Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On 2018-Oct-04 08:44:11 +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: >Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. What exactly >is the burden here? As various others have stated, this isn't true. All the code in FreeBSD has an ongoing maintenance cost and is an impediment to adding new features. There is no point in spending valuable developer effort to update drivers and test them with unusual/obsolete hardware unless those drivers are going to actually be used. >Another question: why the fuck FreeBSD likes to kill >non-broken, low-volatile and perfectly working stuff? That language is uncalled for. >We offer probably >the best NIC driver support on the block, yet you're proposing to shrink >one of the few areas where we shine. WTF?! Supporting NICs that no-one uses doesn't benefit anyone. No-one is talking about removing NICs that are in active use. >ae(4) was used in Asus EeePC 701/900 which are still popular among hackers. Those netbooks are more than a decade old now and I don't expect many are still functional. Will people still expect to use them with FreeBSD 13 in 5 years time? >As it can be seen this list tends to cover nearly all 100 cards, yet no >one (pardon me if I missed those) asks for 10. So how about making this >proposal cover only 10 cards, What is the purpose in keeping unused FastEthernet cards in the tree? >if you can't resist the itch to remove >something from the tree? Again, that language is uncalled for. -- Peter Jeremy signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On 04/10/2018 20:54, Doug Hardie wrote: I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that listed in either category. None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has not been released. Also there are some with rl. Those are add-on boards so they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error prone process when you are tired). bge is gigabit (I believe it actually stands for Broadcom Gigabit Ethernet) and thus wont be covered, as its only the 10/100 devices being propsed for removal. I too have a lot of machines with bge onboard, though we only use them on 100 meg ether in the main. -pete. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that listed in either category. None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has not been released. Also there are some with rl. Those are add-on boards so they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error prone process when you are tired). I also have two production machines with ue devices. There is no provision for replacing them. They are running an early version of 12 as 11 doesn't run on those machines. I don't see ue listed in either category. -- Doug > On 3 October 2018, at 14:05, Brooks Davis wrote: > Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > The criteria for exception are: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. > > The full FCP-0101 is included below. > > -- Brooks > > --- > authors: Brooks Davis > state: feedback > --- > > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers > > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before > FreeBSD 13. > > ## Problem Statement > > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded > 32-bit compatibility. For example, the author has edited every single > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`) > interfaces. We could improve this situation by converting drivers to > iflib, but each additional driver takes work. > > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. > > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices. We wish to > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while > removing support for uncommon ones. With a few exceptions these > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024). > > ## Proposed Solution > > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. This > will entail: > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and > attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes > to FreeBSD 12. > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind > freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated > devices. > > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception > list and update this document as required. For a device to be placed on > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the > support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). > - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > ### Exceptions to removal > > Device | Reason > ---|- > ffec | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards > fxp| Popular device long recommended by the project. > dc | Popular device for CardBus card. > hme| Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms. > le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64. > sis| Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx,
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
In message <11826345-1b82-46cb-894c-e567725f8...@bway.net>, Charles Sprickman v ia freebsd-fcp writes: > > > > On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), nfe, a > nd sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory for which I > can test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath too. > > I also have a stack of old stuff (almost certain thereâs at least one vx in > there - VORTEX power!). If anyone needs cards, please contact me and if I h > ave it, Iâll send it your way. Also have some old video (AGP), sound (ISA) > , SATA (PCI-X) and other total rando stuff. > > One place I see the older cards are in some firewall boxes that are in SFF bo > xes. Old PCI 10/100 NICs are more than adequate for backup WAN purposes (xDSL > , cable, etc.) and some of the SFF boxes have one pci-e plus one pci slot and > thatâs it. My firewall has most of them. It has 2 sk(4), 2 nfe(4), fxp(4), and xl(4), with xl and fxp connected to my ISP and the others on my internal network. My testbed has sk(4), nfe(4), and dc(4), connected to my DMZ, for ipfilter testing. My main build machine and my current laptop have sk(4), nfe(4), bge(4), while my i386 testbed (an old laptop) has rl(4). I have a spare motherboard (in case something breaks, while I purchase a replacement) with nv(4). All parts, including CPUs, are interchangeable. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 12:23:17PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:18 PM Eugene Grosbein wrote: > > > 05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as > > it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports > > in my home router). > > > > Sorry, I'd meant to type vx. :) It's for the first generation of 3com cards > after the 3C5x9 ones supported by the ep driver. I mentioned vx. Working fine here: vx0: <3COM 3C590 Etherlink III PCI> port 0x1100-0x111f irq 20 at device 0.0 on pci16 -- Joel ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
>FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) Can I open a FCP to rename FCP to FBS (for FreeBSD BikeShed) ? Guys... most if not all of these emails could have been sent to directly Brooks without Cc'ing four mailing lists. Then Brooks could revise his tallies and scores to match informed reality and _then_ we could discuss if the criteria were sound on the list(s). Poul-Henning (singing an almost 20 year old refrain again) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Cy Schubert wrote: > > I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), nfe, and > sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory for which I > can test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath too. I also have a stack of old stuff (almost certain there’s at least one vx in there - VORTEX power!). If anyone needs cards, please contact me and if I have it, I’ll send it your way. Also have some old video (AGP), sound (ISA), SATA (PCI-X) and other total rando stuff. One place I see the older cards are in some firewall boxes that are in SFF boxes. Old PCI 10/100 NICs are more than adequate for backup WAN purposes (xDSL, cable, etc.) and some of the SFF boxes have one pci-e plus one pci slot and that’s it. Charles > > --- > Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. > Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. > Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. > > Cy Schubert > or > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > --- > > -Original Message- > From: Rick Macklem > Sent: 04/10/2018 07:41 > To: Warner Losh; Alexey Dokuchaev > Cc: FreeBSD Net; freebsd-...@freebsd.org; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE > Mailing List; freebsd-a...@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers > > Warner Losh wrote: > [lots of stuff snipped] >> That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to >> iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, >> common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not >> dozens. > > I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both. > Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted, > so I can see what needs to be done? > > Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree. > > [more stuff snipped] > > rick > > ___ > freebsd-a...@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
PowerPC is a split between Gigabit and Megabit Ethernet, I hope those drivers aren’t getting removed. Get Outlook for iOS On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:13 PM -0400, "Andrea Venturoli via freebsd-stable" wrote: On 10/4/18 7:38 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. I still have a vr integrated on an old MotherBoard. As I said, if it goes away I'll find another solution; if it stays, the better. I doubt it will survive until late 2023, BTW. bye av. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
04.10.2018 21:26, Mark Linimon wrote: > You can buy used core i5 laptops for around $20 if you shop around. And plus even more for overseas delivery. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how > > > > > > > common > > it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to > > > > > > Brooks. Brooks > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I > > > > > guessed wrong > > > > here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I > > > > > knew it > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's > > > > > popularity had > > > > waned > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems > > > > > with rl in > > them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the > > > > > SBCs we > > used > > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old > > > > > technology > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare > > > > > availability...). > > > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of > > > > Microchip) are > > > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping > > > > software > > > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build > > > > systems with a > > > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability > > > > and > > > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a > > > > BIG reason > > > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > > > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production > > > years > > > ago It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users > > > of > > > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. > > > That's a > > > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the > > > efforts that > > > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > > > > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should > > > still > > be > > > > > > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was > > > one that > > > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used > > > in around > > > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will > > > ever be > > > upgraded But I have to ask since I know how things worked > > > during my > > > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times > > > were > > > later... > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, > > > sn, smc, > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > > thread, and > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > > > Warner > > I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the > > list > > we still use appears to be rl. > > > > One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So > > I'll > > just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. > > > I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and > that you > may someday upgrade them as well? Which of the Vortex86 processors > are you > using, if you can answer that... > > Warner It's a DM Vortex86DX on a PCA-6743 board, which you can still buy. 32-bit only, BTW, which is why I hate hearing recent mumblings about discarding 32-bit x86 support in freebsd. -- Ian ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:18 PM Eugene Grosbein wrote: > 05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote: > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as > it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports > in my home router). > Sorry, I'd meant to type vx. :) It's for the first generation of 3com cards after the 3C5x9 ones supported by the ep driver. Warner ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote: > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports in my home router). ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
04.10.2018 23:22, Brooks Davis wrote: > In an effort to save some email, we will be moving rl(4) to the list of > drivers to STAY as it has proved itself to be popular. A few others > appear to be well on their way so keep the reports coming. And ste(4) please, as these are hardly replaceable two- and four-ports cards. In many cases it is impossible to replace them without replacement of whole boxes that have no extra PCI slots. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On 10/4/18 7:38 PM, Warner Losh wrote: I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. I still have a vr integrated on an old MotherBoard. As I said, if it goes away I'll find another solution; if it stays, the better. I doubt it will survive until late 2023, BTW. bye av. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > > here > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > > waned > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used > > at > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > > because > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > > > Warner > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years > ago It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be > upgraded But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were > later... > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > Warner I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list we still use appears to be rl. One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. -- Ian ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common > it is. > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks > as > > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > > > here > > > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it > was > > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > > > waned > > > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in > them > > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we > used > > > at > > > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > > > because > > > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > > > > > Warner > > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years > > ago It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of > > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a > > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that > > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still > be > > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that > > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around > > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be > > upgraded But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my > > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were > > later... > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > Warner > > I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list > we still use appears to be rl. > > One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll > just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. > I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and that you may someday upgrade them as well? Which of the Vortex86 processors are you using, if you can answer that... Warner ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > wrote: > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong here > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had waned > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used at > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology because > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > Warner 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. -- Ian ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > wrote: > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > here > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > waned > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used > at > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > because > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > Warner > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years ago It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that it's taken them to keep things current with rl. In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be upgraded But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were later... I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. Warner ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan wrote: > tech-lists wrote: > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as > far as I can see is just the messenger. > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong here in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had waned much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used at Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology because that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). Warner ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< A few points of clarification: Rod correctly points out that this message makes it look like the FCP is a done deal as written. This is not the case and we welcome feedback on the entire proposal. IMO, soliciting input on the list of drivers along with the proposed process is a way to keep discussion concrete so we will proceed with both. It was asked: when does iflib conversion need to occur to save a driver? My proposed plan it to proceed with deprecation notices of otherwise unpopular drivers, but conversion can come in and remove those notices at and upto (or even after) removal from the tree. In an effort to save some email, we will be moving rl(4) to the list of drivers to STAY as it has proved itself to be popular. A few others appear to be well on their way so keep the reports coming. Thanks, Brooks P.S. As a person who has edited every driver in the tree multiple times in the last year (mostly in an external tree), I will consider this process successful even if we keep the majority of listed drivers in the tree. On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +, Brooks Davis wrote: > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is: > > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl > > The criteria for exception are: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the >support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). >- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.) > > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. > > The full FCP-0101 is included below. > > -- Brooks > > --- > authors: Brooks Davis > state: feedback > --- > > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers > > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before > FreeBSD 13. > > ## Problem Statement > > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded > 32-bit compatibility. For example, the author has edited every single > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`) > interfaces. We could improve this situation by converting drivers to > iflib, but each additional driver takes work. > > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today > and we have a significant number of them in the tree. The ones that > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development. > > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices. We wish to > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while > removing support for uncommon ones. With a few exceptions these > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024). > > ## Proposed Solution > > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular. This > will entail: > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable. > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and >attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes >to FreeBSD 12. > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind >freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion. > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated >devices. > > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception > list and update this document as required. For a device to be placed on > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria: > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the >support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023). >- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be > deemed satisfy the "popular" > requirement. > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable. > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:59 AM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert > > wrote: > > > > > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not > > > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, > > > including wireless, currently installed here. > > > > > > > There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has > > evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and > > committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the > current > > iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend. > > Nothing in the current state of the "freeze" would block a > man page correction. > All commits, no matter how trivial, require re@ approval. That necessarily slows things down, hence my phrase "as quickly as the freeze allows." Warner ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
tech-lists wrote: I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks as far as I can see is just the messenger. -- Michelle Sullivan http://www.mhix.org/ ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
People need to submit patches then. OTOH, they can all be moved to ports. IMO, when pkgbase becomes a reality, much of this will become moot. People will be able to mix and match base and ports packages. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -Original Message- From: Alexey Dokuchaev Sent: 04/10/2018 08:11 To: Warner Losh Cc: Mark Linimon; freebsd-a...@freebsd.org; freebsd-...@freebsd.org; FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List; FreeBSD Net Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:43:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps. Right. My point was that original proposal put 10/100 drivers into one basket, which is IMHO not fair: 10Mbps cards are rarely seen and used, 100mbps are not, just like 1000bps ones. That said, I'm okay with deorbiting NICs that cannot do more than 10mbps. Cards that can do at least 100mbps should stay. Following up on Ricks' question, seeing a good example of modernization a certain driver would help interested people/hw owners to keep drivers for their cards viable. ./danfe ___ freebsd-a...@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert > wrote: > > > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not > > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, > > including wireless, currently installed here. > > > > There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has > evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and > committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the current > iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend. Nothing in the current state of the "freeze" would block a man page correction. -- Rod Grimes rgri...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert wrote: > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, > including wireless, currently installed here. > There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the current iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend. Warner ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), nfe, and sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory for which I can test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath too. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -Original Message- From: Rick Macklem Sent: 04/10/2018 07:41 To: Warner Losh; Alexey Dokuchaev Cc: FreeBSD Net; freebsd-...@freebsd.org; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List; freebsd-a...@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers Warner Losh wrote: [lots of stuff snipped] >That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to >iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, >common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not >dozens. I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both. Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted, so I can see what needs to be done? Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree. [more stuff snipped] rick ___ freebsd-a...@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, including wireless, currently installed here. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -Original Message- From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sent: 04/10/2018 07:03 To: Warner Losh Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List; FreeBSD Net; freebsd-a...@freebsd.org; freebsd-...@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers In message , Warner Losh writes: >Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the >years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation >because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the >tree. As one who has been there, a couple of times: SECONDED! It is particular unpleasant when you have no way to test the changes. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ freebsd-a...@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:43:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps. Right. My point was that original proposal put 10/100 drivers into one basket, which is IMHO not fair: 10Mbps cards are rarely seen and used, 100mbps are not, just like 1000bps ones. That said, I'm okay with deorbiting NICs that cannot do more than 10mbps. Cards that can do at least 100mbps should stay. Following up on Ricks' question, seeing a good example of modernization a certain driver would help interested people/hw owners to keep drivers for their cards viable. ./danfe ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 02:26:44PM +, Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > > OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen > > > one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs > > > are in fact 100. > > > > Sigh. If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in > > 2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD. > > I don't quite understand why are you grouping 10/100 vs. 1000 rather than > 10 vs. 100/1000. > As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps. They were all specifically 10Mbps or 10/100Mbps. Support for 10Mbps or 100Mbps isn't being removed from the tree: there's still dozens of GigE drivers that can do those speeds that have PCI or better bus attachments. Warner ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 02:26:44PM +, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > > OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen > > one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs > > are in fact 100. > > Sigh. If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in > 2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD. I don't quite understand why are you grouping 10/100 vs. 1000 rather than 10 vs. 100/1000. ./danfe ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
Warner Losh wrote: [lots of stuff snipped] >That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to >iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, >common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not >dozens. I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both. Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted, so I can see what needs to be done? Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree. [more stuff snipped] rick ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen > one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs > are in fact 100. Sigh. If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in 2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD. You can buy used core i5 laptops for around $20 if you shop around. mcl ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
In message , Warner Losh writes: >Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the >years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation >because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the >tree. As one who has been there, a couple of times: SECONDED! It is particular unpleasant when you have no way to test the changes. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:45 AM Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. What exactly > is the burden here? > I believe that characterization is incorrect. There's a burden. And it's death of a thousand cuts. And many of those cuts have been inflicted on brooks@. Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the tree. I did a back of the envelope computation that this is on the order of hundreds of hours of time, spread across all the drivers over all the years we've supported them. Some of these drivers are clearly unused, and so that's 100% wasted effort. Most of these drivers are on machines that most likely won't be able to run 13.0 well when it comes out in 2 years due to increased memory demands that it will almost certainly have. The declining use means we anticipate that if we were to maintain them until 13, it would be wasted effort for at least some on the list. That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid, common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not dozens. At the root of this problem is the community's long resistance to having data reported back to the project data about the machines running FreeBSD. Absent any real and significant data, the only way to know if things are unused is to ask. We cannot have the act of merely asking cause people to freak out and hurl expletives all over the place. That's significantly not cool. Warner ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
Alexey Dokuchaev writes: > Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. Please do not confuse “nobody is maintaining them” with “they don't need maintenance”, because they do. And please assume good faith. Brooks asked for people to speak up if they care about some of the drivers he proposed to remove; all you had to do was say “I still use this driver”. There was no need to attack him, much less to swear. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - d...@des.no ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
## Alexey Dokuchaev (da...@freebsd.org): > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > Holy shit! OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't > seen one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs > are in fact 100. Don't panic - they're talking about removing the 100 MBps NICS, not the 100 GBps NICs. Jokes aside - obviously there are very different populations of NICS. Here, the only 100MBps interface is in the IP phone, and I would guess that even most consumer hardware comes with a GBps interface on board (heck, even RPis have a GBit interface, even if can't use more than 30% of it's bandwith). Checking with a hardware-dealer: very few NICs in their catalog are 100MBps, most are gigabit-grade. I would have expected that things look different in the embedded world... On the other hand, some data centers I know routinely use 10GBps, and 1 GBps is considered "legacy" there. So, perceptions are very different... let's keep this rational and make a list of cards still in use. Regards, Christoph -- Spare Space ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
FreeBSD 12 PowerPC won’t boot at all.
Subject says it all, that and it inverts the boot selector when selected. Tested it on my eMac G4 1.25 GHz (Retail). Last version of FreeBSD that works for me is 11.1, as 11.2 doesn’t boot all the way (hangs on cryptosoft0) Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On 03/10/18 22:05, Brooks Davis wrote: We are solictiting feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe Please do not remove rl. I have two rl interfaces in a machine built in 2011 still in daily use. One rl interface is an aftermarket card bought new in *2016*. The other one is built into the motherboard. That's just the stuff I personally own. rl is in lots of machines which will probably still be running a decade from now. I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is. -- J. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: 11.2-RELEASE panics with a bit of load
Hi Rainer, I do noticed that the default vfs.zfs.arc_max seems too aggressive, as it will cause tings like rsync swapping in and out, esp. on configs having 32GB RAM, and smaller. So if a reduced arc_max works, I'd suggest you check your swap device. Some SSDs are known to have issues under huge IO workload, like high latency thus abort host commands and force the system reties on read. Regards, meowthink On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 3:06 PM wrote: > > Am 2018-10-04 05:53, schrieb Holger Kipp: > > Dear Rainer, > > > > if no one else is experiencing these errors, then it is probably a > > hardware error. > > I had once encountered problems with incompatible memory (combination > > of memory (ok with other boards) and board (ok with other memory) did > > not work properly). The issue could be triggered with a simple > > buildworld within minutes. However memtest86 could run for hours > > without finding a thing. > > Please don‘t rely on memtest86 if it does not report any problems. > > > > To be sure: check / adjust memory timings, remove and/or replace > > memory modules and try to trigger the error again. > > > > Best regards, > > Holger Kipp > > > > I have this problem on two machines, actually. > It would be highly unlikely for both to have hardware problems. > Though possible, of course. > > Reducing ARC seems to help, though, and I assume that is the problem the > machine ran into because I still have 29GB out of 32GB wired now, with > an ARC limited to 60% of kmem_size. > > > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +, Brooks Davis wrote: FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and improving the network stack. > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. Sill using my Asus EeePC 701 (just bought a new battery pack) for FreeBSD with ae nic (and I do not foresee discontinuing its use any time soon as its serial port comes in handy for talking to other serial devices). ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +, Brooks Davis wrote: > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 Holy shit! OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs are in fact 100. > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > improving the network stack. Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance. What exactly is the burden here? Another question: why the fuck FreeBSD likes to kill non-broken, low-volatile and perfectly working stuff? We offer probably the best NIC driver support on the block, yet you're proposing to shrink one of the few areas where we shine. WTF?! > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe ae(4) was used in Asus EeePC 701/900 which are still popular among hackers. My home router uses sf(4) happily. It's a dual-port card and I don't want to look for expensive and completely needless replacement. Other people have already told you about ed/rl/etc. > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list. As it can be seen this list tends to cover nearly all 100 cards, yet no one (pardon me if I missed those) asks for 10. So how about making this proposal cover only 10 cards, if you can't resist the itch to remove something from the tree? ./danfe ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: 11.2-RELEASE panics with a bit of load
Am 2018-10-04 05:53, schrieb Holger Kipp: Dear Rainer, if no one else is experiencing these errors, then it is probably a hardware error. I had once encountered problems with incompatible memory (combination of memory (ok with other boards) and board (ok with other memory) did not work properly). The issue could be triggered with a simple buildworld within minutes. However memtest86 could run for hours without finding a thing. Please don‘t rely on memtest86 if it does not report any problems. To be sure: check / adjust memory timings, remove and/or replace memory modules and try to trigger the error again. Best regards, Holger Kipp I have this problem on two machines, actually. It would be highly unlikely for both to have hardware problems. Though possible, of course. Reducing ARC seems to help, though, and I assume that is the problem the machine ran into because I still have 29GB out of 32GB wired now, with an ARC limited to 60% of kmem_size. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
