Re: [Freedos-user] Reminder about the FreeDOS YouTube channel

[Eric Auer]

Hi Paul,

> Have you tried to run the installer under DOSEMU2?

With which type of drive configuration? I normally use
a Linux directory as C: drive, so you can neither format
nor partition that. Interestingly, WHICHFAT believes
such drives are FAT16, but CHKDSK and DOSFSCK will tell
you that they are not sector accessible at all. This is
due to some magic performed by DOSEMU2 to make the drive
bootable. Technically, it turns into something similar
to a network drive after booting. With classic DOSEMU,
you needed no extra drivers for this. With DOSEMU2, you
have to load an "EMUFS" driver to enable writes. If you
forget to load it, FreeDOS will not show error messages
about writes, but written data gets forgotten as soon
as you look away for a moment and never reaches Linux.

If you configure DOSEMU2 to use a disk image as your C:
drive, you can format it to any FAT type you like, with
some effort. Very useful for testing DOSFSCK and FORMAT.

The problem is that harddisk images are a bit special:
An 128 byte header with a magic and the geometry, then
an image of a partitioned disk with only one partition.

DOSEMU came with tools to create such images, but for
FAT32, you have to manually hex-edit the partition type
in the "MBR" of the image.

So whether you can run the installer in DOSEMU2 depends
on how you have configured it, but you probably want to
make sure to NOT let the installer partition or format
the disk. Just tell it to install the files to some
existing C: drive. And again, if the drive is actually
a Linux directory, you have to make sure to load EMUFS
to be able to properly write that. You could DEVLOAD it
before manually running the installer, I guess, because
adding it to the ISO of the installer would create the
risk of using a version mismatching the version which
comes with your DOSEMU2, which defaults to having some
extra drive containing specific drivers and tools such
as EMUFS (load SYS first, then run COM), UMB, EMS, CDROM,
SYSTEM, LREDIR, EXITEMU, EMUSOUND etc. For example by
running EMUSOUND /e your BLASTER etc. variable is set
based on your DOSEMU2 config, so you do not need to
manually keep your autoexec in sync with your config.

The UMB, EMS and CDROM drivers do what you can guess:
You cannot use EMM386 or UMBPCI in DOSEMU2 and because
no IDE/SATA controllers are simulated, only BIOS disks,
you cannot use CD/DVD drivers for hardware drives either.

> When it partition the Linux directory, it give some error (I don't remember).
> 
> And when it come to format the Linux directory, it loops 3 error messages 
> never stopping.
> 
> So yes, DOSEMU2 do have some special needs...

You can certainly say that last thing, but having a full
FreeDOS install of course gives you many nice apps in
DOSEMU2, just like a full install in any other context.

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Reminder about the FreeDOS YouTube channel

[Paul Dufresne via Freedos-user]

 Le mar., 15 juin 2021 07:36:06 -0400 Eric Auer  
écrit 

>Hi Jerome,
...
>How about Bochs? DOSEMU2? DOSBOX? Why would
>you assume that people with VM have different
>needs than people with plain hardware?
Have you tried to run the installer under DOSEMU2?

When it partition the Linux directory, it give some error (I don't remember).

And when it come to format the Linux directory, it loops 3 error messages never 
stopping.

So yes, DOSEMU2 do have some special needs...___
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Re: [Freedos-user] Misc FreeDOS Stuff [was: Reminder about the FreeDOS YouTube channel]

[Jerome Shidel]

Hi,

> On Jun 15, 2021, at 11:38 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
>> Basically, If a version for a specific platform doesn’t exist. The Default 
>> version is used.
>> 
>> Extensions are
>>  086-686: for CPU specific.
>>  DBX: for DOSBox
>>  VBX: for VirtualBox
>>  VMW: for VMware
>>  (a couple others not used a present)
> 
> Quite complex system! Maybe you could make a
> table about the differences between those.
> 
>> Partly to show they are for FreeDOS and FreeDOS is different from 
>> MS/PC/Open/etc-DOS.
>> 
>> Partly because installers love to break MY config files.
> 
> Difficult. Some people may prefer similarities
> instead of differences being made explicit.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying that backing up the old
> system includes boot files, config and the DOS
> directory. I guess you could even add a backup
> of the old boot sector to your backup zip :-)

It does. I forget where it goes though. I’m pretty sure it puts a copy in the 
DOSDIR. Forget if it puts one in the backup dir as well.

> After all, our SYS has a backup and a restore.
> 
>> The “Welcome” screen says “Welcome to the advanced installer”
> 
> Yes, but I was referring to the title text.
> 
>>> Which brings me to the next question, why
>>> not put that choice in the interactive
>>> installer menu? As far as I understood
>>> the video, people have to abort install
>>> to get to a prompt, then manually start
>>> advanced install, that is less intuitive.
>> 
>> Not up to me.
> 
> Then I hope somebody else would support my
> suggestion that the advanced installer mode
> can be reached from the initial "how do you
> want to install? full or base, with or without
> sources?" menu as a fifth option to make it
> easier to find :-) Having to first abort the
> installer to find the advanced mode is evil.
> 
>> At present, I’m not aware of any tool that
>> does a test for “Is Drive ? Empty”.
> 
> You mean as in "are there no partitions yet”?

No. 

I mean there is a partition. There is a Drive C:. Drive C: is formatted. Drive 
C: contains no files.

> That should be feasible to do with the help
> of FDISK /INFO and a writeable temp directory
> to let you "grep" for the word "FAT" and for
> the "%" character. If % is found, then there
> are some partitions. If "FAT" is found, they
> even include FAT ones. So you get four cases:
> 
> - no partitions are existing at all yet
> 
> - partitions exist, but none are FAT
> 
> - FAT partition exists, but not formatted
> 
> - a working FAT partition exists

Installer does  all that already. And manages to do it without the guarantee of 
a writable temporary file system. Prior to RC4, the boot media was unable to 
generate a RAM drive under QEMU. With RC4, it is able to do that now. 

> 
> To distinguish the last 2 cases, simply use
> my tiny WHICHFAT utility :-)
> 
> Note that FDISK returns a non-zero errorlevel
> if you try to "FDISK /INFO 1" while no BIOS
> drive 0x80 exists at all. In that case, it
> would of course be futile to install to the
> drive which does not even exist ;-)
> 
> As mentioned before, I think you should NOT
> assume that VM users by definition want to
> overwrite all data, or that hardware users
> by definition do not. Better check whether
> there already is something on the disk, no
> matter whether it is a real or virtual one.
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] Misc FreeDOS Stuff [was: Reminder about the FreeDOS YouTube channel]

[Eric Auer]

Hi!

> Basically, If a version for a specific platform doesn’t exist. The Default 
> version is used.
> 
> Extensions are
>   086-686: for CPU specific.
>   DBX: for DOSBox
>   VBX: for VirtualBox
>   VMW: for VMware
>   (a couple others not used a present)

Quite complex system! Maybe you could make a
table about the differences between those.

> Partly to show they are for FreeDOS and FreeDOS is different from 
> MS/PC/Open/etc-DOS.
> 
> Partly because installers love to break MY config files.

Difficult. Some people may prefer similarities
instead of differences being made explicit.

Thanks for clarifying that backing up the old
system includes boot files, config and the DOS
directory. I guess you could even add a backup
of the old boot sector to your backup zip :-)
After all, our SYS has a backup and a restore.

> The “Welcome” screen says “Welcome to the advanced installer”

Yes, but I was referring to the title text.

>> Which brings me to the next question, why
>> not put that choice in the interactive
>> installer menu? As far as I understood
>> the video, people have to abort install
>> to get to a prompt, then manually start
>> advanced install, that is less intuitive.
> 
> Not up to me.

Then I hope somebody else would support my
suggestion that the advanced installer mode
can be reached from the initial "how do you
want to install? full or base, with or without
sources?" menu as a fifth option to make it
easier to find :-) Having to first abort the
installer to find the advanced mode is evil.

> At present, I’m not aware of any tool that
> does a test for “Is Drive ? Empty”.

You mean as in "are there no partitions yet"?
That should be feasible to do with the help
of FDISK /INFO and a writeable temp directory
to let you "grep" for the word "FAT" and for
the "%" character. If % is found, then there
are some partitions. If "FAT" is found, they
even include FAT ones. So you get four cases:

- no partitions are existing at all yet

- partitions exist, but none are FAT

- FAT partition exists, but not formatted

- a working FAT partition exists

To distinguish the last 2 cases, simply use
my tiny WHICHFAT utility :-)

Note that FDISK returns a non-zero errorlevel
if you try to "FDISK /INFO 1" while no BIOS
drive 0x80 exists at all. In that case, it
would of course be futile to install to the
drive which does not even exist ;-)

As mentioned before, I think you should NOT
assume that VM users by definition want to
overwrite all data, or that hardware users
by definition do not. Better check whether
there already is something on the disk, no
matter whether it is a real or virtual one.

Regards, Eric



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[Freedos-user] FDISK bugs, was: Freedos Install Problem

[Eric Auer]

Hi Andrew,

> I bought a CF card and adapter, so waiting for those to arrive. I tried the
> fdisk /bmbr command on both the installed fdisk and the live cd, both of
> them give the syntax error… operation terminated. The other fdisk mbr
> options work though. When the CF adapter arrives I should be able to get
> the files off the computer and send them. I havnt found a command which
> copys to cd, probably need to find an application for that eventually, if
> my cd drive can write. Not sure if it can.

I have limited bad news for you:

There is indeed a bug in main.c of FDISK which makes it fail
to detect any /BMBR command line option. The userint1.c code
to write the booteasy MBR looks okay, but the help screen is
indeed making a promise which main.c does not make true yet.

Interactive_User_Interface() actually lacks a menu item "MBR"
to enter the already existing, but unreachable sub-menu for
MBR related tasks, choices 0x60 and 0x61 to 0x64, code is in
Standard_Menu() for the "MBR" sub-menu already.

A file about known bugs says that BootEasy "does not work"
properly, so maybe it would be easier to just remove all
traces of that feature from code, help screen and docs??

The current main.c contains for example:

> case 'M':
>   {
>   if(0==strcmp(arg[0].choice,"MBR"))
> {
> Create_MBR();
> command_ok=TRUE;
> 
> Shift_Command_Line_Options(1);
> }
> 
...

There is no code for case 'B' yet (but for A and B, cases
are sorted alphabetically).

Code which checks for the option "BMBR" would then call

Create_BootEasy_MBR();

According to the makefile, FDISK 1.3.4 is supposed to come with
THREE assembly language source files: For booteasy, bootnorm
and smartmbr. The latter is a more recent third addition :-)

Interestingly, both "boot*.asm" files are each included
TWICE in the current FDISK download, fdisk.zip linked by:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.3/pkg-html/fdisk.html

Given that BootEasy might be broken anyway, I suggest
that you use the /SMARTMBR and /MBR options instead of
the /BMBR and /MBR options for now. "Smart MBR" is also
called DriveSmart, a MBR written by Tom Ehlert. This
MBR automatically uses LBA when available and fetches
CHS drive geometry info from the BIOS otherwise.

Maybe FDISK could be updated to address the listed issues.

I hope /SMARTMBR is a good alternative, Andrew :-)

Regards, Eric

PS: The act of just STARTING FDISK in interactive mode immediately
triggers Create_MBR_If_Not_Present() which invokes Create_MBR()
when no 55 AA magic is present in the MBR. There is NO question
whether the user wants this and NO message about this happening
in spite of potentially breaking any existing data inside the
MBR based on the very limited test for only two magic bytes :-(

Please make this more explicit, interactive and based on a more
reliable test, for example whether the first few bytes ALSO are
a repetition of a constant value (e.g. 00, ff or f6). Thanks!



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Re: [Freedos-user] Catching up on FreeDOS articles at OpenSource.com

[Bryan Kilgallin]

Dear Jim:


June 3 - FreeDOS for Linux users


František (Frank) and I have been working on getting FreeDOS and Ubuntu 
to cooperate. So we have examined the workings of Samba and CUPS.

--
members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/


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Re: [Freedos-user] Catching up on FreeDOS articles at OpenSource.com

[Jim Hall]

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 5:34 PM Jim Hall  wrote:
> For anyone who's curious about the full article list, here is the
> article list I sent to the editors, including the dates they should
> run. I believe the editors are using this schedule, but some of the
> titles are (and will be) different from what's listed here:
>
> Week 1
>
> June 1 - FreeDOS 1.3 Release Candidate 4
> June 2 - How to navigate with CD and DIR
> June 3 - FreeDOS for Linux users
> June 4 - How to set and use environment variables
>
> Week 2
>
> June 5 - How to automate tasks with BAT files
[..]

Oops, typo in that email. Monday in week 2 (June) was June 7.

The articles run Monday through Friday every week in June.

But no one commented on the typo, so I think everyone figured it out,
anyway. :-)


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Re: [Freedos-user] Misc FreeDOS Stuff [was: Reminder about the FreeDOS YouTube channel]

[Jerome Shidel]

Hi,

> On Jun 15, 2021, at 7:36 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jerome,
> 
> thanks for reading the flood of mails :-)

:-)

> [..]

>> Its not really the bad
> 
> As it is difficult for me to predict which config
> file contents will be used on which hardware, it
> could be useful to start a thread where you post
> a typical, say "real Pentium 1 or VM" style config
> as copy-paste content so I can do finger-pointing
> at actually used lines that seem problematic ;-)
> 
> Of course you can also wait with that until you
> have integrated the updates you were going to
> add anyway :-)

It’s not really that bad.

Basically, If a version for a specific platform doesn’t exist. The Default 
version is used.

Extensions are
086-686: for CPU specific.
DBX: for DOSBox
VBX: for VirtualBox
VMW: for VMware
(a couple others not used a present)

So, when installed on a 386 the installer looks for AUTOEXEC.386 and 
CONFIG.386. If they don’t exist, it uses AUTOEXEC.DEF and/or CONFIG.DEF. 

If the installer detects a 486, it looks for 486 variants. But, it will 
not use the 386 or lesser ones. It is a simple either — or situation. If not 
486 version, DEF is used.

> [..]
>> First, the installer does not automatically format or
>> partition the HD if a existing writable drive C: is found.
> 
> So it automatically switches to "just copy files"
> mode in that case? I was not aware of that based
> on what I saw in the video.

There is more to it than that of course. A way, way, way over-simplification…

welcome to installer

Is there a writable drive C:? If so skip to config temp space.

Is there a Drive, but it has no DOS partitions?
Is there a Drive C:, but is not writeable and needs formatted?

config some temp space for I/O redirection (if needed)
find install media packages

ask install questions to configure installer.

begin install
Maybe backup DOSDIR, system and config files to dir or a zip archive
Remove conflicting packages (since may be outside of DOSDIR and will 
cause FDINST to fail on file conflicts)
Maybe remove entire DOSDIR dir
Install new packages
Maybe Setup Boot sector
Maybe Install system Files
Maybe Install config files

Maybe someday, I’ll do a flow chart of the installer logic. 


> 
>> Things outside the %DOSDIR% (usually C:\FDOS) should
>> be fine. 
> 
> Great :-) Also, I have now watched the "advanced
> installer" video from Jim. That one has almost
> exactly the amount of choices I like to have in
> installers, thanks :-) But see my comment above,
> if the non-advanced installer will automatically
> switch to overwriting only C:\FDOS without any
> partitioning or formatting, that also already
> covers most wishes.
> 
> Maybe the installer could check whether there is
> a FreeDOS directory instead of or next to a FDOS
> directory, maybe check which of them are mentioned
> in config, fdconfig, autoexec or fdauto as a tie
> breaker and then assist the user in selecting where
> to put and/or overwrite a previous FreeDOS directory.
> 
> But that is of course just a bonus, not required.
> 
> By the way, I GUESS that you default to using
> fdconfig and fdauto files instead of config and
> autoexec files to reduce overlap with other OS
> in a dual boot situation or when people might go
> back to their other DOS later? In that case, you
> should probably install command.com in the FDOS
> directory, not in the root directory, to further
> reduce the overlap?

There are a couple reasons it uses FDAUTO and FDCONFIG.

Partly for the reason you mention.

Partly to show they are for FreeDOS and FreeDOS is different from 
MS/PC/Open/etc-DOS.

Partly because installers love to break MY config files. This allows them to do 
whatever they want to AUTOEXEC and CONFIG. Then I can add the changes myself if 
needed.

Partly because they sort closer together in dir lists.

Probably some other partlies as well. :-)

> 
> Otherwise, I would recommend to use the classic
> config and autoexec names. People are used to
> them and some app installers actually edit the
> config files so it is good if they can be found
> automatically.
> 
> I think if you find pre-existing files of either
> or both names, you could ask the user what the
> installer should do: Keep, rename, overwrite etc.

If the installer detects old config files, it offers to back up the previous OS.

> As far as I understood Jim's video, you already
> have a similar question in the installer, but it
> was not clear for me whether that is about the
> boot files, config files, FDOS directory or all.
> In particular, does ZIP-ing (or renaming?) the
> previous files include the FDOS directory? Or is
> it only about boot and config files?

Basically, all of that. 
When doing the zip archive (only offered in advanced mode), it does the normal  

Re: [Freedos-user] Reminder about the FreeDOS YouTube channel

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jerome,

thanks for reading the flood of mails :-)

> The warm boot is an alias in the FDAUTO. Basically, it is a line
> inherited from FreeDOS 1.1 that I’ve never bothered to change.

I think coldboot would be more reliable.

> What config bugs???
> 
> I am aware of no bugs in the current config files. 
> 
> I have be asked to make some changes to some things to possibly increase 
> compatibility
> or boost performance for some installs. Things like “please load a CD cache” 
> because
> it is slow on my hardware.

Yes. No show-stoppers, but things like "the
first and recommended boot option uses daring
emm386 options and may crash for some people",
or inconsistencies between descriptions and
implementations of the different boot options.

Also please load UHDD before UDVD2 so it can
provide a cache for both harddisk and CD. If
your driver detection choses ELTORITO, also
add CDRCACHE as separate CD cache.

I personally would also appreciate loading
MORESYS, but that is of course a bit unusual.

>> See my 2021-05-03 mail on freedos-devel,
>> "Distro autoexec/config wishes for 1.3rc4" ...

> Its not really the bad

As it is difficult for me to predict which config
file contents will be used on which hardware, it
could be useful to start a thread where you post
a typical, say "real Pentium 1 or VM" style config
as copy-paste content so I can do finger-pointing
at actually used lines that seem problematic ;-)

Of course you can also wait with that until you
have integrated the updates you were going to
add anyway :-)

> For example, without pipes, you can’t do
> 
> grep -i “FDAPM” *.BAT | grep -iv “COLDBOOT”

That comment was mostly about Jim's video, which
is why I had sent it only to Jim at first. Of course
one should really have a writeable temp directory,
because pipes are useful, but when people happen
to be in a situation without one, it is good if
the video also talks about how to avoid pipes.

> First, the installer does not automatically format or
> partition the HD if a existing writable drive C: is found.

So it automatically switches to "just copy files"
mode in that case? I was not aware of that based
on what I saw in the video.

> Things outside the %DOSDIR% (usually C:\FDOS) should
> be fine. 

Great :-) Also, I have now watched the "advanced
installer" video from Jim. That one has almost
exactly the amount of choices I like to have in
installers, thanks :-) But see my comment above,
if the non-advanced installer will automatically
switch to overwriting only C:\FDOS without any
partitioning or formatting, that also already
covers most wishes.

Maybe the installer could check whether there is
a FreeDOS directory instead of or next to a FDOS
directory, maybe check which of them are mentioned
in config, fdconfig, autoexec or fdauto as a tie
breaker and then assist the user in selecting where
to put and/or overwrite a previous FreeDOS directory.

But that is of course just a bonus, not required.

By the way, I GUESS that you default to using
fdconfig and fdauto files instead of config and
autoexec files to reduce overlap with other OS
in a dual boot situation or when people might go
back to their other DOS later? In that case, you
should probably install command.com in the FDOS
directory, not in the root directory, to further
reduce the overlap?

Otherwise, I would recommend to use the classic
config and autoexec names. People are used to
them and some app installers actually edit the
config files so it is good if they can be found
automatically.

I think if you find pre-existing files of either
or both names, you could ask the user what the
installer should do: Keep, rename, overwrite etc.

As far as I understood Jim's video, you already
have a similar question in the installer, but it
was not clear for me whether that is about the
boot files, config files, FDOS directory or all.
In particular, does ZIP-ing (or renaming?) the
previous files include the FDOS directory? Or is
it only about boot and config files?

About the "red alert" theme: Just mention
the word "advanced" somewhere on screen.
People may not stay aware that "red" is
a reference to that difference, even if
they had to manually start "SETUP ADV".

Which brings me to the next question, why
not put that choice in the interactive
installer menu? As far as I understood
the video, people have to abort install
to get to a prompt, then manually start
advanced install, that is less intuitive.

> I’ve been revisiting my thoughts on this lately... 
> 
> There are many users who want to always see
> every option when installing FreeDOS.
> 
> However, the overwhelming majority of users are
> running FreeDOS in some sort of VM and...

Depends. If they simply see the options of
base and full automated install and advanced
install with more choices, everybody can be
happy :-)

> There is a third option to consider
> 
> Detection of a QEMU, VirtualBox and VMWare

How about Bochs? DOSEMU2? DOSBOX? Why would
you assume that people with VM have 

Re: [Freedos-user] Freedos Install Problem

[Andrew]

Hello,
I bought a CF card and adapter, so waiting for those to arrive. I tried the
fdisk /bmbr command on both the installed fdisk and the live cd, both of
them give the syntax error… operation terminated. The other fdisk mbr
options work though. When the CF adapter arrives I should be able to get
the files off the computer and send them. I havnt found a command which
copys to cd, probably need to find an application for that eventually, if
my cd drive can write. Not sure if it can.

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 7:40 PM Eric Auer  wrote:

>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> > So I did the experiment, simply by using fdisk /mbr in the live cd of
> > freedos. The OS now is not bootable from hdd, and gives read error while
> > reading drive error. So definitely problem is fdisk /mbr command.
>
> Can you send me the MBR in working "Win98" state (from your backup
> made with FDISK /SMBR) and the MBR in broken state (i.e. copy the
> boot.mbr backup to a new name, then run FDISK /SMBR again to write
> the broken MBR to boot.mbr again) so I can compare both? Also, does
> the same problem happen with FDISK /BMBR instead of FDISK /MBR ? In
> both cases, you can use FDISK /AMBR to put the previously backed up
> boot.mbr file back on the MBR, of course after copying the right
> instance of boot.mbr into the working directory of FDISK again.
>
> Thanks!
>
> > gotek sees iso images of formatted floppy drives
>
> There is a problem with choice of wording here. By ISO images
> are files containing ISO9660 filesystems used only on CD/DVD,
> so your floppy disk images cannot be ISO images.
>
> I assume you use the device because your 486 can only boot
> from floppy, not from CD or USB, but I guess you could just
> use IDE devices for booting instead? For example, there are
> simple CF to IDE adapters and you can use a cardreader to
> edit the contents of some CF which you can later use as a
> "harddisk" for the 486 with that kind of adapter. Would be
> less technologically advanced than the floppy simulation.
>
> Regards, Eric
>
> --
Thank you very much,

Andrew Ingram
Fainman Group
Graduate Student, UCSD

Phone: (831)-320-3531
aj1ing...@gmail.com
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