Re: The FreeBSD Foundation
On Saturday 25 December 2004 06:26 pm, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: If I say you are right and wonderful will you drop this? Then consider it done, Ted. I'm sure you've impressed us all. Jay ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: The FreeBSD Foundation
-Original Message- From: Jay Moore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 12:03 AM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Foundation On Friday 24 December 2004 01:07 am, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Now, as for the Foundation's status as a charity: I'll start with asking you a simple question: Setting aside the legal definitions, what in your mind IS a charity, exactly? Hey look - I don't need a lecture about charity, and I'm not disputing that the foundation is legally classified as a charity. I never said that you were disputing the legal definition. But clearly you are disputing the idea that it is a charity. Yes, I am disputing that. It is not a charity except in the tax avoidance sense of the word. Hmm 'tax avoidance' another loaded phrase. Most conservatives would say that the government doesen't have the moral right to tax contributions to non-profits, so it's impossible to 'avoid' a tax that shouldn't exist in the first place. tax avoidance carries obvious criminal implications. You are attempting to twist the words and their meaning to support your agenda. Don't accuse me of what you are doing. I said that you could make a case against The FreeBSD Foundation if you wished to do so on a logical basis and I would respect that. You have chosen not to do that. Instead you are attempting to make an emotional case against The FreeBSD Foundation based on the alleged misuse of the word 'charity', a misuse that doesen't exist as I showed you. Go ahead and make a reasoned argument against The FreeBSD Foundation, the audience here is waiting for it. By playing the semantics game you aren't making any kind of case against anything. Under your selective interpretation of the definition, one could claim virtually anything as a gift for public benevolent purposes. It's bullshit, Ted, and you may deny it here in this forum, but you know it is. Naturally someone could misuse my selective interpretation of the word charity to claim anything. That isn't relevant to whether or not The FreeBSD Foundation is a charity. You seem to think it isn't and the only argument you have put forth is that a charity is only supposed to help the needy - but the term needy applies to what the Foundation happens to be doing with FreeBSD. Well, that is why I made the Robin Hood remark. I will point out that the FreeBSD Foundation in fact uses the actual term public charity on their website. And certainly the Foundation doesen't attempt to pass itself off as using the money to help the poor. I am aware that many people don't view a charity as anything more than a needy-person-helping apparatus. However I urge you to examine your view of the idea of 'need' There are many people out there also who feel that much of the 'need' served by charities isn't really need it is choice. Many people are incensed that some charities feed alcoholic bums that spend their nights sleeping in the streets. Many would weigh the 'need' of FreeBSD to have a good Java implementation against the 'need' of an alcoholic to continue to be fed day after day without quitting drinking, and feel that the FreeBSD need was greater. alcoholic bums?! Is this another example of your interpretation of charity? Are you really asking anyone to accept you as an authority on what charity means when you refer to alcoholics as bums? There are alcoholics and there are alcoholic bums, they are different types of alcoholics. That is why I used the term 'alcoholic bums' instead of just using the term 'alcoholics' Many charities help alcoholics who want to stop being alcoholics and only a Scrooge would take issue with this, IMHO. But some help alcoholics who don't want to get better. These alcoholics are bums. Sorry you don't like the term - do you have a better one for alcoholics that refuse treatment? I don't. And in any case why are you focusing on this in the first place and ignoring the definition of needy, which clearly is what that paragraph is about. In case you forgot to read the _entire_ definition of charity, Ted, try # 4: 4 : lenient judgment of others. Frankly, I find your arrogance annoying. Sorry to hear that. I have compassion for street people who want to stop being street people. I have none for any person who feels the world owes them a living and take handout after handout without ever even trying to better themselves. I submit that people who think this is arrogant are merely enabling those second type of street people, and actually, are doing more to harm those people in the long run. I'll say it again: I support FreeBSD through CD purchases, and would consider an outright cash donation. I think the project is a good thing, and I also think it serves the public good. But it's not a charity, No argument there the Project never has said it is a charity nor
Re: The FreeBSD Foundation
On Friday 24 December 2004 01:07 am, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Now, as for the Foundation's status as a charity: I'll start with asking you a simple question: Setting aside the legal definitions, what in your mind IS a charity, exactly? Hey look - I don't need a lecture about charity, and I'm not disputing that the foundation is legally classified as a charity. I never said that you were disputing the legal definition. But clearly you are disputing the idea that it is a charity. Yes, I am disputing that. It is not a charity except in the tax avoidance sense of the word. You are attempting to twist the words and their meaning to support your agenda. Under your selective interpretation of the definition, one could claim virtually anything as a gift for public benevolent purposes. It's bullshit, Ted, and you may deny it here in this forum, but you know it is. In my mind, I would consider it more like a not-for-profit organization; charities are organizations that help the needy - people who can't help themselves. Well, that is why I made the Robin Hood remark. I will point out that the FreeBSD Foundation in fact uses the actual term public charity on their website. And certainly the Foundation doesen't attempt to pass itself off as using the money to help the poor. I am aware that many people don't view a charity as anything more than a needy-person-helping apparatus. However I urge you to examine your view of the idea of 'need' There are many people out there also who feel that much of the 'need' served by charities isn't really need it is choice. Many people are incensed that some charities feed alcoholic bums that spend their nights sleeping in the streets. Many would weigh the 'need' of FreeBSD to have a good Java implementation against the 'need' of an alcoholic to continue to be fed day after day without quitting drinking, and feel that the FreeBSD need was greater. alcoholic bums?! Is this another example of your interpretation of charity? Are you really asking anyone to accept you as an authority on what charity means when you refer to alcoholics as bums? In case you forgot to read the _entire_ definition of charity, Ted, try # 4: 4 : lenient judgment of others. Frankly, I find your arrogance annoying. I'll say it again: I support FreeBSD through CD purchases, and would consider an outright cash donation. I think the project is a good thing, and I also think it serves the public good. But it's not a charity, and neither is the Foundation that supports the project. I don't think you're a good spokesman for the project or the Foundation, and I wish you'd drop this thread now. Jay ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The FreeBSD Foundation
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 17:37, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: Jay Moore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 3:32 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Foundation Yes - I buy from FreeBSD mall which I thought was run by Walnut Creek. I've had this subscription since 3.0 or 3.1... the cd's keep coming. I'd say if the new owners aren't giving the project the same cut as the previous owners, then maybe consider doing something else??? The story here actually begins back in 1978 when 1BSD was created by UCB's CSRG as a fork of UNIX6. The BSD project continued at UCB for snip Wow, that was a great bit of history, Ted. I love reading about the history of FreeBSD unix, almost as much as I love using FreeBSD! Cheers, -- Ian GPG Key: http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/imoore/imoore.asc pgpeYlMdGZBMk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: The FreeBSD Foundation
Ted Mittelstaedt explained it far better then I could have and I thank him for that. FreeBSD is an awesome thing indeed and one of the wonderful things is thatit is indeed free to the end user but really nothing is totally free, peoples time is worth something and the hardware they need to continue to develop is also not free. It is very easy to take things for granted. I know FreeBSD is _no where near_ going the way of the dodo but.. it can only make things so much better for everyone if everyone chipped in 5$ or whatever at least one time. Those who use this platform for there own financial gain. i.e. corporate webservers etc.. should really consider it as well. Buying CD's etc.. from freebsdmall.com really helps as well, every little thing counts!. Plus it is that time of the year! :) p.s. I'm aware that gmail destroys the 'flow' of email sometimes so I apologize in advance, nothing I can do about it. On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:34:37 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jay Moore Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:47 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Troy Mills Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Foundation On Wednesday 22 December 2004 11:02 am, Troy Mills wrote: As some of you may or may not know the FreeBSD Foundation supports the FreeBSD developers financially via funds mainly from donations from the public. Anyway there is a IRS 1/3rd test for public support and the current foundation ratio that is a little out of whack due to a few generous people donating large sums of money. I have no idea what will happen if they cannot remain a public charity but I'm sure the affects wont be positive as they clearly stated that it is in there interest to remain a public charity. I'm in no position to be shelling out lots of money right now but I'm going to do my part and I would hope that some of you chip in as well. from my understanding they need a larger number of people donating a smaller amount to correct the ratio. QUESTION: Do sales of the FreeBSD CDs support the project? And if so, now? I thought I _was_ supporting the project through my CD subscription... I was not aware of the FreeBSD Foundation (thanks for the enlightenment), but financial support for software developers of any kind seems a bit of a stretch for a charity. Perhaps I'm just not in tune with the legal definition of a charity. Hi Jay, The short answer to your question is it depends on who you buy your CD's from If you are buying them from http://www.freebsdmall.com then yes, they have provided significant support in the past and still do - in February 2004 they contributed $5K to The FreeBSD Foundation - and in the past, years ago when they were Walnut Creek CDROM they contributed far more support to the Project. If your buying from someone else that presses their own CD's then the answer is maybe. You would have to ask them. Keep in mind though that support comes in many forms other than just kicking money into a pot. Far more valuable is time spent answering questions. You might consider this for example - If you ever purchased my book you supported me, I in turn have answered numerous questions people have posted on the mailing lists, and have e-mailed me. For the people I've helped my assistance has been far more valuable to them than any money that anyone has contributed to the project. Now, as for the Foundation's status as a charity: I'll start with asking you a simple question: Setting aside the legal definitions, what in your mind IS a charity, exactly? Well, to a lot of people, a charity is simply a kind of accepted Robin Hood - it takes from the (willing) rich and gives to the poor and needy. But, this narrow definition isn't the dictionary definition of a charity, and it really isn't the general definition of a charity either. For example, take the Catholic Church. This is legally and in many people's eyes morally, a charity. Yet, while Catholic churches run ministries that help the poor, the Catholic Church is by no means giving everything it has to the poor - it's accounted the wealthiest organization on the face of the Earth, for starters, and there are many thousands of projects that Catholics do that aren't ministering to the poor and needy, but rather projects that are for the public good that benefit the general public. My definition of a charity, and the dictionary definition of a charity, is that a charity is an organization that administers a pot of money and talent that they dole out to not just needy people, but to people and groups that do what you call Good Works - that is, benevolent projects that have as sole purpose the benefit of the general public - ie: us. So on to your question about why are we paying software developers? Well it's like
Re: The FreeBSD Foundation
On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 10:11:14AM -0500, Troy Mills wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt explained it far better then I could have and I thank him for that. FreeBSD is an awesome thing indeed and one of the wonderful things is thatit is indeed free to the end user but really nothing is totally free, peoples time is worth something and the hardware they need to continue to develop is also not free. It is very easy to take things for granted. I know FreeBSD is _no where near_ going the way of the dodo but.. it can only make things so much better for everyone if everyone chipped in 5$ or whatever at least one time. Those who use this platform for there own financial gain. i.e. corporate webservers etc.. should really consider it as well. Buying CD's etc.. from freebsdmall.com really helps as well, every little thing counts!. if the freebsdfoundation set up a paypal button and asked $5, i'd chip in my niickle. i bet at least thousands of others would too. season's greeting:), everbody, gary -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public service Unix ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The FreeBSD Foundation
On Thursday 23 December 2004 04:34 am, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: On Wednesday 22 December 2004 11:02 am, Troy Mills wrote: As some of you may or may not know the FreeBSD Foundation supports the FreeBSD developers financially via funds mainly from donations from the public. Anyway there is a IRS 1/3rd test for public support and the current foundation ratio that is a little out of whack due to a few generous people donating large sums of money. I have no idea what will happen if they cannot remain a public charity but I'm sure the affects wont be positive as they clearly stated that it is in there interest to remain a public charity. QUESTION: Do sales of the FreeBSD CDs support the project? And if so, now? I thought I _was_ supporting the project through my CD subscription... I was not aware of the FreeBSD Foundation (thanks for the enlightenment), but financial support for software developers of any kind seems a bit of a stretch for a charity. Perhaps I'm just not in tune with the legal definition of a charity. Hi Jay, The short answer to your question is it depends on who you buy your CD's from If you are buying them from http://www.freebsdmall.com then yes, they have provided significant support in the past and still do - in February 2004 they contributed $5K to The FreeBSD Foundation - and in the past, years ago when they were Walnut Creek CDROM they contributed far more support to the Project. Yes - I buy from FreeBSD mall which I thought was run by Walnut Creek. I've had this subscription since 3.0 or 3.1... the cd's keep coming. I'd say if the new owners aren't giving the project the same cut as the previous owners, then maybe consider doing something else??? Now, as for the Foundation's status as a charity: I'll start with asking you a simple question: Setting aside the legal definitions, what in your mind IS a charity, exactly? Hey look - I don't need a lecture about charity, and I'm not disputing that the foundation is legally classified as a charity. In my mind, I would consider it more like a not-for-profit organization; charities are organizations that help the needy - people who can't help themselves. And by the way - that IS the dictionary definition of a charity. I'm not sure what dictionary you're reading from. Well, to a lot of people, a charity is simply a kind of accepted Robin Hood - it takes from the (willing) rich and gives to the poor and needy. But, this narrow definition isn't the dictionary definition of a charity, and it really isn't the general definition of a charity either. For example, take the Catholic Church. This is legally and in many people's eyes morally, a charity. Yet, while Catholic churches run ministries that help the poor, the Catholic Church is by no means giving everything it has to the poor - it's accounted the wealthiest organization on the face of the Earth, for starters, and there are many thousands of projects that Catholics do that aren't ministering to the poor and needy, but rather projects that are for the public good that benefit the general public. Oh my goodness - now that's an interesting comparison: FreeBSD Foundation and the Catholic church. My Dad was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland - so this analogy has convinced me to give :) My definition of a charity, and the dictionary definition of a charity, is that a charity is an organization that administers a pot of money and talent that they dole out to not just needy people, but to people and groups that do what you call Good Works - that is, benevolent projects that have as sole purpose the benefit of the general public - ie: us. So on to your question about why are we paying software developers? Well it's like this. There are things that are part of FreeBSD that need to be done and have as a benefit, the entire FreeBSD project, and in fact, anyone who uses FreeBSD. And, as FreeBSD moves more and more away from a pure hobbiest operating system and becomes a player in the commercial sector, increasingly these things are issues with commercial software. For example, every time that one of the Ziff-Davis ragazines does yet another tired 'bake-off' contest between Windows and FreeBSD, somebody from the FreeBSD camp must spend a lot of time hand-holding the moron writers that write the bake-off articles. Who is that person going to be? Will it be some young, but inexperienced FreeBSD advocate who is very eager to do it and will do it for free? Or will it be some experienced FreeBSD person who's time is expensive, and in order to do it will have to tell paying clients to wait an extra week? Which one of these people do you think is going to help FreeBSD score higher? Software companies that are contemplating porting their commercial projects to UNIX versions, they read these tired bake-off contests. And they aren't going to spend money on an operating system that
