA doesen't apply here unless the post she wants to have removed was a copy protection circuvention device. (because the primary reason for the DMCA was to define electronically posted software as a device rather than as speech, thus taking it out of First Amendment protections.) Note of course that this hasn't yet been tried before the US Supreme Court, so the DMCA isn't the be-all and end-all of this argument by any means. And yes I am aware of the free speech sky-is-falling people who seem to think the DMCA applies to everything, this is false despite your frothing at the mouth about it. You can also sue organizations directly for copyright infringement (or file complaints for criminal infringement, although that might be hard to apply in many jurisdictions). That is how you would legally force the mailing list archive (at http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/) to remove the post. The only problem of course is that you would have a pretty weak case for several reasons, first you knew you were posting to a publically archived mailing list when you made the post, so you gave permission by your posting for it to be archived, second, assuming it's been posted for some time, without complaint, it would be difficult to prove that now you are suddenly suffering damages, so therefore no grounds to sue. And lastly, if SOMEONE ELSE makes a post to the list, and INCLUDES part of your post, they are doing so under Fair Use, and you CANNOT legally compel the archive owner to remove their post, because it is copyright by them. All you can do is sue them and if you win you can force them to sue the archive owners to remove their post - and if yet again a 3rd person included their post, then there is yet another person in the chain of lawsuits. So I think from a practical point of view suing anyone will go nowhere also. Beth, part of the problem here is that you have NEVER actually listed the post or posts you want removed in the archive, for example: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2005-February/075296 .html the above is a specific post. (not yours, by the way) Unless you reference the posts you have a problem with like this, nobody is going to go to the bother of doing your work for you. And if I was an archive owner I would ignore the kinds of fishing expedition requests you are making here - without listing the specific posts you could keep the owner running back and forth forever deleting post after post. Secondly, you are e-mailing the list itself, NOT the maintainers of the list. The list maintainers are [EMAIL PROTECTED] As is clearly spelled out on this webpage: http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions In my humble opinion, if you really want a specific post removed, and you have a GOOD reason for it, a polite e-mail to the list maintainer, listing the EXACT url of the post, would PROBABLY work. After all it's not like they would have to do a great deal of work ONCE YOU SPECIFIED the post. But continuing to mail this question to the actual list itself, as you seem to keep doing, while it serves to provide endless hours of amusement for the readers of the list, is pretty much a waste of time. This by the way is one of the fates of people like yourself who fail to READ THE DIRECTIONS. I'll bet you haven't bothered to read the owners manual of your car, either, yet you probably consider yourself a good driver. Uh huh. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Removal of item from archive
On 23/02/05 02:33 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Beth, part of the problem here is that you have NEVER actually listed the post or posts you want removed in the archive, for example: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2005-February/075296 .html the above is a specific post. (not yours, by the way) Unless you reference the posts you have a problem with like this, nobody is going to go to the bother of doing your work for you. And if I was an archive owner I would ignore the kinds of fishing expedition requests you are making here - without listing the specific posts you could keep the owner running back and forth forever deleting post after post. I'll do some of the legwork here. Doing a simple google search on everstinc.com reveals a spammy, dodgy past. My guess is that Beth has been given the task of erasing this past so potential customers cannot see the truth about everestinc.com. See this post specifically to the freeBSD list back in 98: http://tinyurl.com/3osmm The rest of the hits in google's usenet archive are to news.admin.net-abuse.usenet Jason ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Removal of item from archive
On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 09:54:57AM -0800, Beth Gibbs wrote: I request information on how to remove a message from the list. Please respond to this email address. Thank you. The simple answer is that you can't do it. (This list is archived by many different people all over the world. Removing a message from all those archives is essentially impossible.) -- Insert your favourite quote here. Erik Trulsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Removal of item from archive
On Tuesday 22 February 2005 11:52 am, Erik Trulsson wrote: On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 09:54:57AM -0800, Beth Gibbs wrote: I request information on how to remove a message from the list. Please respond to this email address. Thank you. The simple answer is that you can't do it. (This list is archived by many different people all over the world. Removing a message from all those archives is essentially impossible.) Didn't we go through this a few weeks ago? I could have sworn we did. As I recall, the answer at that time, after much debate about what constituted a copywrite and and other pertinent and non-pertinet opinions, was no. Don -- Donald J. O'Neill [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Removal of item from archive
On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 01:22:35PM -0600, Donald J. O'Neill wrote: On Tuesday 22 February 2005 11:52 am, Erik Trulsson wrote: On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 09:54:57AM -0800, Beth Gibbs wrote: I request information on how to remove a message from the list. Please respond to this email address. Thank you. The simple answer is that you can't do it. (This list is archived by many different people all over the world. Removing a message from all those archives is essentially impossible.) Didn't we go through this a few weeks ago? I could have sworn we did. We sure did. We have gone through this several times over the last couple of years. So far the answer has always been the same: No. As I recall, the answer at that time, after much debate about what constituted a copywrite and and other pertinent and non-pertinet opinions, was no. -- Insert your favourite quote here. Erik Trulsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Removal of item from archive
Erik Trulsson writes: We sure did. We have gone through this several times over the last couple of years. So far the answer has always been the same: No. You can submit DMCAs to any organization hosting archives and using any equipment based in the U.S. (including any kind of telecommunications link), and to their upstream providers as required. You have to submit to U.S. jurisdiction as part of the process (no matter where you actually live). You can also sue organizations directly for copyright infringement (or file complaints for criminal infringement, although that might be hard to apply in many jurisdictions). This requires considerable resources and determination but nothing absolutely prevents you from pursuing it. It would make an excellent test case and precedent, although a loss for the FreeBSD organization would most likely put it out of business. Although many parties have pointed out that archiving of mailing lists without explicit permission is infringement, I don't know of any suitable cases that have gone to court and to judgement and execution. The current trend towards ever more restrictive copyright laws would appear to favor plaintiff authors. All of this applies to materal to which you own the copyright. If you're not the copyright holder, about your only option is libel, which is quite difficult to prove in many cases. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
