Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com wrote: MSDOS/PCDOS had no _documented_ functions to directly access the disks, bypassing the file system, but the functions _did_ exist. I'm sure you can provide the DOS 'function number' for those calls, and cites to published data confirming. They may have involved a dedicated INT or two, e.g. INT 25H and/or INT 26H, rather than INT 21H with a function number in AX. I could have provided specifics 25 years ago :) when I was involved with this stuff on a daily basis. I have no idea whether it was ever published, but it was well known to those of us who were using it in system-level utilities. The debugger's read sector and write sector commands used them, and I suspect chkdsk, scandisk, and format probably also used them although I never had occasion to verify one way or the other. My experince in porting MSDOS 3.1 to a non pc-clone architecture was that fdisk, format, chkdsk, debug, and sys all invoked INT 13H directly. I've got you beat in seniority :) I was mostly working on 2.x, and got out of the business somewhere around 3.1 or 3.2. I think I'd remember if our stuff had quit working when 3.x came along, but it's possible that those interfaces were only retained for compatibility -- to avoid breaking old 3rd-party code -- and that the MS userland had been revised to call the BIOS directly (since by then the market consisted almost entirely of PCs and clones -- decidedly not the case in the 2.0-2.1 timeframe). BTW fdisk _would_ always have had to use BIOS calls, or some other platform-specific mechanism, since the direct disk access in DOS was restricted to the DOS partition(s). The parameters were something like buffer address, logical drive number (0 = A:, 2 = C:, etc.), starting sector within the logical drive, and number of sectors. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
I could have provided specifics 25 years ago :) when I was involved with this stuff on a daily basis. I have no idea whether it was same as me. still it is off topic. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Regarding the security of various methods of deleting data, I just saw in Office Depot's online ad for the coming week, which is the reason I couldn't post this any earlier: Need to discard an old PC but worried about protecting your identity? Let us securely erase your personal files and pictures for only $49.99. We use the only permanent data deletion software certified by NIAP, used by the Department of Defense and Fortune 500 Companies. (quoting verbatim but formatting not preserved) URL was http://officedepot.shoplocal.com/OfficeDepot/BrowseByPage?storeid=2501355promotionviewmode=1promotioncode=OfficeDepot-120722listingid=0sneakpeek=N# Personally, I'd save the money, time and gasoline too, and use dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/(disk-to-be-deleted) bs=1M from FreeBSD or other (quasi)-Unix OS. Or if that's not good enough, DBAN which is on the System Rescue CD (sysresccd.org). I suppose the average MS-Windows user is not aware of these money-saving methods. Tom ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 05:52:17 -0400 From: Thomas Mueller muelle...@insightbb.com Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? Regarding the security of various methods of deleting data, I just saw in Office Depot's online ad for the coming week, which is the reason I couldn't post this any earlier: Need to discard an old PC but worried about protecting your identity? Let us securely erase your personal files and pictures for only $49.99. We use the only permanent data deletion software certified by NIAP, used by the Department of Defense and Fortune 500 Companies. (quoting verbatim but formatting not preserved) URL was http://officedepot.shoplocal.com/OfficeDepot/BrowseByPage?storeid=2501355; promotionviewmode=1promotioncode=OfficeDepot-120722listingid=0sneakpeek =N# Personally, I'd save the money, time and gasoline too, and use dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/(disk-to-be-deleted) bs=1M from FreeBSD or other (quasi)-Unix OS. Needless to say, that approach doesn't work under Windows. grin For *most* users, that approach _is_ probably adewuate. *if* the have the know-how to use it. However, for a _lot_ of end users, the situation is not quite that simple. Trying to wipe the disk that the O/S is running from is fraught with unexpected failure modes. Lots of 'end user' machines have only _one_ drive in them, and the users do not have any other 'bootable' media available, that they know how to use. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Personally, I've always used a product from http://www.jetico.com/. On Sunday, July 22, 2012 at 17:06:04 UTC, g...@ross.cx confabulated: On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 17:08:56 +0200, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote: On 22/07/2012 16:01, Wojciech Puchar wrote: 'dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1M' works under Cygwin - or you can just write a load of zeros to \\.\PhysicalDrive0 . who prevents you to bood live CD or pendrive with FreeBSD (or openbsd,netbsd,linux,solaris,whatever usable)? Nobody - I didn't say users couldn't boot from a FreeBSD/etc live CD, but zeroing the disk in Cygwin is an alternative. Microsoft's format.exe can zero a volume, at least in the newer (2008) versions: /p:passes : Zeros every sector on the volume for the number of passes specified. http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc730730(v=ws.10) -- If at first you don't succeed... ...so much for skydiving. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On 22/07/2012 17:14, Polytropon wrote: Furthermore, in your example using Cygnwin's dd _on_ the disk Cygnwin is currently running from, and the Windows it runs on too, doesn't seem like a very good idea. I assume it will result in a bluescreen soon and a _partially_ erased disk. Sorry, I forgot the say that in this example Windows is booted from \\.\PhysicalDrive1 :) -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl Sun Jul 22 10:03:46 2012 Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 17:01:59 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl To: Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk cc: Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? 'dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1M' works under Cygwin - or you can just write a load of zeros to \\.\PhysicalDrive0 . who prevents you to bood live CD or pendrive with FreeBSD (or openbsd,netbsd,linux,solaris,whatever usable)? Merely the real-world FACT that *most* Windows users don't _have_ any such media, _or_ know anthing about how to use it, *if* they had it. griin ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From: Polytropon free...@edvax.de Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 18:14:02 +0200 Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? By the way, I remember I had a DD.EXE program on my old DOS system. I'm not sure if such a tool could operate on devices (instead of filesystem-based representations as drive letters), but it actually _was_ a DOS-based copy convert utility for the PC. :-) MSDOS/PCDOS had -no- O/S functions to directly access actual disk devices. The ONLY fuctionality provided to the user, by the O/S was filesystem based access. To get 'raw' device access, one had to bypass the O/S entirely, and use direct BIOS calls (INT 13h). And, _if_ you went the INT 13H route, you had to include your own custom code in your app for MS 'partition' handling, and possible multiple logical drives inside a single 'extended partition'. There was a fairly widely available INT 13H program called 'rawrite that would copy a file (inside the filesystem on a letter-named drive) to a raw disk device. Commonly used for making bootable UNIXesque floppies under DOS/Windows, from an 'image' file. There was a companion 'rawread', that was much less widely distributed -- few people needed to make a complete disk image file of a physical drive (or logical 'drive letter') under windows. Rawread/rawwrite would work for 'cloning' a *SMALL* physical drive, but *ONLY* if the 'bad sectors' were in the same place(s). They _weren't_ smart enough to write the data intended for what turned out to be a 'bad sector' on the target drive to somewhere else, and update the FAT accordingly. They only worked on small drives because they only spoke 'CHS' sector addressing, not LBA. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Sun Jul 22 07:22:29 2012 Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 14:19:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl To: Thomas Mueller muelle...@insightbb.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? Let us securely erase your personal files and pictures for only $49.99. and securely copy everything interesting before. That's truly funny. Someone DO CARE about his/her data being deleted, and... lets someone else in random shop to do this. And exactly what alternatives _do_ you see for someone who DOES NOT HAVE THE SKILLS, TOOLS, OR RESOURCES, to 'do it themselves'? That's a serious question, not an attack. If someone wants it done, but doesn't have the knowledge/tools/etc. to do it themselves, it appears to me that they have precisely two realistic alternatives: 1) Trust somebody to do it, and do it right, or 2) simpl DON'T do it. Putting together what is required to do it yourself _is_ out of the question for _most_ Windows users. They don't know _what_ they need to know/learn/have to do the task. Heck they don't know how to find out *what* they need to find out, to learn what is needed to do the task. Yes, in theory, they _could_ learn everything they need to know to do it themselves, but the list of things that a 'know nothing' Windows user has to dig out, understand, and _use_, is incredibly long and daunting. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Sun Jul 22 09:19:24 2012 Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 15:16:01 +0100 From: Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk To: Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? On 22/07/2012 11:38, Robert Bonomi wrote: Needless to say, that approach doesn't work under Windows. grin 'dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1M' works under Cygwin - or you can just write a load of zeros to \\.\PhysicalDrive0 . I've never seen a Windows installation that _came_with_ cgwin, or an 'average' Windows user that was capable of (a) findingit, (b) comprehending -what- it was, (c) downloading it, (d) installing it, or (e) figuring out how to -use- it.. Aside from those 'minor' difficulties, it's a viable solution. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Sun Jul 22 13:15:00 2012 Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:12:42 +0100 From: Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk To: Polytropon free...@edvax.de Cc: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? On 22/07/2012 17:14, Polytropon wrote: Furthermore, in your example using Cygnwin's dd _on_ the disk Cygnwin is currently running from, and the Windows it runs on too, doesn't seem like a very good idea. I assume it will result in a bluescreen soon and a _partially_ erased disk. Sorry, I forgot the say that in this example Windows is booted from \\.\PhysicalDrive1 :) Which assumes you _have_ \\.\PhysicalDrive1, and have a bootable O/S on it, *and* know how to make the machine boot from the 'other disk' *AND* know the 'magic incantation' to invoke the executable to erase the disk in -that- environmnt. Care to guess what percentnage of Windows users fits that criteria? I'm petty sure, albeit without any 'ahrd facts', that it starts with a decimal point, and several zeroes.wry grin ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From: Michael Ross g...@ross.cx Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 19:06:04 +0200 On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 17:08:56 +0200, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote: Microsoft's format.exe can zero a volume, at least in the newer (2008) versions: /p:passes : Zeros every sector on the volume for the number of passes specified. Early versions of format (until the addition of the '/Q' switch) always over- wrote the entire disk. this was how it found the initial 'bad sectors' to be so marked in the FAT. As disk capacities increased, the bad block check took increasingly longer amounts of time. Hence, along with bad-block handling (mapping and substitution) moving into the drive electronics, the introduction of the '/Q' option -- whereby format just overwrote the fat and root diretory, putting all the data blocks on the free list. I haven't had occasion to dissect a copy of format in years, I don't know if it still defaults to one write attemptto every sector on the disk. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 16:01:41 -0500 (CDT) Robert Bonomi articulated: I haven't had occasion to dissect a copy of format in years, I don't know if it still defaults to one write attemptto every sector on the disk. I read on the MS TechNet several years ago that it attempted three writes per sector. That info may be out of date with the never versions of the format program however. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
system. I'm not sure if such a tool could operate on devices (instead of filesystem-based representations as drive letters), but it actually _was_ a DOS-based copy convert utility for the PC. :-) MSDOS/PCDOS had -no- O/S functions to directly access actual disk devices. The ONLY fuctionality provided to the user, by the O/S can we finally stop this off topic thread? it was about fsck on FAT32 filesystem UNDER FREEBSD (because it is in freebsd-questions). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 23:01:41 +0200, Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com wrote: I haven't had occasion to dissect a copy of format in years, I don't know if it still defaults to one write attemptto every sector on the disk. By default in Windows Vista, the format command writes zeros to the whole disk when a full format is performed. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/941961/en-us With the addition of the passes-switch, this seems to imply one write attempt per sector, but I didn't find any explicit statement to that accord. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 15:31:51 -0500 (CDT) Robert Bonomi articulated: Yes, in theory, they _could_ learn everything they need to know to do it themselves, but the list of things that a 'know nothing' Windows user has to dig out, understand, and _use_, is incredibly long and daunting. I know plenty of dumber than dirt *.nix users too. Stupidity is not limited to race, color, sex or operating system. Actually, they are smart enough to get themselves an OS that actually works with virtually all modern hardware and without having to spend countless [hours | days | weeks] attempting to getting such hardware up and running before eventually giving up in some cases. You might have heard about N protocol wireless devices that until fairly recently FreeBSD didn't even know existed. Even now the support is limited; however, that is another story. In any case, that is not the subject of this this reply. I have found HDDerase.exe http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/SecureErase.shtml to be a useful and in the most important criteria to the FOSS crowd, free. Seriously though, isn't it about time to close this thread? -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com wrote: MSDOS/PCDOS had -no- O/S functions to directly access actual disk devices. The ONLY fuctionality provided to the user, by the O/S was filesystem based access. To get 'raw' device access, one had to bypass the O/S entirely, and use direct BIOS calls (INT 13h). FALSE TO FACT. MSDOS/PCDOS had no _documented_ functions to directly access the disks, bypassing the file system, but the functions _did_ exist. The debugger's read sector and write sector commands used them, and I suspect chkdsk, scandisk, and format probably also used them although I never had occasion to verify one way or the other. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From per...@pluto.rain.com Sun Jul 22 22:15:48 2012 Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 03:10:40 -0700 From: per...@pluto.rain.com To: bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com wrote: MSDOS/PCDOS had -no- O/S functions to directly access actual disk devices. The ONLY fuctionality provided to the user, by the O/S was filesystem based access. To get 'raw' device access, one had to bypass the O/S entirely, and use direct BIOS calls (INT 13h). FALSE TO FACT. MSDOS/PCDOS had no _documented_ functions to directly access the disks, bypassing the file system, but the functions _did_ exist. I'm sure you can provide the DOS 'function number' for those calls, and cites to published data confirming. The debugger's read sector and write sector commands used them, and I suspect chkdsk, scandisk, and format probably also used them although I never had occasion to verify one way or the other. My experince in porting MSDOS 3.1 to a non pc-clone architecture was that fdisk, format, chkdsk, debug, and sys all invoked INT 13H directly. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Thu Jul 19 03:21:28 2012 Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:18:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl To: Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? entitled to have opinions, *BUT* the Gospel According to Wojciech is -not- 'the answer' for everybody, in every situation. *IF* you ever learn that, Seems like you have 45 years of experience in words. nothing more. It seems like all you know how to do is engage in ignorant, uninformed, personal attacks/insults. Not that it matters, but -- in addition to having had a news story I wrote published on the front page of the N.Y. Times (midwest edition) -- I've: a) Designed and implemented trans-national, trans-atlantic corporate data network for the trading arm of a major Japanese bank. b) implemented array of pointer to function in FORTRAN 77 applications. c) Written date parsing routines, originally in FORTRAN 66, that would recognize virtually -any- 'rational' date expression -- including the likes of this 23rd day of June in the Year of Our Lord 2012. had a switch for 'prefering' European-syle (DD MM YY) or American-style (MM DD YY) dates when ambiguous. User-manual for the free-form command parser merely specified a 'date' was required at a particular point, would frequently generate user inquires 'what date _format_ is required?' Answer: Use what you prefer, it will probably make sense out of it d) Written the _first_ commodity-options 'theoretical value' calculation routine that was fast enough to be used in 'real time' in determining 'fair value' for exchange-traded commodity options. When the source data may change in a fractiono of a second, Doing 'Cox-Ross-Rubenstein' math *before* the underling data changes -- invalidating the calculation- in-progress -- is challenging. Doing it for the -entire- market, which requires sub-millisecond timing, is far more than just 'challenging'. e) Written the worlds fastest project scheduling software (merely 4000 times faster than IBM's offering at the time). After I demoed the software for over a dozen senior IBM construction executives, they contracted with the firm I worked for, for project scheuling services for -all- their major physicaal plant construction projects. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers also bought a copy. f) Wrote the _first_ PC-based software for 'off-line' creation of control-files for a high-end video-tape editing suite. File format _entirely_ undocumented, required 'reverse-engineering' of everthing. g) Designed and implemented a complete _real-time_ market price data distribution system (everything from the incoming feed processing to the subroutinies that the 'user applications' used) for a major Government Securities brokerage. Stand-alone code on dedicated processors for each incoming feed, feeding a back-end server, with multiplexing daemons on each workstation, to support multiple simultaneous applications. Commplete with application-level transparency for the crash/auto-restart of any system-level component, and auto release of resources previousl allocated to now-zombie clients. Everthing _guaranteed_, by architecture design to be non-blocking, _impossible_ for one client app to adversely affect quote delivery to other apps, even on the same machine. h) Designed and built a complete 'subscription publiication' accounting system -- complete 'subscriber management'. billing, payment, earned- income handling, -and- 'fulfillment' processing. i) Written 'hyupervisor' (for lack of a better term) code for a mini- computer system, to automate a management task on that machine that the _manufacturer_ of the hardare and O/S said could _not_ be automated. Aggression is normal today from such people, that have good position in some companies and fear anyone could read any other than established opinions. That is an amazingly accurate description of _YOU_, Wociech -- You might consider why you feel it necessary to _personally_attack_ anyone and everyone who has the nerve to disagree with your _opinions_. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 20:18:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? Indeed. But getting GELI certified and approved by the relevant institutions and agencies isn't that easy either. Yet without no idea what are you talking about. Then you would be well advised to keep pie-hole shut. Doing otherwise, as Lincoln put it, removes all doubt. As for any government agencies and corporations why you care about their problems? Does it even *occur* to you that some people use FreeBSD in _business_ operations? Business (or even government) operations which just might have to comply with _laws_ that limit them to using resources that have been certified as doing what the law requires such tools do? C.P. has made it clear that she _is_ in am environment where compliance with government edicts on the subject of security _is_ an operational requirement. Including the mandatory use of 'certified' solutions for particcular issues. In her environment, geli could be used 'in addition to' a mandatory, certified solution, but *NOT* 'by itself' as a means of dealing with that mandatory requirement -- because it is *not* and approved and 'certified' means of satisfying that requirement. Whether or not you agree with, or even _understand_, the nature of the requirement is immaterial, and irrelevant to C.P.'s situation. She _does_ have to deal with those requirements, which you do not -- your lack of comprension of that =fact= not withstaning. --q6LBAU6u007680.1342869030/mail.r-bonomi.com-- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 05:12:14 -0500 (CDT) Robert Bonomi articulated: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl entitled to have opinions, *BUT* the Gospel According to Wojciech is -not- 'the answer' for everybody, in every situation. *IF* you ever learn that, Seems like you have 45 years of experience in words. nothing more. It seems like all you know how to do is engage in ignorant, uninformed, personal attacks/insults. Not that it matters, but -- in addition to having had a news story I wrote published on the front page of the N.Y. Times (midwest edition) -- I've: a) Designed and implemented trans-national, trans-atlantic corporate data network for the trading arm of a major Japanese bank. b) implemented array of pointer to function in FORTRAN 77 applications. c) Written date parsing routines, originally in FORTRAN 66, that would recognize virtually -any- 'rational' date expression -- including the likes of this 23rd day of June in the Year of Our Lord 2012. had a switch for 'prefering' European-syle (DD MM YY) or American-style (MM DD YY) dates when ambiguous. User-manual for the free-form command parser merely specified a 'date' was required at a particular point, would frequently generate user inquires 'what date _format_ is required?' Answer: Use what you prefer, it will probably make sense out of it d) Written the _first_ commodity-options 'theoretical value' calculation routine that was fast enough to be used in 'real time' in determining 'fair value' for exchange-traded commodity options. When the source data may change in a fractiono of a second, Doing 'Cox-Ross-Rubenstein' math *before* the underling data changes -- invalidating the calculation- in-progress -- is challenging. Doing it for the -entire- market, which requires sub-millisecond timing, is far more than just 'challenging'. e) Written the worlds fastest project scheduling software (merely 4000 times faster than IBM's offering at the time). After I demoed the software for over a dozen senior IBM construction executives, they contracted with the firm I worked for, for project scheuling services for -all- their major physicaal plant construction projects. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers also bought a copy. f) Wrote the _first_ PC-based software for 'off-line' creation of control-files for a high-end video-tape editing suite. File format _entirely_ undocumented, required 'reverse-engineering' of everthing. g) Designed and implemented a complete _real-time_ market price data distribution system (everything from the incoming feed processing to the subroutinies that the 'user applications' used) for a major Government Securities brokerage. Stand-alone code on dedicated processors for each incoming feed, feeding a back-end server, with multiplexing daemons on each workstation, to support multiple simultaneous applications. Commplete with application-level transparency for the crash/auto-restart of any system-level component, and auto release of resources previousl allocated to now-zombie clients. Everthing _guaranteed_, by architecture design to be non-blocking, _impossible_ for one client app to adversely affect quote delivery to other apps, even on the same machine. h) Designed and built a complete 'subscription publiication' accounting system -- complete 'subscriber management'. billing, payment, earned- income handling, -and- 'fulfillment' processing. i) Written 'hyupervisor' (for lack of a better term) code for a mini- computer system, to automate a management task on that machine that the _manufacturer_ of the hardare and O/S said could _not_ be automated. Big deal; so what have you done lately. :-) Seriously though, I wish people would stop feeding this TROLL. There is absolutely no upside to it. As has been stated so eloquently many times before, Never argue with a fool - they will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. Aggression is normal today from such people, that have good position in some companies and fear anyone could read any other than established opinions. That is an amazingly accurate description of _YOU_, Wociech -- You might consider why you feel it necessary to _personally_attack_ anyone and everyone who has the nerve to disagree with your _opinions_. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ Numeric stability is probably not all that important when you're guessing. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
It seems like all you know how to do is engage in ignorant, uninformed, personal attacks/insults. if you would read more carefully then you will see clearly that i am personally attacked most often. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Seriously though, I wish people would stop feeding this TROLL. There is absolutely no upside to it. As has been stated so eloquently many times before, Never argue with a fool - they will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. so why you are continuing that thread? People like you tend to classify others as a troll because you just don't agree. sad. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 4:53 AM, Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com wrote: All I'm going to say is: 1) There's a _reason_ the gov't requires hard drives with anthing higher than 'somewhat' classified data on them to be =physically= destroyed before leving the secure area. Speaking from experience, I confirm that it's true. However, regulations have been tightened further recently as to mandate sector-level encryption of the hard disks as well, just to be on the sure(rer) side. At least in certain particularly sensitive areas. 2) As of 2007, 'over-writing' data (regardless of how many times) is *not* sufficient, any more, for _any_ military purposes. Yes. With enough resources, it is possible to read lower magnetic layers of HDDs, at least partially. And with SDDs, it's trivial to locate the old sectors, because their firmware doesn't overwrite the same physical spots for obvious reasons. That's why sector-level disk encryption is paramount nowadays. And that opens a whole new Pandora's box of key management issues and vulnerabilities. ;-) -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
regulations have been tightened further recently as to mandate sector-level encryption of the hard disks as well, just to be on the sure(rer) side. At least in certain particularly sensitive areas. which may be a proof that governments know backdoors alloving recovery from encrypted drives using builtin hardware encryption (FDE). Not that easy with geli ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 6:07 PM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: regulations have been tightened further recently as to mandate sector-level encryption of the hard disks as well, just to be on the sure(rer) side. At least in certain particularly sensitive areas. which may be a proof that governments know backdoors alloving recovery from encrypted drives using builtin hardware encryption (FDE). Not that easy with geli ;) Indeed. But getting GELI certified and approved by the relevant institutions and agencies isn't that easy either. Yet without getting both, we aren't allowed to rely on GELI as the sole encryption-provider. As an add-on on top of a certified solution, GELI wouldn't hurt though: it's a decent piece of code. -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Indeed. But getting GELI certified and approved by the relevant institutions and agencies isn't that easy either. Yet without no idea what are you talking about. For your own use you don't need anyones certification. You need safe solution. geli just do this. As for any government agencies and corporations why you care about their problems? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
developed countries. Not really sure what you wanted to imply, as SMB looks like americanism to me. as well as SOHO. As not the first time, some people here when lacking arguments say i work for larger company. We have more servers in one place. Esp. second is nopt something to be proud about. more and more such people, and complete newbies or IT specialists dominate this forum. sad. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
1) There's a _reason_ the gov't requires hard drives with anthing higher than 'somewhat' classified data on them to be =physically= destroyed before leving the secure area. no. for modern hard drives it was already proved that dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/disk bs=1m is enough to make data unreadable. for very old drives it may not ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
entitled to have opinions, *BUT* the Gospel According to Wojciech is -not- 'the answer' for everybody, in every situation. *IF* you ever learn that, Seems like you have 45 years of experience in words. nothing more. Aggression is normal today from such people, that have good position in some companies and fear anyone could read any other than established opinions. That's all. Still I already see FreeBSD future is to get fd up completely, as such people tend to dominate such a forum. The question is how long. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Jerry jerry at seibercom.net writes: ... I couldn't have said it better myself. Wojciech lives in his own little world, which is fine as long as he doesn't try to visit mine. He sounds like he works at a small Polish SMB, more commonly referred to as a SOHO in more developed countries. I have just blocked him so I don't have to read his TROLLish bullshit. Hi Jerry, while I respect your personal decision to /dev/null Wojciech, it seems to me that you are firing with a big gun and actually hurting yourself. If you join a public list you must be prepared to hear opinions that are different from yours, controversial, fill it in. These opinions, valid or not, give you an understanding of what is going on in the field of interest. Otherwise, you may run the danger of building a wall around yourself. While it is not a case here, I have seen few people on other lists to do the same just because they were not able to comprehend a topic discussed, and in frustration they killfiled the person involved. Similarly, all cry babies who for the same reasons want to ban/moderate out/ whatever people from a list irritate me as well. There is an old saying that 'you should not enter the kitchen if you can not stand the heat. So, if you can not change it, relax and enjoy it :-) jb ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Otherwise, you may run the danger of building a wall around yourself. everyone should judge by his/her own brain which opinions are right. Actually in every moment i try to encourage EVERYONE to turn on his/her brain that we all have but rarely use. To be ever able to use ones brain properly all widely known truth, standard practices etc.. should be forgotten at least for a moment. Mantras are always against clear thinking and understanding. The most important repeated mantra i am righting is that FreeBSD (or any Free unix) should be easier to newbies. This already killed linux long time ago, NetBSD too, and going to kill FreeBSD. Most of newbies are not the ones that are likely to learn anything. They want click-click interface to install and run something so they can add FreeBSD knowledge to their CV. They can do ONLY harm to FreeBSD. Some get hired and results in problems described in thread Help solving the sysadm's nightmare for the man hired after them.. While it is not a case here, I have seen few people on other lists to do the same just because they were not able to comprehend a topic discussed, and in frustration they killfiled the person involved. it's still nothing wrong to add a rule to redirect someones (mine) mail to /dev/null, but the way they do this: - showing whole world they do this - showing whole world their .procmailrc (so happy they finally learnt procmail?) - performing personal attacks every time they disagree. Doesn't look like serious people's behavior. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:15:17 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar articulated: 1) There's a _reason_ the gov't requires hard drives with anthing higher than 'somewhat' classified data on them to be =physically= destroyed before leving the secure area. no. for modern hard drives it was already proved that dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/disk bs=1m is enough to make data unreadable. for very old drives it may not Would you be so kind as to point out the proof of that statement? Please provide an address or location where the documentation supporting that statement can be found. By the way, NOT READABLE is not equal to UNRECOVERABLE. -- Carmel ✌ carmel...@hotmail.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
for very old drives it may not Would you be so kind as to point out the proof of that statement? sorry but i didn't save that article on hard drive. So no proof if you don't believe me i've actually read it. The main point is that you have - track - intra-track gap - finite precision of writing head positioning. When you write on track second time, head isn't positioned exactly as before so very thin stripe of previous recording remain. With sophisticated enough tools you may recover it, requiring like 10 times smaller head than normal. With modern drives size of magnetic domains are larger than this imperfection. If drive record properly this stripes of leftover recording are just too small to be stable. Even if it would, no hardware exist to do this, except maybe scanning electron microscope which would take years to scan whole surface of disk IMHO. Not sure if it can see surface magnetization as i don't precisely know how such microscope works. But i know it needs some time to scan even tiny thing. Please provide an address or location where the documentation supporting that statement can be found. By the way, NOT READABLE is not equal to UNRECOVERABLE. yes i know the difference. Finally i am not sure if bulk erases can actually erase drives, for sure they can destroy disk electronics so disk appears cleared. The field needed to clear modern magnetic media are just enormous. They are enormous under normal operation of disk, but power is small as track width is defined in nanometers. If it would be my data to be erased i would just do dd if=/dev/zero of=disk bs=.. or if really paranoid then after this dd if=/dev/urandom of=disk bs=.. or if very paranoid then will just put that drives into fireplace, which would heat them over curie point which would definitely demagnetize whole media. more sure than bulk eraser, and definitely secure, for free. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
This topic went totally off, but anyway there are interesting bits, do you say that e.g. Gutmann method is totally unneeded? -- View this message in context: http://freebsd.1045724.n5.nabble.com/fsck-on-FAT32-filesystem-tp5727015p5728126.html Sent from the freebsd-questions mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 12:49:50 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar articulated: Otherwise, you may run the danger of building a wall around yourself. everyone should judge by his/her own brain which opinions are right. Actually in every moment i try to encourage EVERYONE to turn on his/her brain that we all have but rarely use. To be ever able to use ones brain properly all widely known truth, standard practices etc.. should be forgotten at least for a moment. Citation needed examples please. Mantras are always against clear thinking and understanding. I don't think you understand the meaning of the word mantras. The most important repeated mantra i am righting is that FreeBSD (or any Free unix) should be easier to newbies. Citation needed. This already killed linux long time ago, NetBSD too, and going to kill FreeBSD. Really, I must have missed the funeral. Most of newbies are not the ones that are likely to learn anything. They want click-click interface to install and run something so they can add FreeBSD knowledge to their CV. That statement goes beyond stupid. At some point, everyone is a newbie. If your statement is to be taken at face value, then the majority of new users would, according to you, never bother to learn anything. You might want to try and back that up with some verifiable facts. Furthermore, in regards to your click-click interface statement, the Ubuntu operating system is gaining traction everyday. Everyone is not locked into the c.1990's. They can do ONLY harm to FreeBSD. Citation needed. Some get hired and results in problems described in thread Help solving the sysadm's nightmare for the man hired after them.. While it is not a case here, I have seen few people on other lists to do the same just because they were not able to comprehend a topic discussed, and in frustration they killfiled the person involved. I have witnessed your posts on Dovecot being ridiculed as nothing more than TROLLing. it's still nothing wrong to add a rule to redirect someones (mine) mail to /dev/null, but the way they do this: - showing whole world they do this - showing whole world their .procmailrc (so happy they finally learnt procmail?) - performing personal attacks every time they disagree. procmail -- really? While everyone is free to use what ever solution they find advantageous, I would certainly not recommend procmail. Procmail is widely used on Unix-based systems and stable, but no longer maintained. Many users have switched to maildrop. Personally, I prefer sieve with Dovecot. Just a personal preference and yet far more robust. Doesn't look like serious people's behavior. Your actions mimic that of a TROLL. You make blanket statements sans any verifiable proof or documentation; i.e. dd being the ultimate disk recovery utility or its ability to absolutely, positively erase any HD without any possibility of it being recovered. I can understand why informed users might block you. I think I will be following their lead. It seems that you have managed to annoy, infuriate and offend users on at least two lists, this one and Dovecot, and I am sure several others as well. At least you have a perfect batting average. -- Carmel ✌ carmel...@hotmail.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Am 19.07.2012, 13:27 Uhr, schrieb Jakub Lach jakub_l...@mailplus.pl: This topic went totally off, but anyway there are interesting bits, do you say that e.g. Gutmann method is totally unneeded? You may be interested in the epilogue to Gutmann's paper: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html#Epilogue Quote: For any modern PRML/EPRML drive, a few passes of random scrubbing is the best you can do. As the paper says, A good scrubbing with random data will do about as well as can be expected. This was true in 1996, and is still true now. Nice picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MFM_AFM_JANUSZ_REBIS_INFOCENTRE_PL_HDD_MAGNETIC_MEMORY_EVOLUTION.png -- View this message in context: http://freebsd.1045724.n5.nabble.com/fsck-on-FAT32-filesystem-tp5727015p5728126.html Sent from the freebsd-questions mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
can add FreeBSD knowledge to their CV. That statement goes beyond stupid. At some point, everyone is a You proved well enough about what stupid means. esp your mail carmel...@hotmail.com that's truly a mail address that System Admin should be proud of ;) At least you don't worry about backups. Hotmail (or gmail or else) do archive everything you ever sent or received so you don't fear data loss. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Wojciech Puchar wojtek at wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl writes: ... This should clear up some confusion. Will it ? Disk Wiping One Pass Is Enough http://www.anti-forensics.com/disk-wiping-one-pass-is-enough ... --- http://www.anti-forensics.com/disk-wiping-one-pass-is-enough-part-2-this-time-wi th-screenshots ... What about magnetic force microscopy? ... Sans Computer Forensics on Magnetic Force Microscopy ... Secure Deletion of Data from Magnetic and Solid-State Memory by Peter Gutmann (35 pass wipe originated from Mr. Gutmann) ... --- ... So why are there so many recommendations for multiple passes during disk wiping? ... Another method I use quite a bit is to just hook a drive up to a Linux system or pop a bootable Live CD in the machine and boot into a Linux environment to use the DD command. It can be as simple as this: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/[DISK HERE] Enjoy it ! jb ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Follow up is even more interesting than epilogue, especially: Another problem with the article is the fact that a magnetic force microscope, which is a scanning probe microscope, is nothing like an electron microscope, and yet the article repeatedly refers to using an electron microscope to try and recover data (the same mistake has also been pointed out by others). So saying the chances of recovery of any amount of data from a drive using an electron microscope are negligible is quite true, in the same way that saying the chances of recovery of any amount of data from a drive using an optical microscope are negligible is true And DiskStroyer kit made me chuckle. If I comprehend it correctly, that doesn't make Gutmann method obsolete in principle, it only means that those passes were tailored at (various) old technology, and on modern drives could be bit overkill and just as good as random scrubs. That's still makes a robust procedure, even If overkill and dated (which isn't exactly bad thing). Thanks for replies. -- View this message in context: http://freebsd.1045724.n5.nabble.com/fsck-on-FAT32-filesystem-tp5727015p5728161.html Sent from the freebsd-questions mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On 19/07/2012 09:15, Wojciech Puchar wrote: no. for modern hard drives it was already proved that dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/disk bs=1m is enough to make data unreadable. for very old drives it may not How about data stored in remapped sectors, or any flash cache? The Secure Erase command (https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/ATA_Secure_Erase) may clear all that data too, but without any guarantees it's better to destroy the disk than risk leaving classified data on it. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, Carmel wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:15:17 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar articulated: 1) There's a _reason_ the gov't requires hard drives with anthing higher than 'somewhat' classified data on them to be =physically= destroyed before leving the secure area. no. for modern hard drives it was already proved that dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/disk bs=1m is enough to make data unreadable. for very old drives it may not Would you be so kind as to point out the proof of that statement? Please provide an address or location where the documentation supporting that statement can be found. By the way, NOT READABLE is not equal to UNRECOVERABLE. I hesitate to intervene in this dispute, but my posting Can intelligence agencies recover overwritten data? at http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-gutmann.html will iluminate this discussion. dan feenberg -- Carmel ? carmel...@hotmail.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
How about data stored in remapped sectors, or any flash cache? how about being able to restore random 0.1% of former user data. Not really useful. Flash cache is quite recent idea, nobody serious would like to scrap such a drive instead of reuse. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
agencies recover overwritten data? at http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-gutmann.html at first - it should be asked can agencies recover your data without being overwritten first. just use geli(8) then second problem is even less problem. Finally use geli (or similar method) ALWAYS, no matter if you have highly important data, naked girls photos or just games. Just to say NO to any government agencies that terrorize you using your own money. At least in Poland you are not required by law to provide any passwords. Encryption is legal. At second - the basic claim that overwriting 1 with 1 differs from overwriting 0 with 1 at magnetization level is quite a proof of lack of understanding physics. Hint: magnetic hysteresis. What hard drive manufacturers want is to use magnetic material with largest hysteresis so difference between one and zero is highest. Can all paranoid here finally put their hard drives to fire so they will heat over curie point, and then - end that offtopic? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 16:26:57 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar wrote: agencies recover overwritten data? at http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-gutmann.html at first - it should be asked can agencies recover your data without being overwritten first. Sure, because it's stored on Facebook in the Cloud. :-) Finally use geli (or similar method) ALWAYS, no matter if you have highly important data, naked girls photos or just games. Just to say NO to any government agencies that terrorize you using your own money. At least in Poland you are not required by law to provide any passwords. Encryption is legal. That depends on local legislation. As you said, it's legal in Poland, but it's not in the UK anymore, if I understood it correctly. Related article, I thought I'd share it with the list: http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/12/in-the-uk-you-will-go-to-jail-not-just-for-encryption-but-for-astronomical-noise-too/ It also contains a link to the actual law. Can all paranoid here finally put their hard drives to fire so they will heat over curie point, and then - end that offtopic? Why pollute the environment with fire? What's wrong with a good old-fashioned hammer session, executed on the disk platters? :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Tue Jul 17 12:06:29 2012 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:02:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl To: Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? Surely SpinRite is more clever than that, i would bet otherwise. simple tools and free tools are always better You continue to demonstrate that you don't know what you don't know. are you another sponsored by some recovery tool commercial producer? What I am is an information systems professional with 45 years experience. including 30 years with Unix, who does not suffer ignorant, ill-informed, and arrogant, fools gladly. You make pronouncements of your *opinions* as though they are God-given fact -- even on things which you _don't_ have actual knowledge. You're entitled to have opinions, *BUT* the Gospel According to Wojciech is -not- 'the answer' for everybody, in every situation. *IF* you ever learn that, realize that there _are_ other =legitimate= viewpoints on matters, and qualify your statements with things like 'in my opinion', 'this might help', 'have you considered trying' -- as opposed to dictating what the reader must do, *especially* when you have missed critical facts in the question you are responding to -- Then, and *ONLY*THEN*, are people likely to give your opinions about how to do things any serious consideration. Case in point, your I would bet otherwise -- an implicit admission you *don't* know how SpinRite actually works. How much hard cash, US dollars, do you have to 'put your money where your mouth is? Alternatively, you can admit you were blowing bullshit -- that your words were merely uninformed speculation, with no actual basis in fact. As for my subject-expertise -- I have, personally, _written_ stand-alone code that directly interfaces with hard-controller disk chips -- for purposes of evaluating the condition of damaged hard-disks. I've had clients come to me for advice on data-recovery, having suffered catastrophic damage to their only copy of what was truly 'mission critical' data. (No, they weren't existing clients -- if they had been, proper back-up procedures would have been in place, and the disk crash would have been a 'non-event'.) I have successfully recovered _every_byte_ of data from a damaged State of The Art Compression compressed disk volume, using custom device-driver code that I wrote. I've had clients that decided it WAS 'worth it' to pay one of the 'kilobuck per megabyte of recovered data' (actual price) Class 25 clean room recovery services -- where the damage to the drive was such that *ANY* attempt to access anything on the drive would cause more damage. Using 'simple, free tools, like your 'dd' recommendation, would (a) not have been successful, and (b) *greatly* reduced what would be recoverable by the clean-room facility. Your assertation that free tools are always better is pure, unadulterated bullshit. For 'simple' situations, they _may_ be adequate, or may not. When there are various kinds of _serious_ problems, even -attempting- to use tools like 'dd' (or SpinRite, for that matter) can/will make things FAR worse. Drive disassembly and platter cleaning _must_ be the first t hing done in such situations. _For_the_price_, SpinRite provides an amazing level of functionality. circa 85-90% of what high-end professional tools costing 100x more can do. It's not a FUS, but it is incredible 'bang for the buck', and does things that *NO* Unix 'userland' application can do in reconstructing damaged data. SpinRite _will_ recover data in a lot of situations where the 'dd' approach is less than effective. Situations where SpinRite is ineffective, _and_ the clean room approach is _not_ required, are rare. It's not perfect, it won't fix everything, but it is an incredibly inexpensive step up (and a *LARGE* step up) from the 'dd' approach. If the 'dd' type approach you you recover 'what you need' that's great. If _not_, SpinRite should probably be the 'next step'. If it _doesn't_ work, the cost/time for trying it is 'inconsequential petty cash', elative to the cost of the _next_ approach. And, if it -does- work, it paid for itself, a hundred times over, by saving the cost of the really expensive approach. Cheap insurance' even at several times the retail price. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:47:02 -0500 (CDT) Robert Bonomi articulated: From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl Surely SpinRite is more clever than that, i would bet otherwise. simple tools and free tools are always better You continue to demonstrate that you don't know what you don't know. are you another sponsored by some recovery tool commercial producer? What I am is an information systems professional with 45 years experience. including 30 years with Unix, who does not suffer ignorant, ill-informed, and arrogant, fools gladly. You make pronouncements of your *opinions* as though they are God-given fact -- even on things which you _don't_ have actual knowledge. You're entitled to have opinions, *BUT* the Gospel According to Wojciech is -not- 'the answer' for everybody, in every situation. *IF* you ever learn that, realize that there _are_ other =legitimate= viewpoints on matters, and qualify your statements with things like 'in my opinion', 'this might help', 'have you considered trying' -- as opposed to dictating what the reader must do, *especially* when you have missed critical facts in the question you are responding to -- Then, and *ONLY*THEN*, are people likely to give your opinions about how to do things any serious consideration. Case in point, your I would bet otherwise -- an implicit admission you *don't* know how SpinRite actually works. How much hard cash, US dollars, do you have to 'put your money where your mouth is? Alternatively, you can admit you were blowing bullshit -- that your words were merely uninformed speculation, with no actual basis in fact. As for my subject-expertise -- I have, personally, _written_ stand-alone code that directly interfaces with hard-controller disk chips -- for purposes of evaluating the condition of damaged hard-disks. I've had clients come to me for advice on data-recovery, having suffered catastrophic damage to their only copy of what was truly 'mission critical' data. (No, they weren't existing clients -- if they had been, proper back-up procedures would have been in place, and the disk crash would have been a 'non-event'.) I have successfully recovered _every_byte_ of data from a damaged State of The Art Compression compressed disk volume, using custom device-driver code that I wrote. I've had clients that decided it WAS 'worth it' to pay one of the 'kilobuck per megabyte of recovered data' (actual price) Class 25 clean room recovery services -- where the damage to the drive was such that *ANY* attempt to access anything on the drive would cause more damage. Using 'simple, free tools, like your 'dd' recommendation, would (a) not have been successful, and (b) *greatly* reduced what would be recoverable by the clean-room facility. Your assertation that free tools are always better is pure, unadulterated bullshit. For 'simple' situations, they _may_ be adequate, or may not. When there are various kinds of _serious_ problems, even -attempting- to use tools like 'dd' (or SpinRite, for that matter) can/will make things FAR worse. Drive disassembly and platter cleaning _must_ be the first t hing done in such situations. _For_the_price_, SpinRite provides an amazing level of functionality. circa 85-90% of what high-end professional tools costing 100x more can do. It's not a FUS, but it is incredible 'bang for the buck', and does things that *NO* Unix 'userland' application can do in reconstructing damaged data. SpinRite _will_ recover data in a lot of situations where the 'dd' approach is less than effective. Situations where SpinRite is ineffective, _and_ the clean room approach is _not_ required, are rare. It's not perfect, it won't fix everything, but it is an incredibly inexpensive step up (and a *LARGE* step up) from the 'dd' approach. If the 'dd' type approach you you recover 'what you need' that's great. If _not_, SpinRite should probably be the 'next step'. If it _doesn't_ work, the cost/time for trying it is 'inconsequential petty cash', elative to the cost of the _next_ approach. And, if it -does- work, it paid for itself, a hundred times over, by saving the cost of the really expensive approach. Cheap insurance' even at several times the retail price. I couldn't have said it better myself. Wojciech lives in his own little world, which is fine as long as he doesn't try to visit mine. He sounds like he works at a small Polish SMB, more commonly referred to as a SOHO in more developed countries. I have just blocked him so I don't have to read his TROLLish bullshit. The fact that he mentioned scandisk which Microsoft only released in Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition, Microsoft Windows 98 Standard Edition and Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition makes one wonder just how current he is with modern operating systems and techniques. He obviously has no idea what SpinRite is, how it works or even the concept of directly
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Hi Robert, cc questions@ cc postmaster@ (***) What I am is an information systems professional with 45 years experience. Interesting reading that your prior post. 'Edge of the track, turn up the op. amps' has been an interesting technique for decades, I first read of it maybe 70's or 80's ? I bet some, eg in government or private espionage, desperate incompetent bankers, their employed service firms, probably had fun seeing what was possible. (Envy ;-) BTW I too wrote a recoverer way back, just for floppies http://berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/jhs/bin/public/valid/ Worked very well, recovered data while wearing media out. I ported it to FreeBSD, but it was never as good there, I never hacked BSD drivers to support it to do bit averaging if all CRCs failed. (***) Re.: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl People could ask postmas...@freebsd.org (cc'd) to block troll Wojciech Puchar. His blinkered noise pollutes too often, while too many have failed to reason with him, on too many subjects on questions@ hackers@. I someone on hackers@ already filter out his noise. http://berklix.com/~jhs/dots/.procmailrc.lists Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, cumulative like a play script, indent with . Format: Plain text. Not HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. Mail from Yahoo Hotmail dumped @Berklix. http://berklix.org/yahoo/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
-offtopic- (...) like he works at a small Polish SMB, more commonly referred to as a SOHO in more developed countries. Not really sure what you wanted to imply, as SMB looks like americanism to me. -- View this message in context: http://freebsd.1045724.n5.nabble.com/fsck-on-FAT32-filesystem-tp5727015p5728037.html Sent from the freebsd-questions mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:58:22 +0200 From: Julian H. Stacey j...@berklix.com Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? Hi Robert, cc questions@ cc postmaster@ (***) What I am is an information systems professional with 45 years experience. Interesting reading that your prior post. 'Edge of the track, turn up the op. amps' has been an interesting technique for decades, I first read of it maybe 70's or 80's ? I bet some, eg in government or private espionage, desperate incompetent bankers, their employed service firms, probably had fun seeing what was possible. (Envy ;-) All I'm going to say is: 1) There's a _reason_ the gov't requires hard drives with anthing higher than 'somewhat' classified data on them to be =physically= destroyed before leving the secure area. 2) As of 2007, 'over-writing' data (regardless of how many times) is *not* sufficient, any more, for _any_ military purposes. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
It appears I was mistaken. Care to elaborate? Most people on this list seem to speak highly of SpinRite. first - it is off topic. second - because all commercial software like that are designed for uneducated user, mostly try to automatically do everything. Which is a danger not help. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On 07/17/2012 11:36 AM, Wojciech Puchar wrote: It appears I was mistaken. Care to elaborate? Most people on this list seem to speak highly of SpinRite. first - it is off topic. second - because all commercial software like that are designed for uneducated user, mostly try to automatically do everything. Which is a danger not help. Hi This is an old story. You can look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpinRite and the talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ASpinRite http://allthatiswrong.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/steve-gibson-is-a-fraud/ I have never used this tool because dd has always sufficed. Even with an almost end of hardware life (takketaketakke noise generating) disk I have been able to create an image (even with hitting the disk case because heads got stuck) and rescue data from it with plain dd. This has been more then 8 years ago, since then I make sure to always have multiple good back-ups Disclaimer: http://www.ose.nl/email ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:36:07 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar articulated: It appears I was mistaken. Care to elaborate? Most people on this list seem to speak highly of SpinRite. first - it is off topic. second - because all commercial software like that are designed for uneducated user, mostly try to automatically do everything. Which is a danger not help. I love reading your posts first thing in the morning Wojciech. After having read them I have assured myself that I cannot possible read anything more asinine for the rest of the day. Your replies are as sour as verjuice and of even less usefulness. To call you an incorrigible malcontent would be to simply state the obvious. Your spiel is abstruse, rarely on topic and totally self serving. You continue to cast aspersions and heap maledictions upon any who dare to disagree with you. Quite frankly, your postings are about as useful as tits on a bull. It is with great pleasure that I am creating a kill filter to bounce anymore such mail from you that I should be so unfortunate as to receive. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Mon Jul 16 01:17:33 2012 Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:15:13 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl To: Polytropon free...@edvax.de Cc: FreeBSD freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? read attempts. In worst case, there will be gaps in the result. Surely SpinRite is more clever than that, i would bet otherwise. simple tools and free tools are always better You continue to demonsteate that you don't know what you don't know. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Surely SpinRite is more clever than that, i would bet otherwise. simple tools and free tools are always better You continue to demonsteate that you don't know what you don't know. are you another sponsored by some recovery tool commercial producer? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
read attempts. In worst case, there will be gaps in the result. Surely SpinRite is more clever than that, i would bet otherwise. simple tools and free tools are always better ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012, Adam Vande More wrote: On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: totally in error. SpinRite will attempt to read a damage sector up to 2000 times and through different algorithms determine what is most man dd Even better, recoverdisk /dev/da0 /dev/da1 true :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Sun Jul 15 16:31:45 2012 Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 23:29:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl To: FreeBSD freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? totally in error. SpinRite will attempt to read a damage sector up to 2000 times and through different algorithms determine what is most man dd conv=sync,noerror This is *precisely* why dd is _grossly_inferior_ to professional-grade tools like Spinrite. With the settings the resident infallible expert on everything *SNORT* recommends, dd will make _one_ attempt to read each disk sector, going through the O/S's device driver code, and write out 'whatever it got', regardless of whether or not ane sort of read-error was signalled. This results in GUARANNTEED, *UNRECOVERABLE*, GARBAGE in the copy, _every_ place where a read error was encountered. This result can be marginally acceptable -- for 'first-cut' attempts at accessing 'easily recoverable' data on the disk. 'dd' is purely 'amateurville', however, when it comes to recovering =critical= data inside an 'unreadable' (by the O/S) disk block. Spinrite, and other professional-grade tools, run absolutely stand-alone, without the use of _any_ O/S drivers, or even BIOS code. Spinrite _directly_ programs the hard-disk-controller chip, can retrieve into memory _every_ bit -- including address-marks, sector framing, recorded ECC bits, and so on -- on a track, for analysis, can seek from an inner track, read the bits, then seek from an _outer_ track, and do another read. It can also do things like step the heads 'fractionally' off the track center, and read _there_. By doing these kinds of *very*low*level* operations, that are forbidden to any 'userland' task, by an O/S, tools like Spinrite can do a FAR BETTER job of extracting data from damaged disks. Professional-grade tools can also do things like 'pre-initialize' the I/O buffer _in_the_disk_itself_, with _different_ bit patterns on multiple read passes, They can thus find bitstrings that are (a) the 'prior data' in th buffer, (b) bits that are read consistently from the disk, and (c) bits that 'change value' from one read attempt to the next. This allows such tools to do a much better job of RECONSTRUCTING the actual data in the 'error' sector(s). Make a copy, and work only on the copy _is_ good advice for attempting 'simple' data recovery with tools that run in 'userland', under an O/S. When the 'simple' approach fails, or is insufficient, it is time to bring out the big guns -- things like Spinrite -- which -require- direct accesss to the original damaged disk. Since Spinrite, and similar tools, operate READ-ONLY on the disk -- which is *not* guaranteed if there is a general-purpose O/S in the wa -- it _is_ generally safe to let them access the damaged original. The problematic situation is where spinning up the drive causes -more- damage to the media.. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:04:31 -0500 (CDT) Robert Bonomi articulated: From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Sun Jul 15 16:31:45 2012 Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 23:29:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl To: FreeBSD freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? totally in error. SpinRite will attempt to read a damage sector up to 2000 times and through different algorithms determine what is most man dd conv=sync,noerror This is *precisely* why dd is _grossly_inferior_ to professional-grade tools like Spinrite. With the settings the resident infallible expert on everything *SNORT* recommends, dd will make _one_ attempt to read each disk sector, going through the O/S's device driver code, and write out 'whatever it got', regardless of whether or not ane sort of read-error was signalled. This results in GUARANNTEED, *UNRECOVERABLE*, GARBAGE in the copy, _every_ place where a read error was encountered. This result can be marginally acceptable -- for 'first-cut' attempts at accessing 'easily recoverable' data on the disk. 'dd' is purely 'amateurville', however, when it comes to recovering =critical= data inside an 'unreadable' (by the O/S) disk block. Spinrite, and other professional-grade tools, run absolutely stand-alone, without the use of _any_ O/S drivers, or even BIOS code. Spinrite _directly_ programs the hard-disk-controller chip, can retrieve into memory _every_ bit -- including address-marks, sector framing, recorded ECC bits, and so on -- on a track, for analysis, can seek from an inner track, read the bits, then seek from an _outer_ track, and do another read. It can also do things like step the heads 'fractionally' off the track center, and read _there_. By doing these kinds of *very*low*level* operations, that are forbidden to any 'userland' task, by an O/S, tools like Spinrite can do a FAR BETTER job of extracting data from damaged disks. Professional-grade tools can also do things like 'pre-initialize' the I/O buffer _in_the_disk_itself_, with _different_ bit patterns on multiple read passes, They can thus find bitstrings that are (a) the 'prior data' in th buffer, (b) bits that are read consistently from the disk, and (c) bits that 'change value' from one read attempt to the next. This allows such tools to do a much better job of RECONSTRUCTING the actual data in the 'error' sector(s). Make a copy, and work only on the copy _is_ good advice for attempting 'simple' data recovery with tools that run in 'userland', under an O/S. When the 'simple' approach fails, or is insufficient, it is time to bring out the big guns -- things like Spinrite -- which -require- direct accesss to the original damaged disk. Since Spinrite, and similar tools, operate READ-ONLY on the disk -- which is *not* guaranteed if there is a general-purpose O/S in the wa -- it _is_ generally safe to let them access the damaged original. The problematic situation is where spinning up the drive causes -more- damage to the media.. +1 I use to keep SpinRite on a flash drive that I could easily carry with me if needed. Of course that would require the machine to be worked on to have the ability to boot from a flash drive. Unfortunately, not all of them could. Fortunately, I almost never need an industrial strength recovery product like SpinRite. It is nice to know it is available if I do though. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: This is *precisely* why dd is _grossly_inferior_ to professional-grade tools like Spinrite. With the settings the resident infallible expert on everything *SNORT* recommends, dd will make _one_ attempt to read each disk sector, going through the O/S's device driver code, and write out 'whatever it got', regardless of whether or not ane sort of read-error was signalled. This results in GUARANNTEED, *UNRECOVERABLE*, GARBAGE in the copy, _every_ place where a read error was encountered. This result can be marginally acceptable -- for 'first-cut' attempts at accessing 'easily recoverable' data on the disk. 'dd' is purely 'amateurville', however, when it comes to recovering =critical= data inside an 'unreadable' (by the O/S) disk block. Spinrite, and other professional-grade tools, run absolutely stand-alone, without the use of _any_ O/S drivers, or even BIOS code. Spinrite _directly_ programs the hard-disk-controller chip, can retrieve into memory _every_ bit -- including address-marks, sector framing, recorded ECC bits, and so on -- on a track, for analysis, can seek from an inner track, read the bits, then seek from an _outer_ track, and do another read. It can also do things like step the heads 'fractionally' off the track center, and read _there_. By doing these kinds of *very*low*level* operations, that are forbidden to any 'userland' task, by an O/S, tools like Spinrite can do a FAR BETTER job of extracting data from damaged disks. Professional-grade tools can also do things like 'pre-initialize' the I/O buffer _in_the_disk_itself_, with _different_ bit patterns on multiple read passes, They can thus find bitstrings that are (a) the 'prior data' in th buffer, (b) bits that are read consistently from the disk, and (c) bits that 'change value' from one read attempt to the next. This allows such tools to do a much better job of RECONSTRUCTING the actual data in the 'error' sector(s). Make a copy, and work only on the copy _is_ good advice for attempting 'simple' data recovery with tools that run in 'userland', under an O/S. When the 'simple' approach fails, or is insufficient, it is time to bring out the big guns -- things like Spinrite -- which -require- direct accesss to the original damaged disk. Since Spinrite, and similar tools, operate READ-ONLY on the disk -- which is *not* guaranteed if there is a general-purpose O/S in the wa -- it _is_ generally safe to let them access the damaged original. The problematic situation is where spinning up the drive causes -more- damage to the media.. +1 I use to keep SpinRite on a flash drive that I could easily carry with me if needed. Of course that would require the machine to be worked on to have the ability to boot from a flash drive. Unfortunately, not all of them could. Fortunately, I almost never need an industrial strength recovery product like SpinRite. It is nice to know it is available if I do though. SpinWrong is a scam, Gibson is a fraud, and this conversation is pure marketing gibberish. I thought most had overcome this credulity years ago. It appears I was mistaken. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:04:31 -0500, Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com wrote: This is *precisely* why dd is _grossly_inferior_ to professional-grade tools like Spinrite. I bet you are a big fan of homeopathic treatments too, aren't you? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On 07/16/2012 10:10, Mark Felder wrote: On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:04:31 -0500, Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com wrote: This is *precisely* why dd is _grossly_inferior_ to professional-grade tools like Spinrite. I bet you are a big fan of homeopathic treatments too, aren't you? ___ Nice ad hominem there. Very impressive. Perhaps we can sink a bit lower by making some random comments about people's mothers while we're at it. I've used Spinrite a few times with good results. It does take forever at times. I've also used the dd trick with good results. -- Dave Robison Sales Solution Architect II FIS Banking Solutions 510/621-2089 (w) 530/518-5194 (c) 510/621-2020 (f) da...@vicor.com david.robi...@fisglobal.com _ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
` Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:03:37 -0500 From: Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? SpinWrong is a scam, Gibson is a fraud, and this conversation is pure marketing gibberish. I thought most had overcome this credulity years ago. It appears I was mistaken. Everyone has the inalienable right to be wrong. Far be it from me to attempt to impair your exercise of your rights.` ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Mon Jul 16 12:12:47 2012 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:10:34 -0500 From: Mark Felder f...@feld.me Subject: Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem? On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:04:31 -0500, Robert Bonomi bon...@mail.r-bonomi.com wrote: This is *precisely* why dd is _grossly_inferior_ to professional-grade tools like Spinrite. I bet you are a big fan of homeopathic treatments too, aren't you? Homepoathic treatments are extremely effective. ... at demonstrating the placebo effect. *GRIN* ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Mon, 16 Jul 2012, Adam Vande More wrote: SpinWrong is a scam, Gibson is a fraud, and this conversation is pure marketing gibberish. I thought most had overcome this credulity years ago. It appears I was mistaken. Care to elaborate? Most people on this list seem to speak highly of SpinRite. I'd be interested to know if they are all deluded, because I've been thinking of buying it. -- Chris Hill ch...@monochrome.org ** [ Busy Expunging / ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
SpinWrong is a scam, Gibson is a fraud, and this conversation is pure marketing gibberish. maybe you exaggerate but this is what i feel in that discussion. instead of help - seemed like marketing. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:23 AM, Ronald F. Guilmette r...@tristatelogic.comwrote: Is there any such a tool (as fsck for FAT32) available for freeBSD? If so, where would I find it? /sbin/fsck_msdosfs -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Is there any such a tool (as fsck for FAT32) available for freeBSD? If so, where would I find it? fsck_msdosfs but, in spite of some fanatics here my get worried, i do recommend use windoze scandisk. When recovering data from FAT32 i've proven myself what is actually a better tool. unless your disk is badly corrupted fsck_msdosfs would be fine too. but gets funny crashes when there are thousands of losts files. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 10:56:22 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar articulated: Is there any such a tool (as fsck for FAT32) available for freeBSD? If so, where would I find it? fsck_msdosfs but, in spite of some fanatics here my get worried, i do recommend use Window's Scandisk. If you absolutely, positively have to recover the drive, I would recommend SpinRite 6 http://www.grc.com/intro.htm. Its not free; however, I have witnessed it recovering drives that other utilities gave up on. The only problem is that if you use another utility first it may mangle up the drive so bad that SpinRite cannot correct it. Its not quick either. I have seen it take an entire week to rebuild an 80 GB drive, but it DID actually recover all of the data. The choice is yours; however, running SpinRite at its maximum strength -- 5 -- is about as good as it gets unless you want to try a commercial outlet. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On 15/07/2012 09:56, Wojciech Puchar wrote: but, in spite of some fanatics here my get worried, i do recommend use windoze scandisk. I'd forgotten about scandisk - for modern Windows (XP and newer) you'll want to use chkdsk ( e.g. 'chkdsk /F C:' ). -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
Is there any such a tool (as fsck for FAT32) available for freeBSD? If so, where would I find it? There's fsck_msdosfs, part of the base system. Regular fsck should call it automatically if you run it on a FAT filesystem. R's, John ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012, Bruce Cran wrote: On 15/07/2012 09:56, Wojciech Puchar wrote: but, in spite of some fanatics here my get worried, i do recommend use windoze scandisk. I'd forgotten about scandisk - for modern Windows (XP and newer) you'll want to use chkdsk ( e.g. 'chkdsk /F C:' ). both do the same -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
If you absolutely, positively have to recover the drive, I would recommend SpinRite 6 http://www.grc.com/intro.htm. Its not free; again i would recommend standard windows scandisk. such tools as the other utilities are usually not better. make sure you have full disk backup anyway ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On 15/07/2012 19:43, Wojciech Puchar wrote: both do the same 'scandisk' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
In message CA+tpaK0H=L8pcSkOxxAekfy2rQV49-sWof0FDPsutb8=04b...@mail.gmail.com , Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:23 AM, Ronald F. Guilmette r...@tristatelogic.comwrote: Is there any such a tool (as fsck for FAT32) available for freeBSD? If so, where would I find it? /sbin/fsck_msdosfs Thank you. That sure sounds like it ought to do the trick. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
In message 5002b996.2000...@cran.org.uk, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote: On 15/07/2012 09:56, Wojciech Puchar wrote: but, in spite of some fanatics here my get worried, i do recommend use windoze scandisk. I'd forgotten about scandisk - for modern Windows (XP and newer) you'll want to use chkdsk ( e.g. 'chkdsk /F C:' ). Thank you. I had considered maybe using scandisk/chkdsk, but I loath turning on my one and only Windoze system unless I have to. (Mostly I keep it turned off so that its inherently evil aura will not accidently leak out and perhaps contaminate any of my other equipment.) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 20:43:57 +0200 (CEST)
Wojciech Puchar articulated:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012, Bruce Cran wrote:
On 15/07/2012 09:56, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
but, in spite of some fanatics here my get worried, i do recommend
use windoze scandisk.
I'd forgotten about scandisk - for modern Windows (XP and newer)
you'll want to use chkdsk ( e.g. 'chkdsk /F C:' ).
^
[VOLUME[PATH]FILENAME]] /F
Use the [/R] option to recover data {implies /F}
In any case, SpinRite is a much better option.
both do the same
No they don't.
1) Unlike CHKDSK, ScanDisk would also repair cross linked files.
2) ScanDisk cannot check NTFS disk drives, and therefore it is
unavailable for computers that may be running NT based (including
Windows 2000, Windows XP, etc.) versions of Windows.
--
Jerry ♔
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Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 11:51:57 -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: In message CA+tpaK0H=L8pcSkOxxAekfy2rQV49-sWof0FDPsutb8=04b...@mail.gmail.com , Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:23 AM, Ronald F. Guilmette r...@tristatelogic.comwrote: Is there any such a tool (as fsck for FAT32) available for freeBSD? If so, where would I find it? /sbin/fsck_msdosfs Thank you. That sure sounds like it ought to do the trick. It will do its job: Check the file system's integrity. From that point, you will either have the answer that everything is okay, or you have to go into the direction of recovery. In that case, different tools need to be used. For example, make an 1:1 copy using dd (or ddrescue or dd_rescue) of the disk. Work with a copy of that copy. Do not alter the disk. Then use tools that do the job of recovery (see my list postings about that topic, they contain a good list of tools you can use on UNIX). The suggestion of SpinRite is also good, even though the program is expensive. I'm confident it's worth its money. But if you are willing to _learn_ (which means to read and to experiment), the free recovery tools available through the Ports Collection are really good. Example: I had to recover data from a USB stick that Windows had repaired, so no files could be read anymore. Getting a copy of the stick required a long time (because it was already damaged), but with the help of the free programs, I could recover _all_ files from the stick, and hand them over to a happy customer. But as I said, it may be possible that you don't have to walk the rugged streets of data recovery. :-) Suggestion: First use fsck_msdosfs without any parameters so it will ONLY CHECK the disk without altering anything (also see man fsck for -n, -v and maybe -d). Addendum: For dealing with non-standard file systems (such as FAT/msdosfs), the use of the _native tools_ seems to be the best solution in most times. In exceptions, it makes things worse. Still in most situations it just does the right thing. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:48:23 +0200 Polytropon articulated: For example, make an 1:1 copy using dd (or ddrescue or dd_rescue) of the disk. Work with a copy of that copy. Do not alter the disk. Then use tools that do the job of recovery (see my list postings about that topic, they contain a good list of tools you can use on UNIX). The suggestion of SpinRite is also good, even though the program is expensive. I'm confident it's worth its money. But if you are willing to _learn_ (which means to read and to experiment), the free recovery tools available through the Ports Collection are really good. If I might interject here, making a copy is obviously imperative; however, it also exposes a severe problem. You are working under the assumption that the copy is actually correct.In fact, it is simply what is being read from the disk at the time of the copy. It may in fact be totally in error. SpinRite will attempt to read a damage sector up to 2000 times and through different algorithms determine what is most likely the correct data. Obviously it cannot do that if it is working with a copy of the drive. It must have access to the original drive. I have to admit that am partial to SpinRite since it saved my ass twice in the past 10 years when no other software could do the job 100%. Hence, if you cannot afford to lose your data, back it up. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
totally in error. SpinRite will attempt to read a damage sector up to 2000 times and through different algorithms determine what is most man dd conv=sync,noerror ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: totally in error. SpinRite will attempt to read a damage sector up to 2000 times and through different algorithms determine what is most man dd Even better, recoverdisk /dev/da0 /dev/da1 -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: fsck on FAT32 filesystem?
On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 23:29:39 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar wrote: totally in error. SpinRite will attempt to read a damage sector up to 2000 times and through different algorithms determine what is most man dd conv=sync,noerror Even though it doesn't use different algorithms, programs like dd_rescue and ddrescue can also change the block size upon encountering read errors, and apply several cycles of read attempts. In worst case, there will be gaps in the result. Surely SpinRite is more clever than that, using some means to extrapolate the missing data. http://www.garloff.de/kurt/linux/ddrescue/ http://www.gnu.org/software/ddrescue/ddrescue.html -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
