Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Sun Feb 28 06:00:33 2010 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:59:56 + From: Matthew Seaman m.sea...@infracaninophile.co.uk To: Erik Trulsson ertr1...@student.uu.se Cc: freebsd-questions freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: selling freebsd cd for profit -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 28/02/2010 11:43:42, Erik Trulsson wrote: The difference is that when you just give a link to a well-known site you have no guarantees that they will keep the source for that particular version of the software in question for as long as needed. Uh -- so what? Until the download site disappears, there's no problem. If it does disappear, then /obviously/ you have to make alternative arrangements. But that is a bridge that doesn't need to be crossed until you've reached it. NOT so. The difference _is_ that people who got the software 'before' the download site disappeared have _only_ that download site as the reference for 'where to go' to get the source. Either you (the distributor) maintain a download site yourself -- so you can guarantee that the reference you give out _will_ be good/valid for the required time after the last copy of the code you gave out, *OR* you have to maintain a list of -everyone- who got your code -- directly or *indirectly* (this is the hard part, it _is_ freely redistributable, how do you know who it was RE-distributed to?) -- so that, if/when the 'well known' site stops carrying the source, you can notify *everybody* where the 'new' download site is. If the place where you 'told' someone they could find source-code disappears before the expiration of the required time, then you _are_ in violation of the license, even if the disappearance of that site was 'through no fault of your own'. The fact that said source-code is available 'somewhere else' does *NOT* mitigate the violation of the license terms. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 28/02/2010 01:56:27, Chad Perrin wrote: Actually, once your project becomes a commercial enterprise, the GPL stops allowing reference to upstream sources to suit the requirements of code redistribution. If you sell GPLed software, you have to provide the sources yourself -- and, if you offer the *option* of access to the sources without actually ensuring that everybody gets a copy of the sources right away, you have to maintain sources for each distributed version for a number of years after the last such distribution. I'm not saying you *don't* have to maintain sources that long after the fact if you make sure everybody gets a copy right away; I haven't read the text of the GPL in detail in a while, and don't recall that specific detail. Hmmm... I think the concept of 'modification' is pretty important here. If you're just redistributing software without modifying it, you've fulfilled the intent of the GPL simply by giving a link to a well-known download site. After all, what's the difference between that, and your outsourcing a download facility to a service provider like, say, SourceForge? If you're distributing /modified/ GPL'd code, then yes, you have to make your modifications available for download. Ideally that would be by donating them back to the core project, but if they aren't acceptable for whatever reason, then you do have to slap them on a web/ftp site somewhere. Note that I'm not a lawyer, and this does not constitute legal advice. My only direct legal advice is to seek legal advice from a professional. It's a sad world where we have to keep restating the obvious in disclaimers: anyone believing the advice they get from a bunch of semi-anonymous people they only know from a mailing list deserves everything they get[*]. Whatever happened to caveat emptor? Cheers, Matthew [*] Generally that would be a better result than from much paid-for support... - -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuKTykACgkQ8Mjk52CukIzKhwCgglHBXzABf7W2AZp2S+5TT/UK jlIAn3fmByk119lL8d8pauwUWGldneKR =U73K -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:10:33AM +, Matthew Seaman wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 28/02/2010 01:56:27, Chad Perrin wrote: Actually, once your project becomes a commercial enterprise, the GPL stops allowing reference to upstream sources to suit the requirements of code redistribution. If you sell GPLed software, you have to provide the sources yourself -- and, if you offer the *option* of access to the sources without actually ensuring that everybody gets a copy of the sources right away, you have to maintain sources for each distributed version for a number of years after the last such distribution. I'm not saying you *don't* have to maintain sources that long after the fact if you make sure everybody gets a copy right away; I haven't read the text of the GPL in detail in a while, and don't recall that specific detail. Hmmm... I think the concept of 'modification' is pretty important here. If you're just redistributing software without modifying it, you've fulfilled the intent of the GPL simply by giving a link to a well-known download site. After all, what's the difference between that, and your outsourcing a download facility to a service provider like, say, SourceForge? The difference is that when you just give a link to a well-known site you have no guarantees that they will keep the source for that particular version of the software in question for as long as needed. Going by the strict letter of the GPL (v2) I don't see that merely providing a link to somebody else's site is sufficient. -- Insert your favourite quote here. Erik Trulsson ertr1...@student.uu.se ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 28/02/2010 11:43:42, Erik Trulsson wrote: The difference is that when you just give a link to a well-known site you have no guarantees that they will keep the source for that particular version of the software in question for as long as needed. Uh -- so what? Until the download site disappears, there's no problem. If it does disappear, then /obviously/ you have to make alternative arrangements. But that is a bridge that doesn't need to be crossed until you've reached it. Cheers, Matthew - -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuKWrsACgkQ8Mjk52CukIxbYwCghEsUfLKXF1FfV1qYOd3r2lWq X4sAn3vIJxyBwwCtCtUA2KG+eCbXgUls =uZU7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:10:33 + Matthew Seaman m.sea...@infracaninophile.co.uk articulated: Note that I'm not a lawyer, and this does not constitute legal advice. My only direct legal advice is to seek legal advice from a professional. It's a sad world where we have to keep restating the obvious in disclaimers: anyone believing the advice they get from a bunch of semi-anonymous people they only know from a mailing list deserves everything they get[*]. Whatever happened to caveat emptor? Cheers, Matthew [*] Generally that would be a better result than from much paid-for support... I agree Matthew, except that we live a world that has become consumed with lawyers who are willing to sue anybody, anytime for anything. Corporations pay exorbitant fees for insurance and legal counsel in an attempt to protect themselves against nuisance suits. Perhaps if the tort system were changed and the instituter and lawyer of the suit were made to pay all expenses, plus the amount being sued for in an unsuccessful lawsuit things would change dramatically. Unfortunately, that will not be happening soon. - -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com |=== |=== |=== |=== | No one should have to wait until after ten o'clock for his english muffin! Snoopy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJLilv2AAoJEGnxpuiKsj5SXNcH/jfnuonFPkPr+LFZQFqcskDO ULjaCC/EFG3dJMrXeVugZqOEoFQw2bIvZcHgZRv/ts5VnEOzAT42p1LpCdlemp9j MIOf9eIZqa7b4xkGZNZVVTAnXjjwcAZpRAH9pp5FpVFmWqd+sDIErz2om3Q5b3qH LSVqail6zDjPmXdwqf0iSuuSS43ho33TYL/BY/zTUGzrWXcdH43sE/YKbQENYvNw IqWiMXvCqZVbuJjSKTBWE6OT++D+D1qelt2o5aLsh7thXgNKq2CzdHwXCnF6GnVu IUi6S1GpHgTp+6j9ecCV8XnsI//2OQZqzMCqrUMCcsKlAKHsdDSiBfBauH25Y8U= =7qZp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:10:33AM +, Matthew Seaman wrote: On 28/02/2010 01:56:27, Chad Perrin wrote: Actually, once your project becomes a commercial enterprise, the GPL stops allowing reference to upstream sources to suit the requirements of code redistribution. If you sell GPLed software, you have to provide the sources yourself -- and, if you offer the *option* of access to the sources without actually ensuring that everybody gets a copy of the sources right away, you have to maintain sources for each distributed version for a number of years after the last such distribution. I'm not saying you *don't* have to maintain sources that long after the fact if you make sure everybody gets a copy right away; I haven't read the text of the GPL in detail in a while, and don't recall that specific detail. Hmmm... I think the concept of 'modification' is pretty important here. If you're just redistributing software without modifying it, you've fulfilled the intent of the GPL simply by giving a link to a well-known download site. After all, what's the difference between that, and your outsourcing a download facility to a service provider like, say, SourceForge? If you're distributing /modified/ GPL'd code, then yes, you have to make your modifications available for download. Ideally that would be by donating them back to the core project, but if they aren't acceptable for whatever reason, then you do have to slap them on a web/ftp site somewhere. Unfortunately, such measures are not really sufficient -- at least for my own level of comfort if I'm going to redistribute GPLed code. For instance, one must ask what happens if upstream doesn't accept your modification. Do you just not distribute your modified version, then, or do you go back to figuring out how to distribute it directly in accordance with the GPL? Must you hold off on distribution the entire time until either upstream accepts the modification or you come up with some other distribution means to make up for the lack of upstream acceptance? Is referring to upstream actually in accord with the GPL, or is it just likely to eliminate the likelihood of getting sued for an infringement that actually occurred? Obviously, a lawyer should be consulted to answer such questions. I find it's a lot cheaper to just treat all these questions as if they are answered in the least friendly manner. Note that I'm not a lawyer, and this does not constitute legal advice. My only direct legal advice is to seek legal advice from a professional. It's a sad world where we have to keep restating the obvious in disclaimers: anyone believing the advice they get from a bunch of semi-anonymous people they only know from a mailing list deserves everything they get[*]. Whatever happened to caveat emptor? I agree completely; it *is* a sad thing. Still, I don't want anyone claiming I represented myself as a lawyer and trying to sue me, so I keep offering the lame disclaimers. [*] Generally that would be a better result than from much paid-for support... That's also probably true, especially given that many of us actually have more first-hand knowledge of open source licensing than a lot of copyright lawyers whose jobs revolve around well established precedent for how and when one is allowed to sing Happy Birthday or how best to threaten (ex-)employees with lawsuits if they ever try to get a job with a competitor. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] pgpZphvxyHaOm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:59:56AM +, Matthew Seaman wrote: On 28/02/2010 11:43:42, Erik Trulsson wrote: The difference is that when you just give a link to a well-known site you have no guarantees that they will keep the source for that particular version of the software in question for as long as needed. Uh -- so what? Until the download site disappears, there's no problem. If it does disappear, then /obviously/ you have to make alternative arrangements. But that is a bridge that doesn't need to be crossed until you've reached it. Actually, a couple of Linux distribution projects have been threatened with lawsuits for referring to upstream sources, even while the sources were still there, because those projects were identified by the people making such threats as commercial enterprises. Probably the highest profile instance was MEPIS. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] pgpY6dtq6f1bk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
On 2/27/10 2:58 AM, Matthew Seaman wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 27/02/2010 24:50:54, Citra Cool wrote: can i selling free bsd for my profit?? is it legal?? In a word, yes -- sure you can. All you have to do is abide by the terms of the licensing. You sure that this applies in a couple countries where they have rather draconian laws about selling software that supports any type of encryption? It's a big world out there, with many interesting laws. -- --Jon Radel j...@radel.com
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
On 02/27/10 12:22, Jon Radel wrote: On 2/27/10 2:58 AM, Matthew Seaman wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 27/02/2010 24:50:54, Citra Cool wrote: can i selling free bsd for my profit?? is it legal?? In a word, yes -- sure you can. All you have to do is abide by the terms of the licensing. You sure that this applies in a couple countries where they have rather draconian laws about selling software that supports any type of encryption? It's a big world out there, with many interesting laws. That would be for the interested party to find out on their own, since we cannot possibly know the laws for each and every country out there. I find it hard enough to keep up with the laws in my own. -- Yours In Christ, PIT Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
On 2/27/10 1:31 PM, Programmer In Training wrote: On 02/27/10 12:22, Jon Radel wrote: On 2/27/10 2:58 AM, Matthew Seaman wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 27/02/2010 24:50:54, Citra Cool wrote: can i selling free bsd for my profit?? is it legal?? In a word, yes -- sure you can. All you have to do is abide by the terms of the licensing. You sure that this applies in a couple countries where they have rather draconian laws about selling software that supports any type of encryption? It's a big world out there, with many interesting laws. That would be for the interested party to find out on their own, since we cannot possibly know the laws for each and every country out there. I find it hard enough to keep up with the laws in my own. Well, duh! However, in personal correspondence, the OP refuses to even say what country he or she wants to do this in and simply reiterates the original question, despite strong hints, both on and off list, to get local expertise. -- --Jon Radel j...@radel.com
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 27/02/2010 18:47:05, Jon Radel wrote: On 2/27/10 1:31 PM, Programmer In Training wrote: On 02/27/10 12:22, Jon Radel wrote: On 2/27/10 2:58 AM, Matthew Seaman wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 27/02/2010 24:50:54, Citra Cool wrote: can i selling free bsd for my profit?? is it legal?? In a word, yes -- sure you can. All you have to do is abide by the terms of the licensing. You sure that this applies in a couple countries where they have rather draconian laws about selling software that supports any type of encryption? It's a big world out there, with many interesting laws. That would be for the interested party to find out on their own, since we cannot possibly know the laws for each and every country out there. I find it hard enough to keep up with the laws in my own. Well, duh! However, in personal correspondence, the OP refuses to even say what country he or she wants to do this in and simply reiterates the original question, despite strong hints, both on and off list, to get local expertise. As far as I know FreeBSD is not actually illegal anywhere in the world, although I guess there may be a few unenlightened places where they don't understand the necessity of strong encryption on today's Internet. Even so, you can strip the crypto out, and it still counts as FreeBSD. Anyhow, any local restrictions are the OP's problem: the only point on which I or anyone else on this list are qualified to offer an opinion is the interpretation of the various licenses involved. Even so, it's strictly amateur: I have no legal qualifications or license to practice. [My advice is free and worth every penny. It even comes with a full money-back guarantee...] Cheers, Matthew - -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuJa/QACgkQ8Mjk52CukIwfJwCfQQXYMCNWY1AyPeQahCHyarEc sDMAn1l6Sg6MV0dz7EPT9tPgcewx7gVd =NLUz -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 07:58:51AM +, Matthew Seaman wrote: Some parts of the material in FreeBSD is under GPL, which means that you have to ensure source code is available for those bits: if you're redistributing the standard .iso images from the FreeBSD web sites, you can just point to the ways of getting the sources in the Handbook. Actually, once your project becomes a commercial enterprise, the GPL stops allowing reference to upstream sources to suit the requirements of code redistribution. If you sell GPLed software, you have to provide the sources yourself -- and, if you offer the *option* of access to the sources without actually ensuring that everybody gets a copy of the sources right away, you have to maintain sources for each distributed version for a number of years after the last such distribution. I'm not saying you *don't* have to maintain sources that long after the fact if you make sure everybody gets a copy right away; I haven't read the text of the GPL in detail in a while, and don't recall that specific detail. Note that I'm not a lawyer, and this does not constitute legal advice. My only direct legal advice is to seek legal advice from a professional. Whether reselling for profit something that anyone can get for free is a viable business proposition I'll leave up to your better judgement. That's really true of software under *any* license -- because it's basically free to copy and distribute. The only question is whether it's reasonable to expect to be able to get the government to enforce your business model for you. If not (as in the case of something distributed under the terms of the BSD license), you'll probably need to offer something additional (such as local presence for physical, face to face transactions, or a package deal with something else, or perhaps free support above and beyond what's available from the FreeBSD project itself, and so on). -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] pgpEQ7IE1Q20m.pgp Description: PGP signature
selling freebsd cd for profit
can i selling free bsd for my profit?? is it legal?? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org Fri Feb 26 19:15:05 2010 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:50:54 +0700 From: Citra Cool cc.bel...@gmail.com To: freebsd-questions freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: selling freebsd cd for profit can i selling free bsd for my profit?? is it legal?? Have you read the FreeBSD license? _can_ you read the FreeBSD license? Do you have a attorney/lawyer/barrister/soliciter? Have you *asked* _your_ attorney's/lawyer's/barrister's/soliciter's opinion, after showing him/her the FreeBSD license? Be forewarned that any such action is likely, according to reliable but un- named sources cited in a recent edition of The Onion, to be regarded as a capital crime in the State of Confusion. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: selling freebsd cd for profit
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 27/02/2010 24:50:54, Citra Cool wrote: can i selling free bsd for my profit?? is it legal?? In a word, yes -- sure you can. All you have to do is abide by the terms of the licensing. Primarily, that's the FreeBSD license which says that you can do what you like with the software and documentation, just don't deny credit to the people that actually wrote it. Some parts of the material in FreeBSD is under GPL, which means that you have to ensure source code is available for those bits: if you're redistributing the standard .iso images from the FreeBSD web sites, you can just point to the ways of getting the sources in the Handbook. Whether reselling for profit something that anyone can get for free is a viable business proposition I'll leave up to your better judgement. Cheers, Matthew - -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuI0LsACgkQ8Mjk52CukIxh/wCfczzd3M82l1OJgXJ1hNfJ6i3Y lScAnjkDsr4/fjdEKvcMNUpCPdKjWX29 =8EjN -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
