Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[tom ehlert via Freedos-user]

Hallo Herr tsiegel--- via Freedos-user,

am Donnerstag, 8. Februar 2024 um 23:41 schrieben Sie:


> On 2/8/2024 3:34 PM, tom ehlert via Freedos-user wrote:

>> only problem would be that your typin speed is now limited to 1 haracter per 
>> e.g. 500 milliseconds.
>> not very practical.

> Not at all.  A keyboard driver is going to know when a key is released, as 
> well as when it's pressed.  Nothing preventing it from operating normally 
> when it's released fast enough, and only shifting the character if it isn't 
> released in the alotted time. It doesn't restrict typing speed in the least 
> (with the exception of course of making the capital letters.).

rethinking this, you are right.

if the scancode is interpreted/send to the BIOS as soon as some other scancode 
is detected
(either other key depressed or key-released) typing speed would not be limited.

only "do you agree Y/N" would be limited if you HOLD the Y key. probably not a 
problem.

> I've never tested it, but if you have key repeat turned off, then it's likely 
> the character doesn't appear until you release the key anyhow, so ... 

yes, this feature would require BIOS key repeat and replace it with "automatic 
shift".
I don't see a big problem here as long as this is choosable. 

big problem here is that noone will implement it. 

even bigger one that DOS/WINDOWS/Linux/MacOS would be different. I SHOULD HAVE 
WRITTEN THIS IN ALL CAPS.

Tom
   



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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Jerome Shidel via Freedos-user]

Hi Ralf,

> On Feb 9, 2024, at 2:16 PM, Ralf Quint via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Are you guys trying to have DOS behave like macOS? 
> 
> Beside that any trickery with the keyboard controller would only work on an 
> AT keyboard, where the controller chip is actually on the motherboard of the 
> computer, and thus accessible with an I/O port, on XT/PC keyboards the 
> controller is in the keyboard itself and not/far less accessible for any 
> programming..
> 
> 
> Ralf

You don’t really need to reprogram the keyboard controller. You just need to 
take control away from the BIOS. It is what happens in my game engine. Now 
processing the keystrokes at that level gets a little weird. The incoming scan 
codes can very widely based on the keyboard controllers state. There aren’t 
just E0+ codes. Plus on top of that, you can get multiple codes for a single 
keypress or release.

Nothing insurmountable. 

:-)

Jerome


> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Ralf Quint via Freedos-user]

On 2/9/2024 11:25 AM, Thomas Cornelius Desi wrote:

Well, if it would work, changing the keyboard should be an easy task. / E bay 
has c a couple of accessible AT Keyboards )
Thanks for considering the problem!


Well, a XT/PC keyboard will only work with an XT or PC, and an AT 
keyboard will only work with an AT type of computer. Because of the 
location of the keyboard controller, you can't just switch them between 
those types of computers, unless you have one of those keyboards that 
have an "XT/AT" switch to enable or disable the keyboard controller (and 
actually, the data protocol between computer and keyboard changes as 
well)...



Ralf




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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Piotr, 

do you mean  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSKEY ?

Thomas

> On 09.02.2024, at 20:18, Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Piotr, 
> 
> yes, interesting idea. I can live with such a solution. 
> 
> I don’t know any words in German beginning with a double letter ;) 
> 
> So - let me know, how can I implement this to us it in my text editor (VED 
> Text editor by preference) 
> Is it a macro or how does it work?
> 
> Best, 
> Thomas
> 
> 
>> On 09.02.2024, at 06:38, Piotr Ćwikła via Freedos-user 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi i think can be done ez with aliases, You can just write aaa = A  or bbb=B 
>> and you not need return anything. :) I have hope this can help or even 
>> easier if free dos can alias space then combination can be space a =A or use 
>> dot command like in old word processor WordStar4.0 example --> .bp (breake 
>> page). Some simple alias can do for you what you want :) just little 
>> diffrent way. I think idea is ok but question is what app you must use to do 
>> this. If only freeDos then no problem.
>> W dniu 08.02.2024 o 13:18, Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user pisze:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows 
>>> the following:
>>> 
>>> holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?
>>> 
>>> Example: 
>>> 
>>> press key »a« and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds, 
>>> => print shift-a = »A« on screen.
>>> 
>>> Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been 
>>> done or any hints where to look?
>>> 
>>> Thanks! Thomas
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>> -- 
>> Jak to wszystko się zaczęło?
>> Kiedy powinniśmy oszukać przeznaczenie i odwrócić je?
>> Prawdopodobnie niemożliwe jest, by odpowiedzieć teraz,
>> z głębokiego wnętrza płynącego czasu...
>> 
>> Po co więc bezustannie wracamy.
>> My kochamy tak wiele, a nienawidzimy tak bardzo.
>> My ranimy innych i gdzieś ranimy siebie...
>> 
>> Lecz nawet wtedy, biegniemy jak wiatr.
>> Podczas, gdy śmiech nasz odbija się echem.
>> Pod lazurowym niebem...
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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Well, if it would work, changing the keyboard should be an easy task. / E bay 
has c a couple of accessible AT Keyboards )
Thanks for considering the problem!

Thomas

> On 09.02.2024, at 20:16, Ralf Quint via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Are you guys trying to have DOS behave like macOS? 
> 
> Beside that any trickery with the keyboard controller would only work on an 
> AT keyboard, where the controller chip is actually on the motherboard of the 
> computer, and thus accessible with an I/O port, on XT/PC keyboards the 
> controller is in the keyboard itself and not/far less accessible for any 
> programming..
> 
> 
> Ralf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

HI, 

> On 09.02.2024, at 19:31, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> The driver could include “accessibility” support. When enabled, do things 
> like disable autorepeat and AUTOSHIFT letters when the key is held down.

is this available?

best, 
Thomas

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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Hi Piotr, 

yes, interesting idea. I can live with such a solution. 

I don’t know any words in German beginning with a double letter ;) 

So - let me know, how can I implement this to us it in my text editor (VED Text 
editor by preference) 
Is it a macro or how does it work?

Best, 
Thomas


> On 09.02.2024, at 06:38, Piotr Ćwikła via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi i think can be done ez with aliases, You can just write aaa = A  or bbb=B 
> and you not need return anything. :) I have hope this can help or even easier 
> if free dos can alias space then combination can be space a =A or use dot 
> command like in old word processor WordStar4.0 example --> .bp (breake page). 
> Some simple alias can do for you what you want :) just little diffrent way. I 
> think idea is ok but question is what app you must use to do this. If only 
> freeDos then no problem.
> 
> W dniu 08.02.2024 o 13:18, Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user pisze:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows 
>> the following:
>> 
>> holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?
>> 
>> Example: 
>> 
>> press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,  
>> => print shift-a = »A« on screen.
>> 
>> Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been 
>> done or any hints where to look?
>> 
>> Thanks! Thomas
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net 
>> 
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> -- 
> Jak to wszystko się zaczęło?
> Kiedy powinniśmy oszukać przeznaczenie i odwrócić je?
> Prawdopodobnie niemożliwe jest, by odpowiedzieć teraz,
> z głębokiego wnętrza płynącego czasu...
> 
> Po co więc bezustannie wracamy.
> My kochamy tak wiele, a nienawidzimy tak bardzo.
> My ranimy innych i gdzieś ranimy siebie...
> 
> Lecz nawet wtedy, biegniemy jak wiatr.
> Podczas, gdy śmiech nasz odbija się echem.
> Pod lazurowym niebem...
> ___
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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Ralf Quint via Freedos-user]

Are you guys trying to have DOS behave like macOS? 

Beside that any trickery with the keyboard controller would only work on 
an AT keyboard, where the controller chip is actually on the motherboard 
of the computer, and thus accessible with an I/O port, on XT/PC 
keyboards the controller is in the keyboard itself and not/far less 
accessible for any programming..



Ralf






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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Hi Eric, 

I only now saw your earlier email with your detailed ideas how to approach the 
question.

I would only need letters a-z to be shifted. 


> On 08.02.2024, at 23:18, Eric Auer via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:

> But if you
> are happy with just the most mainstream keys acting in that
> "long press means shift" style and only while no actual
> ctrl, shift, alt or similar modifier keys are pressed, it
> should be quite feasible to implement this.


-> I use codepage 850, i.e. ASCII extended central European, so the UMLAUTE äöü 
shifted would be a bonus ;) … 

> 
> Note that you will also have to manipulate the autorepeat
> functionality of the keyboard or BIOS. For example our
> MODE CON RATE=... DELAY=... command shows how to do this.
> It just uses BIOS function int 16.0305, no low-level trick.

I use a TIPRO programmable keyboard which lets me switch off autorepeat per 
key. 
I prefer to switch it off in general, to avoid accidental letter-repeating...
> 
> You can also think of the driver keeping track of WHICH
> key is in progress of being pressed for longer, for extra
> control over the interaction of typematics and autoshift.
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 

Thanks, best regards, Thomas

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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Jerome Shidel via Freedos-user]

Well, 

If I were making something to support typing those extra/alternate characters, 
the driver would probably behave like this…

Normal typing and continuous key press would behave as normal. This includes 
key repeating at the set typographic rate.

I would implement some of the techniques used in my gaming engine to support 
keys that are not supported by DOS and DOS programs. By default, it would 
probably bind to the Fn (Function) key. However, could be changed to any 
physical key such as the Win, Left-Alt, Right-Shift. Or even very special keys 
like Play, WWW, Search, etc. 

When the Fn (The default bound key)  was pressed, the driver would wait for 
another key such as “a”. Each time the letter “a” was pressed it would cycle 
through the special keys configured for Fn+a. These combinations could be 
different for Shift+Fn+a. The cycling would just involve sending a Backspace 
then the New Key. When the user finally released the Fn key, the system should 
continue processing keys normally.

The driver would also probably support longer key sequences and macros. Like 
possibly Fn+Ctrl+D could type out the current date.

The driver could include “accessibility” support. When enabled, do things like 
disable autorepeat and AUTOSHIFT letters when the key is held down. Plus allow 
making Fn sticky. Press once for special combinations, press again to go back 
to normal. Etc.

This is all stuff I’ve considered adding directly to the V8Turbo Command 
Interpreter/Shell. Along with support for different such mappings based on what 
program is running. 

Hopefully, I’ll find the time to return to it’s development at some point. I 
want to restructure it to make it even more efficient before continuing much 
further. I just don’t have the spare time at present. 

:-)

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi!


So it would need a »timer« to count from pressed key to released. if >500 ms, 
it should send an ASCII


We understood that. But be aware that you normally set the
typematic function to start typing MULTIPLE characters after
a selectable delay of between 250 and (at most) 1000 msec.

So if you hold the "a" key for more than 1 second, would
you want it to type multiple "a" or rather multiple "A"?

And would you need this "hold for at least 500 ms to get
A instead of a" only for A-Z or also for other keys?

Bret mentioned the example that people want to keep "="
pressed to type "" lines and I myself would want to
keep "left" pressed to move the cursor further left etc.


example

uppercase A = DECIMAL code 65

lowercase a = DECIMAL code 97

Difference between lowercase and uppercase is 32


In my example with MKEYB, you would not actually manipulate
the ASCII value. Instead, you manipulate whether the BIOS
believes whether you have pressed SHIFT ;-) The actual key
to ASCII conversion stays in the reliable hands of the BIOS.


Would this work?


Sure. You would not even need a new timer for it, because you
already HAVE a system timer tick counter. So you just look
at that counter when a key is pressed and look again when
it is released. Then you calculate the difference and based
on that you decide whether the special driver pretends SHIFT
was pressed at the moment the key got released ;-)

Of course this means you have to modify the source CODE.
It will not make the driver much more complex. Feasible.

The other suggestion was that you could press some key
which is otherwise not used BEFORE typing the "a" to tell
the driver that you mean "A". This is very similar to the
well-known feature that you can press ^ followed by a to
type â and so on.

A driver which already has support for such accent combos
could probably support new combos for upper case chars by
simply editing the CONFIGURATION without editing the CODE.

You could probably use a key like one of the windows keys,
the scroll lock key or some accent you do not really use
as "the accent/special key which makes the next character
you type an upper case one" :-)

Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Yes, if I release the key under e.g. 500 Milliseconds, it would be the lower 
case letter, if I hold it 500 ms and more, it would return a Upper case 
(shifted) letter. 
So it would need a »timer« to count from pressed key to released. if >500 ms, 
it should send an ASCI 

example

uppercase A = DECIMAL code 65

lowercase a = DECIMAL code 97 

Difference between lowercase and uppercase is 32
subtract 32 from the Ascii Letter Code and you get the Uppercase (= shift) 
Version. 

Would this work?

Thomas

> 
> Not at all.  A keyboard driver is going to know when a key is released, as 
> well as when it's pressed.  Nothing preventing it from operating normally 
> when it's released fast enough, and only shifting the character if it isn't 
> released in the alotted time. It doesn't restrict typing speed in the least 
> (with the exception of course of making the capital letters.).
> 
> I've never tested it, but if you have key repeat turned off, then it's likely 
> the character doesn't appear until you release the key anyhow, so ... 
> 



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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi!

Indeed I was hinting at "manipulating 40:17 does not automatically
sync the physical LED, but we might not care for auto shift anyway".

Regarding your idea to show shift LED status on screen, check out
the old LOCKTONE with audible feedback: https://auersoft.eu/soft/

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Bret Johnson via Freedos-user]

> It has been a very long time. But, if I recall correctly, I’m fairly sure 
> you
> can programmatically change the LEDs as well. But, I don’t recall the
> details. But, I might have code sitting around somewhere that has that
> functionality. 

The LED status is contained in the BIOS Data Area (BDA), but it is not always 
correctly synced with the actual LEDs, especially in some Virtual Machines.  I 
also have problems with my USB keyboard drivers maintaining this 
synchronization.  Simply setting the LED on (or off) in the BDA doesn't 
guarantee that the correct signal gets sent to the keyboard to control the LED 
(if the keyboard even has LEDs, which modern keyboards often don't, especially 
if they're wireless).

> However excluding CAPS LOCK LED, I don’t think I’ve had a keyboard with 
> the
> other LEDs for a very long time.  No real way for me to test that at present.

FWIW, I'm working on a TSR called LOCKEYS that displays the status of the Lock 
Keys (Shift, Num, and Scroll) and also the INSert status, on the screen.  It's 
basically ready to go, but I still have some tweaks to do.  But I can send a 
"pre-release" copy to anybody who wants a copy right now.

At first I thought what I should do with it is have it mimic the LED status in 
the BDA, but that turned out to be very problematic (especially in VMs).  So I 
have it mimic the Lock key status in the BDA instead (what the BIOS and 
therefore what most DOS programs think the Lock Key status is, not necessarily 
what the LEDs think it is).  I also added the INSert status to the display 
since that is useful to know and not always obvious in all situations.


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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Bret Johnson via Freedos-user]

> is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows the
> following:
>
> holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?
>
> Example: 
>
> press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,  
> => print shift-a = »A« on screen.

You might be able to do something similar with my SCANCODE program, which 
allows you to change one key or key combination into another series of 
keystrokes.  Unfortunately, it doesn't respond to how long you press a key down 
before releasing it.  But I think you could program it to treat some other 
(innocuous) key, like ScrollLock or Right-Control or something, as a "sticky 
shift" key that is released when you press another key after it.  I haven't 
actually tried, but I think SCANCODE is flexible enough to do that.  This 
option requires pressing two keys instead just pressing and holding one, though.

I think your idea of pressing holding down the "a" key to capitalize it instead 
of holding it down and getting two (or more) a's is going to be more 
problematic than helpful.


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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[tsiegel--- via Freedos-user]

On 2/8/2024 3:34 PM, tom ehlert via Freedos-user wrote:

Hallo Herr Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user,

am Donnerstag, 8. Februar 2024 um 13:18 schrieben Sie:


Hi,
is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows the 
following:
holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?
Example:
press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,

=>> print shift-a = »A« on screen.


Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been done 
or any hints where to look?

this would go to the keyboard driver as only it knows to differentiate between


A-pressed A-pressed --> A

A-pressed A-released A-pressed --> a

only problem would be that your typin speed is now limited to 1 haracter per 
e.g. 500 milliseconds.
not very practical.


Not at all.  A keyboard driver is going to know when a key is released, 
as well as when it's pressed.  Nothing preventing it from operating 
normally when it's released fast enough, and only shifting the character 
if it isn't released in the alotted time. It doesn't restrict typing 
speed in the least (with the exception of course of making the capital 
letters.).


I've never tested it, but if you have key repeat turned off, then it's 
likely the character doesn't appear until you release the key anyhow, so 
... 





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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Piotr Ćwikła via Freedos-user]

Hi i think can be done ez with aliases, You can just write *aaa = A  or 
bbb=B and you not need return anything. :) *I have hope this can help or 
even easier if free dos can alias *space* then combination can be *space 
a =A or use dot command like in old word processor WordStar4.0 example 
--> .bp (breake page)*. Some simple alias can do for you what you want 
:) just little diffrent way. I think idea is ok but question is what app 
you must use to do this. If only freeDos then no problem.


W dniu 08.02.2024 o 13:18, Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user pisze:

Hi,

is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows the 
following:

holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?

Example:

press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,
=> print shift-a = »A« on screen.

Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been done 
or any hints where to look?

Thanks! Thomas



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--
Jak to wszystko się zaczęło?
Kiedy powinniśmy oszukać przeznaczenie i odwrócić je?
Prawdopodobnie niemożliwe jest, by odpowiedzieć teraz,
z głębokiego wnętrza płynącego czasu...

Po co więc bezustannie wracamy.
My kochamy tak wiele, a nienawidzimy tak bardzo.
My ranimy innych i gdzieś ranimy siebie...

Lecz nawet wtedy, biegniemy jak wiatr.
Podczas, gdy śmiech nasz odbija się echem.
Pod lazurowym niebem...
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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user]

Regarding programmatic control of the keyboard LEDs, that was definitely 
possible. I have some od BASIC code I wrote in my early days which 
twiddle some bits in the byte at 0:0417 to accomplish it.




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Thursday, February 8th, 2024 at 11:00 PM, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-user 
 wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> > To fake shifts, one can just modify the flags at 40:17 and 18.
> > It will not update the keyboard LEDs, but that is acceptable.
> > The BIOS itself uses 40:96 and 97 to track its own status.
> 
> 
> It has been a very long time. But, if I recall correctly, I’m fairly sure you 
> can programmatically change the LEDs as well. But, I don’t recall the 
> details. But, I might have code sitting around somewhere that has that 
> functionality.
> 
> However excluding CAPS LOCK LED, I don’t think I’ve had a keyboard with the 
> other LEDs for a very long time. No real way for me to test that at present.
> 
> > Of course the details can get a bit more complicated, as
> > you also have press and release events for shift keys etc.
> > and special E0 ... key combinations and so on. But if you
> > are happy with just the most mainstream keys acting in that
> > "long press means shift" style and only while no actual
> > ctrl, shift, alt or similar modifier keys are pressed, it
> > should be quite feasible to implement this.
> 
> 
> 
> Special and multiple key combinations was something I built into the keyboard 
> driver in the “Danger Engine.” That is the game and application framework I 
> made for some programs provided with FreeDOS.
> 
> The keyboard driver it has can track things like Left-Control+Right-Alt+A+P 
> or Up+Left+Tab. No real limit on total simultaneous keys in the driver. Plus, 
> it recognizes keys not normally supported under DOS. For instance, the Volume 
> keys and Browser buttons on my ancient Logitech Media Keyboard.
> 
> But, that driver is not very efficient. Being a prototype experiment, it is 
> cobbled together. Now that the issues involved were worked out, it needs to 
> be rewritten from scratch.
> 
> Even though the Danger Engine does some neat stuff, the same goes for the 
> entire thing. It definitely needs a rewrite.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Jerome
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Jerome Shidel via Freedos-user]

Hi,


> 
> To fake shifts, one can just modify the flags at 40:17 and 18.
> It will not update the keyboard LEDs, but that is acceptable.
> The BIOS itself uses 40:96 and 97 to track its own status.
> 

It has been a very long time. But, if I recall correctly, I’m fairly sure you 
can programmatically change the LEDs as well. But, I don’t recall the details. 
But, I might have code sitting around somewhere that has that functionality. 

However excluding CAPS LOCK LED, I don’t think I’ve had a keyboard with the 
other LEDs for a very long time.  No real way for me to test that at present.

> Of course the details can get a bit more complicated, as
> you also have press and release events for shift keys etc.
> and special E0 ... key combinations and so on. But if you
> are happy with just the most mainstream keys acting in that
> "long press means shift" style and only while no actual
> ctrl, shift, alt or similar modifier keys are pressed, it
> should be quite feasible to implement this.


Special and multiple key combinations was something I built into the keyboard 
driver in the “Danger Engine.” That is the game and application framework I 
made for some programs provided with FreeDOS. 

The keyboard driver it has can track things like Left-Control+Right-Alt+A+P or 
Up+Left+Tab. No real limit on total simultaneous keys in the driver. Plus, it 
recognizes keys not normally supported under DOS. For instance, the Volume keys 
and Browser buttons on my ancient Logitech Media Keyboard.

But, that driver is not very efficient. Being a prototype experiment, it is 
cobbled together. Now that the issues involved were worked out, it needs to be 
rewritten from scratch.

Even though the Danger Engine does some neat stuff, the same goes for the 
entire thing. It definitely needs a rewrite.

:-)

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[tom ehlert via Freedos-user]

Hallo Herr Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user,

am Donnerstag, 8. Februar 2024 um 13:18 schrieben Sie:

> Hi,

> is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows the 
> following:

> holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?

> Example: 

> press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,  
=>> print shift-a = »A« on screen.

> Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been 
> done or any hints where to look?

this would go to the keyboard driver as only it knows to differentiate between


A-pressed A-pressed --> A

A-pressed A-released A-pressed --> a

only problem would be that your typin speed is now limited to 1 haracter per 
e.g. 500 milliseconds.
not very practical.

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi!


https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/dos/keyb/xkeyb/xkeyb-1994/XKEYB.TXT

This seems one of those nifty keyboard drivers, but it has not time-critical 
functions


I was more thinking in the direction of MKEYB or other int 15.4f
based drivers: They see all key press and key release events and
are able to manipulate things before they return control to the
BIOS keyboard routines.

The idea is as follows:

If the driver sees a key press event, it could record the
current time (counter at 40:6c) and, if a temporary fake
shift was active (see details below), deactivate it now.

If the driver sees a key release event, it could check
if the corresponding key press event was long enough ago.

If yes, it could make the BIOS believe that SHIFT would have
been active at the moment. The driver can set some flag for
itself, so it knows to undo the fake later. Return to BIOS.

To fake shifts, one can just modify the flags at 40:17 and 18.
It will not update the keyboard LEDs, but that is acceptable.
The BIOS itself uses 40:96 and 97 to track its own status.

Of course the details can get a bit more complicated, as
you also have press and release events for shift keys etc.
and special E0 ... key combinations and so on. But if you
are happy with just the most mainstream keys acting in that
"long press means shift" style and only while no actual
ctrl, shift, alt or similar modifier keys are pressed, it
should be quite feasible to implement this.

Note that you will also have to manipulate the autorepeat
functionality of the keyboard or BIOS. For example our
MODE CON RATE=... DELAY=... command shows how to do this.
It just uses BIOS function int 16.0305, no low-level trick.

You can also think of the driver keeping track of WHICH
key is in progress of being pressed for longer, for extra
control over the interaction of typematics and autoshift.

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/dos/keyb/xkeyb/xkeyb-1994/XKEYB.TXT

This seems one of those nifty keyboard drivers, but it has not time-critical 
functions… I would need a driver that counts how long a key has been pressed…
Right? 

Thomas

> On 08.02.2024, at 22:22, Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Eric for the info on Mielke, Sticky Keys ed al. 
> I would like to know how such a »driver«, as you call it could be realized? 
> I am not a programmer … 
> 
> Thomas
> 
> 
>> On 08.02.2024, at 15:30, Eric Auer via Freedos-user 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> I am not aware of such drivers, but it would not be hard
>> to write one. I think there already are drivers to make
>> shift keys sticky, or to give audible feedback, as in
>> my ancient locktone experiment inspired by Mielke.cc :-)
>> 
>> Eric
>> 
>>> is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows 
>>> the following:
>>> holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?
>>> Example:
>>> press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,
>>> => print shift-a = »A« on screen.
>>> Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been 
>>> done or any hints where to look?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Thanks Eric for the info on Mielke, Sticky Keys ed al. 
I would like to know how such a »driver«, as you call it could be realized? 
I am not a programmer … 

Thomas


> On 08.02.2024, at 15:30, Eric Auer via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I am not aware of such drivers, but it would not be hard
> to write one. I think there already are drivers to make
> shift keys sticky, or to give audible feedback, as in
> my ancient locktone experiment inspired by Mielke.cc :-)
> 
> Eric
> 
>> is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows 
>> the following:
>> holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?
>> Example:
>> press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,
>> => print shift-a = »A« on screen.
>> Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been 
>> done or any hints where to look?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi!

I am not aware of such drivers, but it would not be hard
to write one. I think there already are drivers to make
shift keys sticky, or to give audible feedback, as in
my ancient locktone experiment inspired by Mielke.cc :-)

Eric


is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows the 
following:

holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?

Example:

press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,
=> print shift-a = »A« on screen.

Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been done 
or any hints where to look?






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[Freedos-user] AUTO SHIFT keyboard on DOS??

[Thomas Cornelius Desi via Freedos-user]

Hi,

is it possible in DOS (using BIOS?) to implement a tsr or so which allows the 
following:

holding a key longer to return a SHIFT-key on screen?

Example: 

press key »a«  and HOLD the key for e.g. 500 milliseconds,  
=> print shift-a = »A« on screen.

Anyone around who has an idea or knowledge if this is possible or has been done 
or any hints where to look?

Thanks! Thomas



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