Re: [Freedos-user] Announcement: lDebug release 5

[jerome]

Hi, 

> On Mar 8, 2023, at 1:33 PM, C. Masloch  wrote:
> [..]

I added the new release to my repo [1], and the official package update repo 
[2][3] on ibiblio. 

> [7]: 
> https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/dos/debug/ldebug/rel4/
>  
> 
I don’t generally do any file management in the mirrors section in ibiblio. 
But, I went ahead and replaced the REL4 version as you requested. 

> [8]: 
> https://gitlab.com/FreeDOS/devel/ldebug/-/commits/master/SOURCE/LDEBUG/case-specific
>  
> 

I also updated the package on the GitLab FreeDOS Archive. So, it will be 
automatically included in the next Interim Build T2304. When creating an 
interim OS build or actual version release, the packages are pulled from the 
projects on GitLab. If you desire the ability to push commits directly to the 
version on Gitlab[4], no problem granting access. 

:-)

Jerome

[1] - https://fd.lod.bz/repos/current/pkg-html/ldebug.html 

[2] - 
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.3/pkg-html/ldebug.html
 

[3] - 
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/latest/pkg-html/ldebug.html
 

[4] - https://gitlab.com/FreeDOS/devel/ldebug 


> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Can you recommend a good single-board-computer for legacy OSs?

[Travis Siegel]

Thanks man, extremely helpful.  Probably exactly what I've been looking 
for, for years.  I knew it was out there, (I'd seen reference to such 
boards in industrial processes posts), but couldn't find them anywhere.  
With this, I might be able to actually build a couple of the projects I 
wanted to do for years now.  Thanks for that.


Very happy.


On 3/8/2023 4:47 AM, Frantisek Rysanek wrote:

On 7 Mar 2023 at 23:06, Ben Hutchinson wrote:

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 5:14 PM Volkert via Freedos-user
 wrote:

You might look for products based on a Vortex86 SoC. Those have
a legacy BIOS and can boot MS-DOS and older Windows versions
and such.
[ + a link to the Vogons forum, which has links to ICOP]

I'm looking for one that's mass produced, just like Arduinos and
Raspberry Pis are mass produced hobbyist computer boards.  The only
problem with those is they don't support intel CPU instructions.


I'd like to second the advice given by PM Volkert:
you should definitely take a look at the Vortex86 family, namely on
motherboards made by ICOP, or miniature PC boxes by some other
sibling company in the family around DMP and ICOP.

Note that Vortex86, especially in the DX2 generation, is pretty close
to machines of the 486 / Pentium era. It's got a proper, full-blown
ISA bus straight from the SoC, and also 32bit / 33MHz PCI.
The DX-based boards by ICOP come with an XGI Z9s graphics chip that
has something like 32 MB of dedicated Video DRAM and is accompanied
by a pretty good VESA BIOS, where good = decent compatibility with
DOS-era software. It can run Windows up to XP, although for XP the
onboard 512 MB of RAM is already hardly sufficient. Graphics drivers
are available for the Windows 9x and NT.

With the Vortex86DX, you get an AMI BIOS with APM support (no ACPI),
with AT-style power supply control.
The more modern Vortex variants (up to DX3, at the time of this
writing) are faster, maybe up to on par with the early 45nm ATOM's,
they have more RAM onboard, their BIOS adds ACPI support, but these
newer Vortex platforms start to depart slightly from the hardcore
"oldtimer DOS experience".

Vortex86 by DMP / ICOP is the last remaining supporter of the DOS
era. You won't buy any other new hardware with a comparable set of
old-skool features.

Speaking of "mass-produced"... I'm not sure to what extent you are
aware of the functioning of the market of PC computers.
I myself work in the "industrial PC" business, so I'm aware of this
niche that may slip under the radar of a typical home/office PC user.

The mainstream mass-produced gaming/home/office PC's have a pretty
short product life cycle and are subject to the latest marketing
trends and fads. A particular motherboard model is available for
maybe a year. Say 6 months to 2 years. You get a truckload (cargo
ship load) of a particular motherboard model produced for stock, that
stock gets depleted in a few months and will never come back. By the
time that batch gets depleted, a newer model is already being
mass-produced. Etc.

The industrial PC HW market is different. The customers demand
product lifecycles that last many years, preferably forever. The
quantities sold are minuscule, compared to the mass market. Maybe 10%
of the mainstream market, if you summarize across a CPU generation.
The production batches are typically much smaller, compared to the
mass market - but, the production runs do repeat, as long as demand
lasts, and as long as chips are available.

The chip-level lifecycle is longer. The stumbling block is the CPU
and chipset - nowadays often merged together conveniently in an SoC.
For the embedded/IPC market, the champion in product lifecycle and
volume sold remains Intel (not AMD). In the product pages at
ark.intel.com, mind a note here and there saying "embedded SKU
options available". The word "embedded" here correlates to the
specific IPC market niche, and an extended availability, often for a
decade or almost.

Note that this IPC/embdedded motherboard market does not run along
with the evolutionary bleeding edge: instead, it seems to pick up
mature CPU generations as they're phased out from mainstream
availability. Courtesy of that conservative approach, in the
industrial x86 market you get stable silicon (already after several
iterations of early bugfixing revisions), stable motherboard PCB
designs (industrial ATX motherboards can actually be fine-tuned
siblings of previous generation mainstream models), stable BIOS and
bugfixed drivers.

If I return to the arrangements of "manufacturing and
order-processing logistics" : there are differences between
industrial PC vendors.

Generally only the biggest vendors try to keep stocks in regional
warehouses - say Advantech is a prime example here. Advantech
themselves appear to work with non-trivial production batches  - as a
result of which, often the particular model that you're after is not
in stock at the very moment when you'd need it, and you have to wait
for a few weeks for the next production run + 

[Freedos-user] Announcement: lDebug release 5

[C. Masloch]

Hello list,

I decided to push out a new release today of my debugger, lDebug (it 
starts with a small L). Besides many bug fixes, the past year brought 
some new features, such as some support for a 40-column mode (developed 
for my HP 95LX handheld computer), the ability to load the debugger as a 
device driver in [FD]CONFIG.SYS (with some support for unloading later), 
and expression types that include the POINTER type (reads a 32-bit 
number expression for an address parameter interpreted as a 16:16 
segmented far pointer).


There are also some new build options such as the conditionally 
debuggable build, the dual code sections, the symbolic build (formerly a 
branch in the repo), and the immediate assembler.


More details are available on my blog [1]. Even more details on the 
changes are listed in the manual's News section [2]. To get the most 
verbose list of changes you can use the hg source repository, which can 
be browsed on the web [3] or downloaded using the Mercurial DSCM.


The release packages are available from our server [4] as usual. The 
manual contains a new section called "Quick start for reading this 
manual" [5] which I recommend for getting to know the debugger.



Note for FreeDOS packagers: The proper FreeDOS package is found in the 
fdpkg subdirectory [6], filename LDEBUG5.ZIP. As an aside, the rel4 
subdirectory on ibiblio.org [7] contains a strange zip file that doesn't 
exactly match any of my releases, though it seems similar to 
/ecm/download/ldebug/ldebug4.zip (but with some changes such as the 
omission of the instsect.com application). I recommend replacing this by 
the LDEBUG4.ZIP file in the fdpkg subdirectory on our server, as well.


Additionally, note that I added an empty file named "case-specific" in 
the SOURCE/LDEBUG/ directory of the FreeDOS package, which was 
previously added by the gitlab FreeDOS project [8] to make it so that 
the sources would be compressed with LFNs enabled. Background: All 
filenames in the packages I prepare are 8.3 SFN compliant, but I expect 
the filenames to retain their capitalisation so that when unpacking on a 
case-sensitive system the build can still succeed.


Regards,
ecm


[1]: 
https://pushbx.org/ecm/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=blog:pushbx:2023:0308_ldebug_release_5

[2]: https://pushbx.org/ecm/doc/ldebug.htm#news-r5
[3]: https://hg.pushbx.org/ecm/ldebug/log/release5
[4]: https://pushbx.org/ecm/download/ldebug/
[5]: https://pushbx.org/ecm/doc/ldebug.htm#quickstart
[6]: https://pushbx.org/ecm/download/ldebug/fdpkg/
[7]: 
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/dos/debug/ldebug/rel4/
[8]: 
https://gitlab.com/FreeDOS/devel/ldebug/-/commits/master/SOURCE/LDEBUG/case-specific



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Can you recommend a good single-board-computer for legacy OSs?

[Louis Santillan]

Have a look at parkytowers and consider a thin client of pre-Windows 7
or Windows XP vintage.  They're usually cheap and plentiful on ebay
and the like.

https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/hware/hardware.shtml

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:19 AM Frantisek Rysanek
 wrote:
>
> ...oops, I have a small typo correction:
>
> > Note that Vortex86, especially in the DX2 generation, is pretty close
> > to machines of the 486 / Pentium era.
> >
> actually I meant the Vortex86DX, not the DX2.
> (The DX2 is actually moving away slightly from the old-skool bare
> metal.)
>
> Frank
>
> > It's got a proper, full-blown
> > ISA bus straight from the SoC, and also 32bit / 33MHz PCI.
> > The DX-based boards by ICOP come with an XGI Z9s graphics chip that
> > has something like 32 MB of dedicated Video DRAM and is accompanied
> > by a pretty good VESA BIOS, where good = decent compatibility with
> > DOS-era software. It can run Windows up to XP, although for XP the
> > onboard 512 MB of RAM is already hardly sufficient. Graphics drivers
> > are available for the Windows 9x and NT.
> ...
>
>
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user


___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Can you recommend a good single-board-computer for legacy OSs?

[Frantisek Rysanek]

...oops, I have a small typo correction:

> Note that Vortex86, especially in the DX2 generation, is pretty close 
> to machines of the 486 / Pentium era. 
>
actually I meant the Vortex86DX, not the DX2.
(The DX2 is actually moving away slightly from the old-skool bare 
metal.)

Frank

> It's got a proper, full-blown 
> ISA bus straight from the SoC, and also 32bit / 33MHz PCI.
> The DX-based boards by ICOP come with an XGI Z9s graphics chip that 
> has something like 32 MB of dedicated Video DRAM and is accompanied 
> by a pretty good VESA BIOS, where good = decent compatibility with 
> DOS-era software. It can run Windows up to XP, although for XP the 
> onboard 512 MB of RAM is already hardly sufficient. Graphics drivers 
> are available for the Windows 9x and NT.
...


___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Can you recommend a good single-board-computer for legacy OSs?

[Frantisek Rysanek]

On 8 Mar 2023 at 2:15, Ben Hutchinson wrote:
> 
> My current laptop computer is a Dell Inspiron 7559. It has this cool 
> feature where it lets you go into the firmware settings at bootup 
> with F2. Then you can disable "Secure Boot" after which you can then 
> enable "Legacy BIOS". This lets me boot my computer via USB stick 
> with a copy of DOS (whether MS-DOS or FreeDOS). This is a nice 
> feature, and while the computer is like almost 10 years old, I hope 
> most modern computers (especially the SBCs that I'm looking for) 
> still have a dual-firmware system like that, where you can use either 
> UEFI (for modern OS's) or BIOS (for legacy OS's).
> 
Yes, 10 years ago sounds about right - at that time, UEFI was new, 
and the modern OS'es with UEFI support didn't have enough of a 
foothold to allow "wintel" to force UEFI upon you = prevent you from 
using older operating systems.

Today, mainstream machines no longer support legacy BIOS interfaces. 
They haven't for a few years.

You have a better chance with industrial PC's (and embedded 
motherboards) - the IPC vendors have kept the legacy BIOS 
compatibility module (the CSM) in the UEFI much longer, exactly 
because this market segment is conservative.

But even in the "industrial" market segment, the times they are a 
changin'. The "firmware modules" (binary blobs) that come from Intel 
to BIOS/UEFI vendors (AMI/Phoenix) are apparently increasingly 
hostile / preventative to including a CSM in the UEFI image.
So the motherboard vendors perhaps no longer have a choice.

I don't have stats / keep track, but starting from say Kaby Lake and 
Gemini Lake, the CSM is a rare occurrence.

Speaking of small-format x86 SBC's, if I should keep promoting ICOP, 
take a look at this proprietary form factor:
https://www.icop.com.tw/product_list/44
That's 100x66 mm.
This is ICOP's smallest that allows you to plug a few break-out 
cables / pigtails (included in the box) and start working. 
There are smaller SoM's that need a custom carrier board (PCB).

Frank


___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Can you recommend a good single-board-computer for legacy OSs?

[Chas Hopkins]

Frank, thank you for that fantastic summary.

Regards

Chas

On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 at 10:03, Frantisek Rysanek
 wrote:
>
> On 7 Mar 2023 at 23:06, Ben Hutchinson wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 5:14 PM Volkert via Freedos-user
> >  wrote:
> > > You might look for products based on a Vortex86 SoC. Those have

<>


___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Can you recommend a good single-board-computer for legacy OSs?

[Frantisek Rysanek]

On 7 Mar 2023 at 23:06, Ben Hutchinson wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 5:14 PM Volkert via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> > You might look for products based on a Vortex86 SoC. Those have 
> > a legacy BIOS and can boot MS-DOS and older Windows versions
> > and such.  
> > [ + a link to the Vogons forum, which has links to ICOP]
> 
> I'm looking for one that's mass produced, just like Arduinos and 
> Raspberry Pis are mass produced hobbyist computer boards.  The only 
> problem with those is they don't support intel CPU instructions.
> 
I'd like to second the advice given by PM Volkert:
you should definitely take a look at the Vortex86 family, namely on 
motherboards made by ICOP, or miniature PC boxes by some other 
sibling company in the family around DMP and ICOP.

Note that Vortex86, especially in the DX2 generation, is pretty close 
to machines of the 486 / Pentium era. It's got a proper, full-blown 
ISA bus straight from the SoC, and also 32bit / 33MHz PCI.
The DX-based boards by ICOP come with an XGI Z9s graphics chip that 
has something like 32 MB of dedicated Video DRAM and is accompanied 
by a pretty good VESA BIOS, where good = decent compatibility with 
DOS-era software. It can run Windows up to XP, although for XP the 
onboard 512 MB of RAM is already hardly sufficient. Graphics drivers 
are available for the Windows 9x and NT.

With the Vortex86DX, you get an AMI BIOS with APM support (no ACPI), 
with AT-style power supply control.
The more modern Vortex variants (up to DX3, at the time of this 
writing) are faster, maybe up to on par with the early 45nm ATOM's, 
they have more RAM onboard, their BIOS adds ACPI support, but these 
newer Vortex platforms start to depart slightly from the hardcore 
"oldtimer DOS experience".

Vortex86 by DMP / ICOP is the last remaining supporter of the DOS 
era. You won't buy any other new hardware with a comparable set of 
old-skool features.

Speaking of "mass-produced"... I'm not sure to what extent you are 
aware of the functioning of the market of PC computers.
I myself work in the "industrial PC" business, so I'm aware of this 
niche that may slip under the radar of a typical home/office PC user.

The mainstream mass-produced gaming/home/office PC's have a pretty 
short product life cycle and are subject to the latest marketing 
trends and fads. A particular motherboard model is available for 
maybe a year. Say 6 months to 2 years. You get a truckload (cargo 
ship load) of a particular motherboard model produced for stock, that 
stock gets depleted in a few months and will never come back. By the 
time that batch gets depleted, a newer model is already being 
mass-produced. Etc.

The industrial PC HW market is different. The customers demand 
product lifecycles that last many years, preferably forever. The 
quantities sold are minuscule, compared to the mass market. Maybe 10% 
of the mainstream market, if you summarize across a CPU generation. 
The production batches are typically much smaller, compared to the 
mass market - but, the production runs do repeat, as long as demand 
lasts, and as long as chips are available. 

The chip-level lifecycle is longer. The stumbling block is the CPU 
and chipset - nowadays often merged together conveniently in an SoC. 
For the embedded/IPC market, the champion in product lifecycle and 
volume sold remains Intel (not AMD). In the product pages at 
ark.intel.com, mind a note here and there saying "embedded SKU 
options available". The word "embedded" here correlates to the 
specific IPC market niche, and an extended availability, often for a 
decade or almost.

Note that this IPC/embdedded motherboard market does not run along 
with the evolutionary bleeding edge: instead, it seems to pick up 
mature CPU generations as they're phased out from mainstream 
availability. Courtesy of that conservative approach, in the 
industrial x86 market you get stable silicon (already after several 
iterations of early bugfixing revisions), stable motherboard PCB 
designs (industrial ATX motherboards can actually be fine-tuned 
siblings of previous generation mainstream models), stable BIOS and 
bugfixed drivers.

If I return to the arrangements of "manufacturing and 
order-processing logistics" : there are differences between 
industrial PC vendors.

Generally only the biggest vendors try to keep stocks in regional 
warehouses - say Advantech is a prime example here. Advantech 
themselves appear to work with non-trivial production batches  - as a 
result of which, often the particular model that you're after is not 
in stock at the very moment when you'd need it, and you have to wait 
for a few weeks for the next production run + logistics. Returning 
customers tend to calculate with these lead times. Also, chances are 
that the boards are actually in stock in a warehouse near the 
production line, and in the EU or U.S. you can pay extra to have your 
motherboard delivered directly, thus saving maybe 2-3 weeks off the 
low-cost 

Re: [Freedos-user] Can you recommend a good single-board-computer for legacy OSs?

[tom ehlert]

> I'm looking for one that's mass produced, just like Arduinos and
> Raspberry Pis are mass produced hobbyist computer boards.  The only
> problem with those is they don't support intel CPU instructions.

ROFL

Tom



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user