Re: [Freedos-user] DOS/16M (was: FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues)
Hello Ralf Quint, I am not sure if you guys all missed a previous post where I said I found a reference that there are issues with some SMM BIOS implementations, providing legacy USB support (for keyboard and mice) and software that is trying to switch in "long mode" (which also might be used by some memory managers). Which could simply mean that this no-so-PC BIOS in that Mac just isn't up to snuff for these kind of things... Well, we do have some detailed information about this particular error. Namely, there is a message saying "DOS/16M: [26] 8042 timeout", and using a different DOS extender or pre-loading a DPMI host seems to work around it. Thank you! -- https://github.com/tkchia ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
Thanks Robert - I read through the bootmgr.txt file and then gave bootmgr a try. The first hard disk is a 250GB SSD with (3) 32GB FAT32 partitions. The rest of the drive is unallocated because I thought I would install a Linux partition there later on. Windows 2000 is in the first partition, FreeDOS is in the second partition. The third partition is empty. I was planning on using it for data files.FreeDOS was installed after Windows 2000. I do have a second drive but have not set up bootmgr in it. The second drive does have a working FreeDOS installation that I can access if I go into my BIOS and swap drives, which is what I'm trying to avoid. That second drive doesn't have any other operating system in it. I included a link to a screenshot of my bootmgr setup. I think I have it right but maybe not? I setup 3 choices: FreeDOS, Windows 2000, and the floppy drive. FreeeDOS gets an error. Windows 2000 and the floppy boot ok. I'm getting basically the same kind of error I was getting with other multi-boot methods. When I try to boot FreeDOS, I get a message saying" NTLDR is missing" which tells me bootmgr is probably going to the right partition because FreeDOS doesn't have a NTLDR file, which of course Windows 2000 does have. http://allenthings.com/bootmgr1.jpg Marvin Allen On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 1:20 PM Robert Riebisch wrote: > Hi Marv, > > > I spent the last 3 days fooling around with several ways to set my > > Windows 2000/FreeDOS machine set up with a multi-boot menu. I tried GAG, > > Grub4Dos, and the boot.ini file that Windows 2000 uses. > > Many years ago I had the DOS/Win2000 combo working on a single drive > using our: https://www.bttr-software.de/products/bootmgr/ > The key is to hide unneeded partitions from the other OS. > See screenshot #2. > > Cheers, > Robert > -- > +++ BTTR Software +++ > Home page: https://www.bttr-software.de/ > DOS ain't dead: https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/ > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] DOS/16M (was: FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues)
I am not sure if you guys all missed a previous post where I said I found a reference that there are issues with some SMM BIOS implementations, providing legacy USB support (for keyboard and mice) and software that is trying to switch in "long mode" (which also might be used by some memory managers). Which could simply mean that this no-so-PC BIOS in that Mac just isn't up to snuff for these kind of things... Ralf On 11/14/2020 4:34 AM, Eric Auer wrote: Hi! I like TK Chia's idea that DOS/16M tried to access the keyboard controller to change A20: It would probably stop doing that when HIMEM and/or EMM386 are loaded, but having a DPMI loaded can be even more convincing. Same for DOS4GW: If A20 control is already provided by something else, or protected mode is already being used, it is less likely to try to change the A20 itself. For PC, the BIOS tends to trap I/O to the controller so even USB keyboards can behave like real ones, but your iMac / rEFInd / CSM probably do not do this. You can still try whether one of the CTMOUSE versions is able to use the mouse via PS/2 BIOS calls with some suitable command line options. May depend on the model. VGA + VESA (graphics) works. It's discovered VESA 3.0 with LFB Quite nice :-) Sound card related experiments are still in front of me Expect only a few modern media players like MPXPLAY to support AC97 or HDA at all. If you want soundblaster compatibility, you would have to use emulators. There seems to be a DOSBOX-X version which can run inside DOS which might help with that, but the normal way would be to use Windows or Linux with DOSEMU2 ;-) Regards, Eric PS: No idea whether your CSM is rEFInd provided, Apple provided or from somewhere else. If you would know, you could simply read docs instead of testing it's features. Maybe some strings at f000:0 to f000: give answers? ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
On 11/14/2020 7:46 AM, tom ehlert wrote: Hallo Herr Marv, the windows 2000 boot.ini should work however it's complicated to advise when you keep this to yourself, including the resulting error. +1 Ralf -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
> Hey Tom - do you think Windows 2000 boot.ini is the best way to go > for my particular setup? If you do, I'll give it another try and report my > errors/messages. multibooting Windows NT/2000/XP with DOS was a 'no problem' problem in ~1995-2005, using any of multiple (boot.ini, GRUB, bootmgr, ...) ways. while this (dark age) knowledge has vanished over the years, it should still work it's magic even today. and it's completely ignored by the FreeDOS installer :-<< I have no idea if it's the BEST way to do things. it's what I use. Tom ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 04:40:00PM +0100, Tomas By wrote: > Installing Linux last has always worked for me. I'm sure there is some > way to use only the boot loader (or whatever it is). Indeed - on one of my machines I use multi-boot DOS/OpenBSD/ForthOS/Windows/Kolibri - and I copied Grub 0.97 (for Linux) to OpenBSD partition. It can be copied anywhere provided it can recognize the partition where it'll be installed -- regards, Zbigniew ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
Hey Tom - do you think Windows 2000 boot.ini is the best way to go for my particular setup? If you do, I'll give it another try and report my errors/messages. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
Hi Marv, > I spent the last 3 days fooling around with several ways to set my > Windows 2000/FreeDOS machine set up with a multi-boot menu. I tried GAG, > Grub4Dos, and the boot.ini file that Windows 2000 uses. Many years ago I had the DOS/Win2000 combo working on a single drive using our: https://www.bttr-software.de/products/bootmgr/ The key is to hide unneeded partitions from the other OS. See screenshot #2. Cheers, Robert -- +++ BTTR Software +++ Home page: https://www.bttr-software.de/ DOS ain't dead: https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
Hallo Herr Marv, the windows 2000 boot.ini should work however it's complicated to advise when you keep this to yourself, including the resulting error. Tom am Samstag, 14. November 2020 um 16:27 schrieben Sie: > I spent the last 3 days fooling around with several ways to set my > Windows 2000/FreeDOS machine set up with a multi-boot menu. I tried > GAG, Grub4Dos, and the boot.ini file that Windows 2000 uses. > > Windows 2000 is installed on the 1st hard drive, 1st partition and is my > primary/default system. > FreeDOS is installed on the 2nd hard drive, 1st partition. > Both operating systems boot and run ok if I swap drives in my BIOS, but > that’s a hassle. > > GAG actually boots to FreeDOS ok one time each time I install it. > Every time thereafter it boots to Windows 2000, instead of FreeDOS. > I suspect the TSR program GAG uses to swap hard drives gets confused by > Windows 2000. > > I did try installing FreeDOS to a partition on the 1st drive to > avoid the TSR swap program, but then I ended up with Windows NT > issues trying to boot to FreeDOS. I don’t have any NT issues with > GAG if FreeDOS is on my 2nd drive. > > I don’t see much hope of getting Grub4Dos or Windows 2000’s > boot.ini working with my configuration. Both methods keep getting tangled up > in Windows NT issues. > > Does anyone have any thoughts or advice on setting up a multi-boot > menu with my FreeDOS setup? At this point, I feel lucky that both > operating systems still boot and run ok by swapping drives in my BIOS! Hallo Herr FreeDOS., Mit freundlichen Grüßen / with kind regards Tom Ehlert +49-241-79886 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
On Sat, 14 Nov 2020 16:27:28 +0100, Marv wrote: > Does anyone have any thoughts or advice on setting up a multi-boot menu with > my FreeDOS setup? At > this point, I feel lucky that both operating systems still boot and run ok by > swapping drives in my BIOS! Installing Linux last has always worked for me. I'm sure there is some way to use only the boot loader (or whatever it is). /Tomas ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] Multi-Boot with Windows 2000 and FreeDOS
I spent the last 3 days fooling around with several ways to set my Windows 2000/FreeDOS machine set up with a multi-boot menu. I tried GAG, Grub4Dos, and the boot.ini file that Windows 2000 uses. Windows 2000 is installed on the 1st hard drive, 1st partition and is my primary/default system. FreeDOS is installed on the 2nd hard drive, 1st partition. Both operating systems boot and run ok if I swap drives in my BIOS, but that’s a hassle. GAG actually boots to FreeDOS ok one time each time I install it. Every time thereafter it boots to Windows 2000, instead of FreeDOS. I suspect the TSR program GAG uses to swap hard drives gets confused by Windows 2000. I did try installing FreeDOS to a partition on the 1st drive to avoid the TSR swap program, but then I ended up with Windows NT issues trying to boot to FreeDOS. I don’t have any NT issues with GAG if FreeDOS is on my 2nd drive. I don’t see much hope of getting Grub4Dos or Windows 2000’s boot.ini working with my configuration. Both methods keep getting tangled up in Windows NT issues. Does anyone have any thoughts or advice on setting up a multi-boot menu with my FreeDOS setup? At this point, I feel lucky that both operating systems still boot and run ok by swapping drives in my BIOS! -- It's all fun and games until someone divides by zero. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] DOS/16M (was: FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues)
Hi! I like TK Chia's idea that DOS/16M tried to access the keyboard controller to change A20: It would probably stop doing that when HIMEM and/or EMM386 are loaded, but having a DPMI loaded can be even more convincing. Same for DOS4GW: If A20 control is already provided by something else, or protected mode is already being used, it is less likely to try to change the A20 itself. For PC, the BIOS tends to trap I/O to the controller so even USB keyboards can behave like real ones, but your iMac / rEFInd / CSM probably do not do this. You can still try whether one of the CTMOUSE versions is able to use the mouse via PS/2 BIOS calls with some suitable command line options. May depend on the model. > VGA + VESA (graphics) works. It's discovered VESA 3.0 with LFB Quite nice :-) > Sound card related experiments are still in front of me Expect only a few modern media players like MPXPLAY to support AC97 or HDA at all. If you want soundblaster compatibility, you would have to use emulators. There seems to be a DOSBOX-X version which can run inside DOS which might help with that, but the normal way would be to use Windows or Linux with DOSEMU2 ;-) Regards, Eric PS: No idea whether your CSM is rEFInd provided, Apple provided or from somewhere else. If you would know, you could simply read docs instead of testing it's features. Maybe some strings at f000:0 to f000: give answers? ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] DOS/16M (was: FreeDOS 1.2 installed on iMac (2011) - success but there are issues)
This is a very interesting point regarding the keyboard. I have a standard USB keyboard (actually from Microsoft) that is connected to this iMac and standard HIC USB mouse that works with I think everything (including a few FPGA computers I run retro stuff on. With such a setup, the keyboard works at the system level. I can type commands, NC/NDN works and when I compile apps with Watcom standard keyboard related functions from stdio/stdlib work too (getch(), etc). But when I try to assess port 0x60 for keyboard events directly this mechanism does not trigger anything at all. Also mouse does not work, microsoft mouse.com and ctmouse both say I don't have a device connected to my computer. One of the prereq. exercises I wanted to check is to try some code I found on the internet to directly connect to my USB mouse interface and discover it without PS/2 emulation VGA + VESA (graphics) works. It's discovered VESA 3.0 with LFB, all the resolution that this Mac supports on Windows/Mac are enslisted via video mode enumerator. I had no time yet though to check how completely VESA 3.0 standard is implemented. Sound card related experiments are still in front of me but I cannot find anybody and anything over the internet that can tell me somebody successfully implemented HD Audio interface for DOS programs. -- Now back to the exception I'm getting. Interesting fact is that it's triggered when I launch dos4gw (1.97) apps. Launching the stub itself generates the exception as well. I assume that inside dos4gw there is some dos/16m code and error messaging that just shows up. Is it a bug in the dos4gw or it just does not know how to interpret this environment including BIOS services provided by rEFInd? Subject of further investigation. Definitively PMODE/W apps work, CWSDPMI and DOS32 work positively as well. DOS4GW 1.97 is the trigger. Interesting additional note though. I have tried to open Heretic in that setup, no sound of course but just to check if it will work (as I know doom engine was compiled using watcom and dos4gw). It uses DOS4GW 1.97 and it works... keyboard does not as it uses 0x60 port so hard reboot was required to come back to the OS ;-) That's what I know so far. My investigation continues. Thanks for the hint that it may be actually an incomplete BIOS emulation that rEFInd provides. CSM, I assume it should be part of rEFInd implementation, right? How can I check its capabilities to follow your suggestion regarding CSM? /h1 On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 12:10 AM Eric Auer wrote: > > Hi! > > > After quick reboot my steps to repro the problem are as following: > > -> FreeDOS boots up, I enter NDN, browse to OpenWatcom 1.9 BINW folder > and > > type 'wmake' > > > > [Result] > > App shows all the info it should for no targets specified, I assume on > exit > > it just crashes and hangs the whole system with a message: > > DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout > > DOS/16M error: [26] 8042 timeout > ... > > The 8042 is the keyboard controller. You are using the rEFInd boot > manager on iMac, without Bootcamp. I assume that means you had to > load some CSM, either provided by Apple or by rEFInd, to have BIOS > services for FreeDOS? Apparently it does not simulate a keyboard > controller, while DOS/16M, the DOS extender of your app, is trying > to access the keyboard without relying on BIOS services for that? > > DOS itself expects mostly BIOS services to exist, it does not use > much hardware directly. Exceptions could include the PC speaker for > FreeCOM command com beeping. DOS apps tend to rely on DOS, but in > particular for graphics, they may expect VGA hardware and not just > VGA BIOS services. For sound, barely any DOS app uses the BIOS and > BIOS sound services such as VBE/AI are not supported by classic DOS > sound cards predating them. > > So it is a very interesting question what works and what does not > work with your iMac setup. I would hope that at least some graphics, > disk, keyboard and mouse do work? Please tell me more about your > CSM or similar components and their DOS support. > > While it is not exactly DOS/16M, you could try DOS4GW alternative > DOS32A https://dos32a.narechk.net/index_en.html for improved > compatibility or pre-load DPMIONE or at least CWSDPMI to force > other DOS extenders to rely on the pre-loaded services instead. > > Regards, Eric > > >> *[1] How did I install FreeDOS on iMac* > >> That was relatively easy once I installed this boot manager: > >> https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ > >> With it I can install Linux, Windows and FreeDOS from a bootable CD or > USB > ... > > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
