Re: freebsd install from floppy

[Polytropon]

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 13:58:07 -0800, Walt Pawley  wrote:
> At 1:28 PM -0500 3/6/10, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> 
> >While I think floppy drives are still useful for BIOS updates and the
> >like, it's not just Apple that isn't selling machines with floppy
> >drives any more.  Go to HP or Dell and try to buy a new machine with a
> >floppy drive-- they don't sell them anymore, either...
> 
> I certainly can't argue that modern machines typically have
> floppy drives ... even if the motherboard supports one.
> 
> So what?

I think he wanted to point out that even if motherboards
today still support floppy disk drives, the computer itself
often does omit one. Instead, a blank cover is used for
the intended slot, or a SD + CF + who knows what reader
comes built-in.

This, of course, doesn't stop you from building one (or
two) into your box. But manufacturers seem to have agreed
that - especially in the home consumer market, which is
their most important playing field - floppies aren't
used anymore.

But soon, the ability to connect a floppy will disappear.
First, the connectors will vanish, followed by the
functionality within the hardware (e. g. BIOS) to
access them.

You find such a situation in notebooks. They don't have
floppy drives for many years now, and the only way to
access floppies with them is to buy (!) an external drive,
usually USB based. (I had such a situation with a customer
who needs floppy support, but had to buy a new notebook.
Imagine his surprise! While home customers already have
accepted that there are no floppies anymore, corporate
customers that work in a specific field still rely on
their presence.)



> Not everyone in the world throws their three year old
> computer in the trash so they can stay "up to date."

Average home consumers do. In fields where it is important
to have access to data and programs for much longer time,
you often don't find PCs, e. g. in the (still alive) mainframe
area, notably IBM's.



> I, for one,
> find it very annoying that new versions of software which once
> worked just fine on equipment I still use every day no longer
> work in their current incarnations.

That's a feeling I had, too, when upgrading my home system
from a perfectly working (until the total crash) 5.4 to 7.0,
from XFree86 to X.org. Lots of things had to be done, and
the observation that if you update things on FreeBSD, they
get better and faster, doesn't seem to be confirmed this
time (except for the OS) - speed down, usability down, overhead
up. But that, what we mostly call "bloat", be it in hardware
or in software, seems to be a needed motor for development,
at least I have been told that. :-)

It's a bit scary that the 300 MHz P2 (FreeBSD 5 and apps)
works much faster than my 2000 MHz P4 (FreeBSD 7 and apps).



> Delving into several such
> cases, I've found comments to the effect that functions are
> removed because no one uses the old stuff (ie. three years
> old) any more.

THere are still situations where you depend on three (or thirteen)
years old stuff, especially in data analytics and forensics.

The common situation, especially with home users, is to
constantly migrate data from one format to another (again,
this may mean file format as well as storage media), to
keep them accessible.

By the way, I have floppies older than twenty (20!) years
that work perfectly - that's much longer as a "modern" DVD
driver works. :-)

This leads me to my conclusion again: The older something
is, the longer it lasts. Mostly.




-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[Walt Pawley]

At 1:28 PM -0500 3/6/10, Chuck Swiger wrote:

>While I think floppy drives are still useful for BIOS updates and the
>like, it's not just Apple that isn't selling machines with floppy
>drives any more.  Go to HP or Dell and try to buy a new machine with a
>floppy drive-- they don't sell them anymore, either...

I certainly can't argue that modern machines typically have
floppy drives ... even if the motherboard supports one.

So what?

Not everyone in the world throws their three year old
computer in the trash so they can stay "up to date." I, for one,
find it very annoying that new versions of software which once
worked just fine on equipment I still use every day no longer
work in their current incarnations. Delving into several such
cases, I've found comments to the effect that functions are
removed because no one uses the old stuff (ie. three years
old) any more.
-- 

Walter M. Pawley 
Wump Research & Company
676 River Bend Road, Roseburg, OR 97471
 541-672-8975
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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[Chuck Swiger]

On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:44 PM, James Phillips wrote:
Correction: Apple stopped selling computers with floppy drives about  
10 years ago. The floppy drive is not obsolete because there is  
still no viable replacement that has the same (or better)  
functionality.


While I think floppy drives are still useful for BIOS updates and the  
like, it's not just Apple that isn't selling machines with floppy  
drives any more.  Go to HP or Dell and try to buy a new machine with a  
floppy drive-- they don't sell them anymore, either...


The problem with USB sticks is that they don't have user-accessible  
write-protect tabs. If you plug a USB stick into a compromised  
system, it is "tainted."



Some USB flash drives have write-protect switches:

  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820141486

Regards,
--
-Chuck

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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[James Phillips]

> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 09:54:38 +
> From: Matthew Seaman 
> Subject: Re: freebsd install from floppy
> To: per...@pluto.rain.com
> Cc: questi...@freebsd.org,
> plukaw...@gmail.com
> Message-ID: <4b92265e.5030...@infracaninophile.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 06/03/2010 09:26:22, per...@pluto.rain.com
> wrote:
> > I seem to remember something about the floppy images
> being dropped
> > because few current (or even recent) systems have a
> floppy drive at
> > all, much less a bootable one.
> 
> Yeah, but the floppy disk drive was already obsolete 10
> years ago.  It's
> just taken this long for it to fall down dead.  Good
> riddance to it.
> Why would anyone want an unreliable, slow and tiny capacity
> device when
> you can get GiB capacity USB sticks everywhere nowadays?
> 

Correction: Apple stopped selling computers with floppy drives about 10 years 
ago. The floppy drive is not obsolete because there is still no viable 
replacement that has the same (or better) functionality.

The problem with USB sticks is that they don't have user-accessible 
write-protect tabs. If you plug a USB stick into a compromised system, it is 
"tainted."

Secure Digital Cards have a write-protect tab, but "Secure" means "secure 
against copying" (Copy Protection for Recordable Media), making them 
inappropriate for "known good" filesystem images.

I have started using CD-ROM booting to install FreeBSD. The problem with CD-R 
images is that any "tweaks" to the disk image require burning a new disk.

Regards,

James Phillips

Recent Slashdot exchange about exactly this issue:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1565678&cid=31302916




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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[Polytropon]

On Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:24:30 +0100, Piotr Lukawski  
wrote:
> In many situations, especially for and old or non standard equipment
> floppies are the best or even the only solution.
> [...]
> The decision to make floppies obsolete is very bad, because it is still
> needed by many people.

Sometimes you simply stick with systems that just work,
even if they are 10 years old - and older. So a machine
with no USB support can likely exist. It gets even more
interesting if you need to read and write floppies to
keep computer systems alive for a museum (see 5,25"
floppies). Sometimes, a floppy is completely sufficient
and easy to use, e. g. when transfering some config
files to a system without network and USB; the tar
utility can be used to directly operate on floppies,
which is very useful, and maybe even faster than using
USB (device detection, mounting etc.).

So when booting via CD, USB or network isn't possible,
what are the options?

Okay, with FreeBSD, you can extract the hard disk,
place it into a different computer and then install
the OS there; retransfer the hard disk to the original
computer and everything should work from now on.
(Special hardware may require additional configuration,
but the base system doesn't care on what kind of
hardware it is running, basically.)

The reason to still use such old systems can be very
different, for example "just works" is one of the main
reasons. Others may include accurate and reliable
working, or less power consumption. (One thing that
I could observe over the years: The older hardware
is, the longer it works - mostly.) Another reason
could be the idea of resisting to buy something new
that does the same as the old stuff, an action that
costs money and creates electronic waste.

I still have such a system which I keep for nostalgia
mostly: It introduced me to FreeBSD: A 150MHz P1
with 128 MB SDR-SDRAM, SCSI CD (which I can't boot
from), no USB, but Ethernet (which I also can't
boot from), and it's in a perfect condition, still
usable as a workstation. It does nearly everything
my current workstation (P4, 2GHz) can do, and some
of the things even faster. I'm sure most of you can't
even imagine that. :-)

FreeBSD has always impressed me by providing working (!)
drivers for older stuff that still works, e. g. SCSI
PCI cards, SCSI scanners and PD drives. Most hardware
works out of the box, and for very special cases, there
are modules or kernel options.

And why use FreeBSD? Because it runs faster on the same
hardware with every new release. That's something
other operating systems can't do. Settings where you
update your software, then need to update your hardware,
and then still don't feel that anything is faster at
all, are known.

If floppy images aren't included on the install CD / DVD
or via FTP, then at least there should be a simple means
to generate them, e. g. "make floppies".

I wouldn't like to see floppies disappear for, let's say,
the next 10 years, as much as I dislike floppy media per
se.

By the way, their form factor is superior to CDs and
DVDs in every concern! Give the world a rewritable optical
media the size of a Minidisc and the world is yours.
I don't like the idea that I need a drive with the size
of a full-featured computer to use media that dissolves
chemically and gets unreadable if touched with the finger
on the wrong side. :-)


-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[Piotr Lukawski]

In many situations, especially for and old or non standard equipment
floppies are the best or even the only solution.
Actually if I haven't found the solution to use floppy to install FreeBSD, I
would be forced to use another system eg. OpenBSD instead, even if I prefer
FreeBSD.
The decision to make floppies obsolete is very bad, because it is still
needed by many people.

On 6 March 2010 10:54, Matthew Seaman wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 06/03/2010 09:26:22, per...@pluto.rain.com wrote:
> > I seem to remember something about the floppy images being dropped
> > because few current (or even recent) systems have a floppy drive at
> > all, much less a bootable one.
>
> Yeah, but the floppy disk drive was already obsolete 10 years ago.  It's
> just taken this long for it to fall down dead.  Good riddance to it.
> Why would anyone want an unreliable, slow and tiny capacity device when
> you can get GiB capacity USB sticks everywhere nowadays?
>
> Not providing floppy disk installation images doesn't imply dropping
> kernel support for floppy drives.  My ancient system has a floppy, and
> if I blew the dust out of it and could find some media it should work
> just fine with FreeBSD 8.0.
>
> In fact, if you need to support older equipment, free OSes like FreeBSD
> are really your only choice.  Drivers for old devices tend to stick
> around in the source tree for much longer than in any commercial
> offering.  They might suffer from bit-rot due to lack of developer
> access to samples of kit, but if you really need something like that
> fixed you probably could get patches.  In fact, I think the primary
> reason for dropping old device drivers is usually because they don't
> receive any attention during the occasional code refactoring that
> occurs: no one complains, and the device sits around unusable or needing
> special backwards compatibility shims for a while, then gets quietly
> deleted.
>
>
>
>
> - --
> Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.   7 Priory Courtyard
>  Flat 3
> PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
>  Kent, CT11 9PW
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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[Matthew Seaman]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 06/03/2010 09:26:22, per...@pluto.rain.com wrote:
> I seem to remember something about the floppy images being dropped
> because few current (or even recent) systems have a floppy drive at
> all, much less a bootable one.

Yeah, but the floppy disk drive was already obsolete 10 years ago.  It's
just taken this long for it to fall down dead.  Good riddance to it.
Why would anyone want an unreliable, slow and tiny capacity device when
you can get GiB capacity USB sticks everywhere nowadays?

Not providing floppy disk installation images doesn't imply dropping
kernel support for floppy drives.  My ancient system has a floppy, and
if I blew the dust out of it and could find some media it should work
just fine with FreeBSD 8.0.

In fact, if you need to support older equipment, free OSes like FreeBSD
are really your only choice.  Drivers for old devices tend to stick
around in the source tree for much longer than in any commercial
offering.  They might suffer from bit-rot due to lack of developer
access to samples of kit, but if you really need something like that
fixed you probably could get patches.  In fact, I think the primary
reason for dropping old device drivers is usually because they don't
receive any attention during the occasional code refactoring that
occurs: no one complains, and the device sits around unusable or needing
special backwards compatibility shims for a while, then gets quietly
deleted.




- -- 
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.   7 Priory Courtyard
  Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
  Kent, CT11 9PW
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iEYEARECAAYFAkuSJl4ACgkQ8Mjk52CukIxSWACfSkJ6k09ig0sR5lctO7tooF1k
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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[perryh]

Piotr Lukawski  wrote:
> ... I really cannot understand why nobody can change
> just one parameter and put the file in a proper place in
> ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/8.0-RELEASE/floppies/

I seem to remember something about the floppy images being dropped
because few current (or even recent) systems have a floppy drive at
all, much less a bootable one.

I sure hope they don't start applying the same reasoning to drivers
for old-ish devices.  Some of us do not rush out and acquire
the latest/greatest whiz-giz every few months just because it's
available.
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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[ill...@gmail.com]

On 5 March 2010 13:51, Piotr Lukawski  wrote:
> On 4 March 2010 05:51, ill...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> On 3 March 2010 07:33, Piotr Lukawski  wrote:
>> > Dears,
>> > I need to install Freebsd 8.0 using floppy and then ftp, but there are
>> > no
>> > floppy images
. . .
>> > Could you please produce install floppy images for Freebsd 8.0? Please
>> > please please. I have no power to do the install of 7, upgrade and fail
>> > again :-(
>>
>> Have you tried installing 8.0-RELEASE from your
>> 7.x floppies?  I have heard rumour that it is possible
>> by just changing the release name under "View/Set
>> Various Installation Options".
>>
> Illoai,
> Thanks a lot! Your solution works - system is up and running now :-)
> However, in such a case I really cannot understand why nobody can change
> just one parameter and put the file in a proper place in
> ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/8.0-RELEASE/floppies/.
> It can simplify life for many people.
>

I'm glad it worked for you. :)

I'm not aware of why the floppy images are no longer
being generated, however, just repackaging the 7.x
floppies is probably not the best idea:  you can select
a couple of options under 7.x that will likely break an
8.x install (I'm under the impression that "Dangerously
Dedicated" disks do this).

-- 
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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[Piotr Lukawski]

Illoai,
Thanks a lot! Your solution works - system is up and running now :-)
However, in such a case I really cannot understand why nobody can change
just one parameter and put the file in a proper place in
ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/8.0-RELEASE/floppies/
.
It can simplify life for many people.
Thanks again for your help.
Take care,
Piotr

On 4 March 2010 05:51, ill...@gmail.com  wrote:

> On 3 March 2010 07:33, Piotr Lukawski  wrote:
> > Dears,
> > I need to install Freebsd 8.0 using floppy and then ftp, but there are no
> > floppy images in
> > ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/8.0-RELEASE/floppies/<
> ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/8.0-RELEASE/floppies/
> >mentioned
> > in
> >
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-pre.html
> > I tried so install Freebsd 7 using availiable floppy (successful) and
> update
> > it to 8.0 (after 3 days finally error and now now whole /usr directory so
> I
> > am stacked).
> > Could you please produce install floppy images for Freebsd 8.0? Please
> > please please. I have no power to do the install of 7, upgrade and fail
> > again :-(
> > Thanks in adavance.
> > Piotr
>
> Have you tried installing 8.0-RELEASE from your
> 7.x floppies?  I have heard rumour that it is possible
> by just changing the release name under "View/Set
> Various Installation Options".
>
> --
> --
>
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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[herbert langhans]

On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 01:33:52PM +0100, Piotr Lukawski wrote:
> Dears,
> I need to install Freebsd 8.0 using floppy and then ftp, but there are no
> floppy images in
>
+ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/8.0-RELEASE/floppies/mentioned
> in
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-pre.html
> I tried so install Freebsd 7 using availiable floppy (successful) and update
> it to 8.0 (after 3 days finally error and now now whole /usr directory so I
> am stacked).
> Could you please produce install floppy images for Freebsd 8.0? Please
> please please. I have no power to do the install of 7, upgrade and fail
> again :-(
> Thanks in adavance.
> Piotr
> ___

Yes, I definitly vote for the release of floppy images too! In my case its the 
SCSI-CD drives what do not allow me to boot from a CD.

It might be old fashioned, but its very easy just to boot the floppy and then 
install all over ftp! I guess there are still a couple of systems (old
+laptops, servers) which require it.

Thanks
herb langhans


-- 
sprachtraining langhans
herbert langhans, warschau
http://www.langhans.com.pl
herbert dot raimund at gmx dot net
+0048 603 341 441

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Re: freebsd install from floppy

[ill...@gmail.com]

On 3 March 2010 07:33, Piotr Lukawski  wrote:
> Dears,
> I need to install Freebsd 8.0 using floppy and then ftp, but there are no
> floppy images in
> ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/8.0-RELEASE/floppies/mentioned
> in
> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/install-pre.html
> I tried so install Freebsd 7 using availiable floppy (successful) and update
> it to 8.0 (after 3 days finally error and now now whole /usr directory so I
> am stacked).
> Could you please produce install floppy images for Freebsd 8.0? Please
> please please. I have no power to do the install of 7, upgrade and fail
> again :-(
> Thanks in adavance.
> Piotr

Have you tried installing 8.0-RELEASE from your
7.x floppies?  I have heard rumour that it is possible
by just changing the release name under "View/Set
Various Installation Options".

-- 
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