Re: The Perfect Desktop: FreebSD 8.2 in Virtualbox 4?
On Sun, 22 May 2011 17:56:37 -0400, Xn Nooby xno...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: On Sun, 22 May 2011 15:17:50 -0400, Xn Nooby xno...@gmail.com wrote: HowtoForge has a lot of good examples of how to install and configure a desktop system using various Linux distributions, but there are none on how to create a FreeBSD desktop. Would someone will be willing to put one together? U think the majority of FreeBSD users who use the system on their desktop won't agree on the one desktop, as everyone I've encountered so far has different preferences and requirements. So a generalized statement is quite hard. There are systems with preconfigured desktops, such as PC-BSD, DesktopBSD and FreeSBIE. I'm thinking about new users, rather than typical users. A typical FreeBSD user probably already knows how to configure a desktop that is ideal for them. A new user will take whatever they can get working, and keep working. Hmmm... Then we have different observations about what a new FreeBSD user means. In my opinion, those who come to FreeBSD don't come here from nothing - i. e. they traditionally have a UNIX or at least Linux background and begin understanding that FreeBSD doesn't come as a preinstalled and preconfigured desktop - it CAN'T, as it is a multi-purpose operating system that you can use on desktops of course, but also on servers and on mixed forms. Those who do not want to understand the OS, but want a preconfigured system, will quickly orientate to use PC-BSD or some other system which already has the goal to exactly provide that: a preconfigured system for a specific target audience. This brings up another question: Why would somebody want to build a system on his own when he can download the result already? I envision this more of a how-to than just providing an appliance. But that would be a good starting point for learning on how the inventors of VirtualBSD (to name an appliance) have done it, and build an own system from there on, keeping The FreeBSD Handbook at hand. See http://www.virtualbsd.info/ for details. I had previously visited their site, but they did not have instructions on how they created the appliance, or a forum to discuss it. I think they did create it in a similar way as how anyone (with sufficient knowledge) can create such a system using FreeBSD and the appropriate tools. As we discuss free and open software here, it should be possible to deduct the chain of creation from mentally de-compiling the results. In most cases, things can be observed back to files modified and programs installed. When I configured the sound driver on my machines, I had to go through a discovery process to find out what driver was required on each machine. Inside a VM, you would know what driver to load, and you could just tell the user to install the sound driver with this command. You wouldn't have to tell them how to figure out which driver to install. I just have limited experience with virtualized hardware on a PC basis, but shouldn't it be possible to define the kind of DSP when creating the VM - so a VM could also have different virtual sound cards installed? I would expect that a typical new desktop user would be using an old computer purchased before they knew anything about FreeBSD. Or even more likely, a virtual machine hosted on a Windows box. Unlike mainstream operating systems, FreeBSD is able to deliver good results on older hardware, but only if the person who installs the system has sufficient knowledge about which ports to install (NB: older software may be the better solution here!). But I agree that providing a lightweight-oriented system could be a good approach. It doesn't mean that you need to run older versions of the OS - in fact you can run 8.2 even on a 300 MHz machine. :-) Some parameters for the guide could be: - uses 8.2 installer - tracks errata branch with FreeBSD update - tracks 8-stable branch for ports Depends on preferred usage paradigm. Yes and that paradigm would have to be properly defined. My definition would be that of a hobbyist desktop user who wants a functioning and maintainable desktop enviroment. In the Debian example I gave, their included software implies their target audience. I'm not interested in hosting 5000 jails, running a database cluster, or acting as the neighborhood ISP. For most ports from the desktop area, running -STABLE is eing suggested. But this involves system updates per src/ updating and compiling. On the other hand, if you keep using RELEASE-pX, using freebsd-update, you _could_ run into trouble from time to time (depending on ports installed). - demonstrates how to install many desktop apps That would be covered by how to install additional software, which means pkg_add, make install, or a port management tool. Maybe you refer to how to involve graphical port
The Perfect Desktop: FreebSD 8.2 in Virtualbox 4?
HowtoForge has a lot of good examples of how to install and configure a desktop system using various Linux distributions, but there are none on how to create a FreeBSD desktop. Would someone will be willing to put one together? I envision this more of a how-to than just providing an appliance. The goal would be to show how to configure the system on a hardware-neutral platform (Virtualbox VM), so that people could use it as an example for setting up their own systems. I suspect a lot of people would use this guide for setting up a laptop, so an underpowered VM would be a good proxy. Some parameters for the guide could be: - uses 8.2 installer - tracks errata branch with FreeBSD update - tracks 8-stable branch for ports - builds from source minimally (laptops are slow!) - demonstrates how to install many desktop apps - uses a lightweight VM, icewm or openbox ? - optionally uses a heavyweight WM, Gnome3 ? - ideally demonstrates best practices - looks good, with nice fonts - optionally supports openGL (desktop users would need that) - optionally includes tips for upgrading to 8.3+ Here is the page for Debian Lenny as an example: http://www.howtoforge.com/the-perfect-desktop-debian-lenny I know the Handbook has everything it it, but I am looking for something that can leverage the fact that in a VM the hardware is known in advance. The instructions could then be very direct, and would not have to cover all possible situations. They would simply be do exactly these commands. Admittedly I am asking for what I need, but there might be others who could benefit. I have been trying to make a script to do these automatically, but I am still having problems understanding certain things. I could help some, by testing, and I can write an install script to automate anything that I can understand. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: The Perfect Desktop: FreebSD 8.2 in Virtualbox 4?
On Sun, 22 May 2011 15:17:50 -0400, Xn Nooby xno...@gmail.com wrote: HowtoForge has a lot of good examples of how to install and configure a desktop system using various Linux distributions, but there are none on how to create a FreeBSD desktop. Would someone will be willing to put one together? U think the majority of FreeBSD users who use the system on their desktop won't agree on the one desktop, as everyone I've encountered so far has different preferences and requirements. So a generalized statement is quite hard. There are systems with preconfigured desktops, such as PC-BSD, DesktopBSD and FreeSBIE. I envision this more of a how-to than just providing an appliance. But that would be a good starting point for learning on how the inventors of VirtualBSD (to name an appliance) have done it, and build an own system from there on, keeping The FreeBSD Handbook at hand. See http://www.virtualbsd.info/ for details. The goal would be to show how to configure the system on a hardware-neutral platform (Virtualbox VM), so that people could use it as an example for setting up their own systems. I'm sure the handbook's sections about the required parts can be very easily applied to virtual hardware, as they are generic enough to cover them. I suspect a lot of people would use this guide for setting up a laptop, so an underpowered VM would be a good proxy. Due to hardware limitations (incompatible parts) mostly found in modern laptops, I would assume that FreeBSD users prefer running the system on hardware that is known to work... Some parameters for the guide could be: - uses 8.2 installer - tracks errata branch with FreeBSD update - tracks 8-stable branch for ports Depends on preferred usage paradigm. - builds from source minimally (laptops are slow!) There are laptops with resources equal to a fullblown desktop machine. :-) - demonstrates how to install many desktop apps That would be covered by how to install additional software, which means pkg_add, make install, or a port management tool. Maybe you refer to how to involve graphical port management abstractors? - uses a lightweight VM, icewm or openbox ? Or WindowMaker? :-) - optionally uses a heavyweight WM, Gnome3 ? Until it stops working. :-) - ideally demonstrates best practices Also depends on requirements, by users or by setting in which the system should be used (e. g. security policies, prohibition of standard means of communication and so on). - looks good, with nice fonts Looks good also depends VERY. - optionally supports openGL (desktop users would need that) Would they? :-) I know that average desktop users seem to get addicted to certain bling, but some lines above, you mentioned that laptops are slow, and the resources required for eye candy... are they included here? - optionally includes tips for upgrading to 8.3+ Also the standard means apply here. Here is the page for Debian Lenny as an example: http://www.howtoforge.com/the-perfect-desktop-debian-lenny Yes, a very pictural step-by-step guide. For FreeBSD users who traditionally are educated in how UNIX in general and FreeBSD in special case do need to be operated, this may not be the primary kind of information supply, but I may be wrong here. I know the Handbook has everything it it, but I am looking for something that can leverage the fact that in a VM the hardware is known in advance. The instructions could then be very direct, and would not have to cover all possible situations. They would simply be do exactly these commands. But then this would depend on the VM's settings that needed to be in the preface, and this would be the same as keeping instructions generic and giving the additional advice of change this if needed. Admittedly I am asking for what I need, but there might be others who could benefit. That's understandable, but could you describe the target audience a bit better? I have been trying to make a script to do these automatically, but I am still having problems understanding certain things. And I may predict that exactly those things are needed to be understood to get the whole show running. Learning by doing is nothing wrong here, although it requires some reading. I could help some, by testing, and I can write an install script to automate anything that I can understand. I know that the default installer sysinstall has a feature for scripting, but you could easily write your own installer that uses e. g. ZFS or GPT initialisation for the (virtual) disk instead of the traditional run of fdisk + disklabel + newfs. Providing packages for the required software (and ALL their dependencies) would also be a good step, so installation could even be done in an offline environment without ending with broken software. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
Re: The Perfect Desktop: FreebSD 8.2 in Virtualbox 4?
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: On Sun, 22 May 2011 15:17:50 -0400, Xn Nooby xno...@gmail.com wrote: HowtoForge has a lot of good examples of how to install and configure a desktop system using various Linux distributions, but there are none on how to create a FreeBSD desktop. Would someone will be willing to put one together? U think the majority of FreeBSD users who use the system on their desktop won't agree on the one desktop, as everyone I've encountered so far has different preferences and requirements. So a generalized statement is quite hard. There are systems with preconfigured desktops, such as PC-BSD, DesktopBSD and FreeSBIE. I'm thinking about new users, rather than typical users. A typical FreeBSD user probably already knows how to configure a desktop that is ideal for them. A new user will take whatever they can get working, and keep working. I envision this more of a how-to than just providing an appliance. But that would be a good starting point for learning on how the inventors of VirtualBSD (to name an appliance) have done it, and build an own system from there on, keeping The FreeBSD Handbook at hand. See http://www.virtualbsd.info/ for details. I had previously visited their site, but they did not have instructions on how they created the appliance, or a forum to discuss it. The goal would be to show how to configure the system on a hardware-neutral platform (Virtualbox VM), so that people could use it as an example for setting up their own systems. I'm sure the handbook's sections about the required parts can be very easily applied to virtual hardware, as they are generic enough to cover them. When I configured the sound driver on my machines, I had to go through a discovery process to find out what driver was required on each machine. Inside a VM, you would know what driver to load, and you could just tell the user to install the sound driver with this command. You wouldn't have to tell them how to figure out which driver to install. I suspect a lot of people would use this guide for setting up a laptop, so an underpowered VM would be a good proxy. Due to hardware limitations (incompatible parts) mostly found in modern laptops, I would assume that FreeBSD users prefer running the system on hardware that is known to work... I would expect that a typical new desktop user would be using an old computer purchased before they knew anything about FreeBSD. Or even more likely, a virtual machine hosted on a Windows box. Some parameters for the guide could be: - uses 8.2 installer - tracks errata branch with FreeBSD update - tracks 8-stable branch for ports Depends on preferred usage paradigm. Yes and that paradigm would have to be properly defined. My definition would be that of a hobbyist desktop user who wants a functioning and maintainable desktop enviroment. In the Debian example I gave, their included software implies their target audience. I'm not interested in hosting 5000 jails, running a database cluster, or acting as the neighborhood ISP. - builds from source minimally (laptops are slow!) There are laptops with resources equal to a fullblown desktop machine. :-) - demonstrates how to install many desktop apps That would be covered by how to install additional software, which means pkg_add, make install, or a port management tool. Maybe you refer to how to involve graphical port management abstractors? I would prefer to stick with command-line tools, but in a controlled environment that won't fail. Maybe that is not possible when tracking stable (ironically). For example, I've spent most of the last 72 hours trying to install firefox, flash (via linux_base-10), and virtualbox-ose-additons in to a stable environment, and only firefox is working. About once a year for the last 6 years I try to setup a FreeBSD desktop, and eventually get frustrated and go back to linux. - uses a lightweight VM, icewm or openbox ? Or WindowMaker? :-) - optionally uses a heavyweight WM, Gnome3 ? Until it stops working. :-) - ideally demonstrates best practices Also depends on requirements, by users or by setting in which the system should be used (e. g. security policies, prohibition of standard means of communication and so on). - looks good, with nice fonts Looks good also depends VERY. - optionally supports openGL (desktop users would need that) Would they? :-) I know that average desktop users seem to get addicted to certain bling, but some lines above, you mentioned that laptops are slow, and the resources required for eye candy... are they included here? If Virtualbox supports hardware-accelerated graphics on 64-bit FreeBSD guests, then yes. - optionally includes tips for upgrading to 8.3+ Also the standard means apply here. Yes, but it would potentially be less error-prone with known hardware devices being emulated. Here
