Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-30 Thread O. Hartmann

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  
I tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: Fri 
Aug 29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel and 
also capable of installing all things like I did in the past, but ZFS 
seems still broken - the module does not load automatically at 
initialization time nor is it loadable via kldload (there is an error 
about missing opensolaris module but I can't find anything about this 
module ...).


It's new, you need to build it.

Kris
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Well, I hoped the 'buildworld' build everything process would do so? Do 
I need an extra option in my kernel config?


Thanks,

Oliver
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-30 Thread Kris Kennaway

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  
I tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: Fri 
Aug 29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel and 
also capable of installing all things like I did in the past, but ZFS 
seems still broken - the module does not load automatically at 
initialization time nor is it loadable via kldload (there is an error 
about missing opensolaris module but I can't find anything about this 
module ...).


It's new, you need to build it.

Kris
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Well, I hoped the 'buildworld' build everything process would do so? Do 
I need an extra option in my kernel config?


It is a kernel module, it doesn't get built by buildworld (by default). 
 If you use the default build settings for your kernel, it builds all 
modules including this one.  If you use MODULES_OVERRIDE or similar to 
specify a list of modules to build, you have to add it to the list.


Kris
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-30 Thread O. Hartmann

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing 
builds.  I tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: Fri 
Aug 29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel and 
also capable of installing all things like I did in the past, but 
ZFS seems still broken - the module does not load automatically at 
initialization time nor is it loadable via kldload (there is an 
error about missing opensolaris module but I can't find anything 
about this module ...).


It's new, you need to build it.

Kris
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Well, I hoped the 'buildworld' build everything process would do so? 
Do I need an extra option in my kernel config?


It is a kernel module, it doesn't get built by buildworld (by 
default).  If you use the default build settings for your kernel, it 
builds all modules including this one.  If you use MODULES_OVERRIDE or 
similar to specify a list of modules to build, you have to add it to 
the list.


Kris
The module is indeed present, and it was all the time present. Obviously 
is something wrong or not in the right order with my config. When 
makeing buildworld and then rebooting the box, ZFS module does not 
automatically load OpenSOLARIS module when it detects its absence. I 
guess  I need to fix an 'option opensolaris' in my kernel config.


Thanks,

Oliver
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-30 Thread O. Hartmann

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing 
builds.  I tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: 
Fri Aug 29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel 
and also capable of installing all things like I did in the past, 
but ZFS seems still broken - the module does not load 
automatically at initialization time nor is it loadable via 
kldload (there is an error about missing opensolaris module but I 
can't find anything about this module ...).


It's new, you need to build it.

Kris
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Well, I hoped the 'buildworld' build everything process would do so? 
Do I need an extra option in my kernel config?


It is a kernel module, it doesn't get built by buildworld (by 
default).  If you use the default build settings for your kernel, it 
builds all modules including this one.  If you use MODULES_OVERRIDE 
or similar to specify a list of modules to build, you have to add it 
to the list.


Kris
The module is indeed present, and it was all the time present. 
Obviously is something wrong or not in the right order with my config. 
When makeing buildworld and then rebooting the box, ZFS module does 
not automatically load OpenSOLARIS module when it detects its absence. 
I guess  I need to fix an 'option opensolaris' in my kernel config.


Thanks,

Oliver



here I am again. On a less critical mashine the installation process 
(buildwork/installworld and the same to the kernel) went through without 
problems. This box does have a ZFS device for backup purposes only, not 
essential.


The box starts/booot.
When I try loading either opensolaris.ko/zfs.ko, I get this:

link_elf_obj: symbol stack_save undefined
kldload: /boot/kernel/opensolaris.ko: Unsupported file type
link_elf_obj: symbol stack_save undefined
kldload: /boot/kernel/opensolaris.ko: Unsupported file type
KLD zfs.ko: depends on opensolaris - not available
kldload: /boot/kernel/zfs.ko: Unsupported file type

I guess I forgot some of the recommended compiler switches ... ??

Oliver

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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-30 Thread Kris Kennaway

O. Hartmann wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing 
builds.  I tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: 
Fri Aug 29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel 
and also capable of installing all things like I did in the past, 
but ZFS seems still broken - the module does not load 
automatically at initialization time nor is it loadable via 
kldload (there is an error about missing opensolaris module but I 
can't find anything about this module ...).


It's new, you need to build it.

Kris
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Well, I hoped the 'buildworld' build everything process would do so? 
Do I need an extra option in my kernel config?


It is a kernel module, it doesn't get built by buildworld (by 
default).  If you use the default build settings for your kernel, it 
builds all modules including this one.  If you use MODULES_OVERRIDE 
or similar to specify a list of modules to build, you have to add it 
to the list.


Kris
The module is indeed present, and it was all the time present. 
Obviously is something wrong or not in the right order with my config. 
When makeing buildworld and then rebooting the box, ZFS module does 
not automatically load OpenSOLARIS module when it detects its absence. 
I guess  I need to fix an 'option opensolaris' in my kernel config.


Thanks,

Oliver



here I am again. On a less critical mashine the installation process 
(buildwork/installworld and the same to the kernel) went through without 
problems. This box does have a ZFS device for backup purposes only, not 
essential.


The box starts/booot.
When I try loading either opensolaris.ko/zfs.ko, I get this:

link_elf_obj: symbol stack_save undefined
kldload: /boot/kernel/opensolaris.ko: Unsupported file type
link_elf_obj: symbol stack_save undefined
kldload: /boot/kernel/opensolaris.ko: Unsupported file type
KLD zfs.ko: depends on opensolaris - not available
kldload: /boot/kernel/zfs.ko: Unsupported file type

I guess I forgot some of the recommended compiler switches ... ??


The link_elf_obj error is important.  It looks like they rely on either 
DDB or STACK in your kernel.


Kris
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-30 Thread O. Hartmann

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing 
builds.  I tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: 
Fri Aug 29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel 
and also capable of installing all things like I did in the 
past, but ZFS seems still broken - the module does not load 
automatically at initialization time nor is it loadable via 
kldload (there is an error about missing opensolaris module but 
I can't find anything about this module ...).


It's new, you need to build it.

Kris
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Well, I hoped the 'buildworld' build everything process would do 
so? Do I need an extra option in my kernel config?


It is a kernel module, it doesn't get built by buildworld (by 
default).  If you use the default build settings for your kernel, 
it builds all modules including this one.  If you use 
MODULES_OVERRIDE or similar to specify a list of modules to build, 
you have to add it to the list.


Kris
The module is indeed present, and it was all the time present. 
Obviously is something wrong or not in the right order with my 
config. When makeing buildworld and then rebooting the box, ZFS 
module does not automatically load OpenSOLARIS module when it 
detects its absence. I guess  I need to fix an 'option opensolaris' 
in my kernel config.


Thanks,

Oliver



here I am again. On a less critical mashine the installation process 
(buildwork/installworld and the same to the kernel) went through 
without problems. This box does have a ZFS device for backup purposes 
only, not essential.


The box starts/booot.
When I try loading either opensolaris.ko/zfs.ko, I get this:

link_elf_obj: symbol stack_save undefined
kldload: /boot/kernel/opensolaris.ko: Unsupported file type
link_elf_obj: symbol stack_save undefined
kldload: /boot/kernel/opensolaris.ko: Unsupported file type
KLD zfs.ko: depends on opensolaris - not available
kldload: /boot/kernel/zfs.ko: Unsupported file type

I guess I forgot some of the recommended compiler switches ... ??


The link_elf_obj error is important.  It looks like they rely on 
either DDB or STACK in your kernel.


Kris
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As recommended formerly in this list I defined 'options KDTRACE_HOOKS' 
in my kernel config due to the DTRACE merge. But I do not have any 
debugging option defined yet in any of my machine's kernels because of 
performance reasons.
So, if  I understand your comment the right way, I need to enable either 
STACK or DDB or both? I will try this anyway, starting with STACK, but I 
do not understand why I'm forced to do so.


Thanks,
Oliver
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-30 Thread Kris Kennaway

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Kris Kennaway wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing 
builds.  I tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: 
Fri Aug 29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel 
and also capable of installing all things like I did in the 
past, but ZFS seems still broken - the module does not load 
automatically at initialization time nor is it loadable via 
kldload (there is an error about missing opensolaris module but 
I can't find anything about this module ...).


It's new, you need to build it.

Kris
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Well, I hoped the 'buildworld' build everything process would do 
so? Do I need an extra option in my kernel config?


It is a kernel module, it doesn't get built by buildworld (by 
default).  If you use the default build settings for your kernel, 
it builds all modules including this one.  If you use 
MODULES_OVERRIDE or similar to specify a list of modules to build, 
you have to add it to the list.


Kris
The module is indeed present, and it was all the time present. 
Obviously is something wrong or not in the right order with my 
config. When makeing buildworld and then rebooting the box, ZFS 
module does not automatically load OpenSOLARIS module when it 
detects its absence. I guess  I need to fix an 'option opensolaris' 
in my kernel config.


Thanks,

Oliver



here I am again. On a less critical mashine the installation process 
(buildwork/installworld and the same to the kernel) went through 
without problems. This box does have a ZFS device for backup purposes 
only, not essential.


The box starts/booot.
When I try loading either opensolaris.ko/zfs.ko, I get this:

link_elf_obj: symbol stack_save undefined
kldload: /boot/kernel/opensolaris.ko: Unsupported file type
link_elf_obj: symbol stack_save undefined
kldload: /boot/kernel/opensolaris.ko: Unsupported file type
KLD zfs.ko: depends on opensolaris - not available
kldload: /boot/kernel/zfs.ko: Unsupported file type

I guess I forgot some of the recommended compiler switches ... ??


The link_elf_obj error is important.  It looks like they rely on 
either DDB or STACK in your kernel.


Kris
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As recommended formerly in this list I defined 'options KDTRACE_HOOKS' 
in my kernel config due to the DTRACE merge. But I do not have any 
debugging option defined yet in any of my machine's kernels because of 
performance reasons.
So, if  I understand your comment the right way, I need to enable either 
STACK or DDB or both? I will try this anyway, starting with STACK, but I 
do not understand why I'm forced to do so.


The code you are using requires it.

Kris
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WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread Dan Allen
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  I  
tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


I get this:

   cc: Internal error: segmentation fault: 11 (program ld)

I do not have a backup ld.  (My bad.)

Where can I get a good one?  I cannot find any servers with built  
individual tools.


Thanks,

Dan Allen

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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread Daniel Eischen

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Dan Allen wrote:

Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  I tried 
the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


I get this:

 cc: Internal error: segmentation fault: 11 (program ld)

I do not have a backup ld.  (My bad.)

Where can I get a good one?  I cannot find any servers with built individual 
tools.


Judging from others regarding this problem, you may need a few
utilities.  Can you download a 7.0-RELEASE live CD image, burn
it, then use the utilities from that?

--
DE
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread Steve Bertrand

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  I 
tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: Fri Aug 
29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread Kostik Belousov
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 10:43:39AM -0600, Dan Allen wrote:
 Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  I  
 tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.
 
 I get this:
 
cc: Internal error: segmentation fault: 11 (program ld)
 
 I do not have a backup ld.  (My bad.)
 
 Where can I get a good one?  I cannot find any servers with built  
 individual tools.

The breakage from the WITH_CTF build is indicated by Abort from the
image activator. Signal 11, AKA segmentation fault, is not likely
to be caused by the dtrace MFC problems.

Just in case, if you have buildworld result intact, you should enter
/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/ld
and do
make install DEBUG_FLAGS=-g

But I think your problem is not related.


pgpRrM7DTniLr.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread Boris Samorodov
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:43:39 -0600 Dan Allen wrote:

 Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  I
 tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.

 I get this:

cc: Internal error: segmentation fault: 11 (program ld)

Yep, you need some tools installed with debug flag. I didn't try to
verify them, I just did a full installworld with that flag:
-
# cd /usr/src
# make installworld DEBUG_FLAGS=-g
-

Then reboot, csup and rebuild and reinstall the system once more. All
is well now.

 I do not have a backup ld.  (My bad.)

 Where can I get a good one?  I cannot find any servers with built
 individual tools.


WBR
-- 
Boris Samorodov (bsam)
Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone  Internet SP
FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread sthaug
 The breakage from the WITH_CTF build is indicated by Abort from the
 image activator. Signal 11, AKA segmentation fault, is not likely
 to be caused by the dtrace MFC problems.
 
 Just in case, if you have buildworld result intact, you should enter
 /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/ld
 and do
   make install DEBUG_FLAGS=-g
 
 But I think your problem is not related.

I cvsuped and built 7-STABLE just a couple of hours ago. No problems
at all. So I agree that this may be a different problem.

Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread Boris Samorodov
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:08:47 +0300 Kostik Belousov wrote:
 On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 10:43:39AM -0600, Dan Allen wrote:
  Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  I  
  tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.
  
  I get this:
  
 cc: Internal error: segmentation fault: 11 (program ld)
  
  I do not have a backup ld.  (My bad.)
  
  Where can I get a good one?  I cannot find any servers with built  
  individual tools.

 The breakage from the WITH_CTF build is indicated by Abort from the
 image activator. Signal 11, AKA segmentation fault, is not likely
 to be caused by the dtrace MFC problems.

I've also got Signal 11 breaks for this problem.

 Just in case, if you have buildworld result intact, you should enter
 /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/binutils/ld
 and do
   make install DEBUG_FLAGS=-g

My problem was with gcc, then cc... I stopped here and installed the
whole world with the debug flag. When I've read an all clean message
source update and world rebuild/reinstall helped. I don't have any zfs
filesystems here though.

 But I think your problem is not related.

Related for sure. ;-)


WBR
-- 
Boris Samorodov (bsam)
Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone  Internet SP
FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread O. Hartmann

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  I 
tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: Fri Aug 
29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel and also 
capable of installing all things like I did in the past, but ZFS seems 
still broken - the module does not load automatically at initialization 
time nor is it loadable via kldload (there is an error about missing 
opensolaris module but I can't find anything about this module ...).


oliver
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread Kris Kennaway

O. Hartmann wrote:

Steve Bertrand wrote:

Dan Allen wrote:
Well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.  Nothing builds.  I 
tried the DEBUG_FLAGS=-g trick but to no avail.


My 7.0 box upgraded fine this morning:

FreeBSD ids.eagle.ca 7.1-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 7.1-PRERELEASE #0: Fri Aug 
29 11:38:12 EDT 2008 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SMP  i386


The dmesg if it is relevant:

http://ww3.ibctech.ca/ids.dmesg

Steve
Well, mine did not. I was capable of compiling world and kernel and also 
capable of installing all things like I did in the past, but ZFS seems 
still broken - the module does not load automatically at initialization 
time nor is it loadable via kldload (there is an error about missing 
opensolaris module but I can't find anything about this module ...).


It's new, you need to build it.

Kris
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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-29 Thread Dan Allen

Dan Allen wrote previously:


well I got bit by this and am dead in the water.



I got the tools and built everything okay once again.  Thanks to  
everyone for the help!


Dan

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Re: WARNING: 7-STABLE BROKEN -- please wait to upgrade / Should be OK now

2008-08-27 Thread John Baldwin
On Wednesday 27 August 2008 01:29:43 pm Robert Watson wrote:
 On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Robert Watson wrote:
  It looks like there have been several mismerges in the DTrace MFC.  We're
  currently assessing the damage to decide if it should be entirely backed
  out, or if we can just do some selective patching up.  In the mean time,
  please don't try to update -- wait for an all clear.

 Just an update: John Baldwin has identified the set of problematic parts to
 the change, and will shortly be backing them out.  Please continue to wait
 on updating to the latest 7-STABLE until an explicit all clear message is
 sent.

I believe things should be fine on 7-stable now.

-- 
John Baldwin
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