Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
Sometimes, З and Э (and corresponding small letters) may have descenders, for example, in the Elizabeth typeface. URL, please. Other letters can be added to the above lists (ГИМНТ) Well, yes, but the list should be representative, not exhaustive. Also, you may want to add two blue zones for descenders, based on ЦЩ and цщ (in this case do not forget to check for possible blue zone overlapping). These descenders are actively used in extended Cyrillic. I think that it is not necessary to have blue zones for them since it is sufficient that they stick out from the baseline. And you are right that too near blue zones can be difficult, given that the auto-hinter always applies blue zones globally, this is, it doesn't group glyphs to use only a smaller set of blue zones. Even in the unlikely case that one of the descenders is longer than the other, the visible difference is minor, since there is no longer horizontal line which could displease the eye. Werner ___ Freetype-devel mailing list Freetype-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/freetype-devel
Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
I think the Cambria example represents a process of making different things the same for the sake of leaving a simpler technology in place. It would be great if Freetype embraced the exceptional or more diverse behavior of Cyrillic. Thanks for the instructive images. However, the height differences are only visible if the ppem value is quite large. Given that the auto-hinter ignores blue zones larger than ¾px (this is, if the difference between `overshoot' height and `flat' height is larger than ¾px), I think this is a non-issue. As soon as HarfBuzz support is possible, small caps will get a separate set of blue zones, as will be the case for other typographical features. Werner ___ Freetype-devel mailing list Freetype-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/freetype-devel
Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
Werner, I would resist any excessively special treatment for Cyrillic. Whoever makes the glyphs that should be shared with Latin look different is misguided. Please do not go overboard with this. There are some rather common unique cyrillic fonts. Check out the PSCyr collection http://www.tex.uniyar.ac.ru/package/fonts/pscyr/0.4d-beta9/ Speaking of squareness of Cyrillic or lack thereoff, look at this: http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5046/inkscape2t.jpg Best, Alexei On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:14 AM, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org wrote: I think the Cambria example represents a process of making different things the same for the sake of leaving a simpler technology in place. It would be great if Freetype embraced the exceptional or more diverse behavior of Cyrillic. Thanks for the instructive images. However, the height differences are only visible if the ppem value is quite large. Given that the auto-hinter ignores blue zones larger than ¾px (this is, if the difference between `overshoot' height and `flat' height is larger than ¾px), I think this is a non-issue. As soon as HarfBuzz support is possible, small caps will get a separate set of blue zones, as will be the case for other typographical features. Werner ___ Freetype-devel mailing list Freetype-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/freetype-devel -- Alexei A. Podtelezhnikov, PhD ___ Freetype-devel mailing list Freetype-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/freetype-devel
Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
I would resist any excessively special treatment for Cyrillic. There won't be any special treatment beyond disunification with Latin, and this I've implemented yesterday... Werner ___ Freetype-devel mailing list Freetype-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/freetype-devel
Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
Maybe you are right. I am not sure. The ideal thing would be for FreeType to suppress this difference in the EF at small heights and let it register at larger ones. The real problem might come if it changes its mind intermittently. It is that kind of irregularity that will send the most serious people off to manual hinting again. What do you expect will happen? I am about to find out because i am adding Cyrillic to Merriweather and will be hinting it with TTFA. :-) -e. On Sep 23, 2013, at 4:14 AM, Werner LEMBERG wrote: I think the Cambria example represents a process of making different things the same for the sake of leaving a simpler technology in place. It would be great if Freetype embraced the exceptional or more diverse behavior of Cyrillic. Thanks for the instructive images. However, the height differences are only visible if the ppem value is quite large. Given that the auto-hinter ignores blue zones larger than ¾px (this is, if the difference between `overshoot' height and `flat' height is larger than ¾px), I think this is a non-issue. As soon as HarfBuzz support is possible, small caps will get a separate set of blue zones, as will be the case for other typographical features. Werner ___ Freetype-devel mailing list Freetype-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/freetype-devel
Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
The ideal thing would be for FreeType to suppress this difference in
the EF at small heights and let it register at larger ones.
This is the normal behaviour. Here are the blue zone character
strings, together with the stringset definition which uses them:
AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_TOP
БВЕПЗОСЭ
AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_BOTTOM
БВЕШЗОСЭ
AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL /* for both top and bottom */
хпншезос
AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL_MINOR /* bottom only */
руф
AF_BLUE_STRINGSET_CYRL
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_TOP,AF_BLUE_PROPERTY_LATIN_TOP
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_BOTTOM, 0
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL, AF_BLUE_PROPERTY_LATIN_TOP |
AF_BLUE_PROPERTY_LATIN_SMALL_TOP
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL, 0
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL_MINOR,0
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_MAX, 0
}
Value `0' means that it is a bottom blue zone. As you can see, there
is no string for lowercase letters with ascenders, which is
intentional. In particular, there is no blue zone for the upper part
of lowercase EF. On the other hand, lowercase letters with descenders
are aligned at the bottom.
Regarding the uppercase EF, it is intentionally not in any blue zone
charset; as a consequence, any special height or depth value of this
glyph doesn't influence the position of the blue zones (which is
computed as the mean value, based on the glyphs in the corresponding
string). If the top or bottom position of a glyph is near the blue
zone, it gets snapped, otherwise it stays as-is.
What do you expect will happen? I am about to find out because i am
adding Cyrillic to Merriweather and will be hinting it with
TTFA. :-)
I will soon add the recent changes to the auto-hinter to ttfautohint
also, so stay tuned :-) Meanwhile, if you have some time, I would be
glad if you could test your collection of Cyrillic fonts with the git
version of FreeType. With the `ftgrid' demo program, for example, you
can easily observe the outline distortions at any ppem value.
Werner
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Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
I have to keep rapidly designing this cyrillic but I will see if I can get all
that running shortly. I am keen to help.
Cheers!
-e.
On Sep 24, 2013, at 1:07 AM, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
The ideal thing would be for FreeType to suppress this difference in
the EF at small heights and let it register at larger ones.
This is the normal behaviour. Here are the blue zone character
strings, together with the stringset definition which uses them:
AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_TOP
БВЕПЗОСЭ
AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_BOTTOM
БВЕШЗОСЭ
AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL /* for both top and bottom */
хпншезос
AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL_MINOR /* bottom only */
руф
AF_BLUE_STRINGSET_CYRL
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_TOP,AF_BLUE_PROPERTY_LATIN_TOP
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_CAPITAL_BOTTOM, 0
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL, AF_BLUE_PROPERTY_LATIN_TOP
|
AF_BLUE_PROPERTY_LATIN_SMALL_TOP
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL, 0
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_CYRILLIC_SMALL_MINOR,0
}
{ AF_BLUE_STRING_MAX, 0
}
Value `0' means that it is a bottom blue zone. As you can see, there
is no string for lowercase letters with ascenders, which is
intentional. In particular, there is no blue zone for the upper part
of lowercase EF. On the other hand, lowercase letters with descenders
are aligned at the bottom.
Regarding the uppercase EF, it is intentionally not in any blue zone
charset; as a consequence, any special height or depth value of this
glyph doesn't influence the position of the blue zones (which is
computed as the mean value, based on the glyphs in the corresponding
string). If the top or bottom position of a glyph is near the blue
zone, it gets snapped, otherwise it stays as-is.
What do you expect will happen? I am about to find out because i am
adding Cyrillic to Merriweather and will be hinting it with
TTFA. :-)
I will soon add the recent changes to the auto-hinter to ttfautohint
also, so stay tuned :-) Meanwhile, if you have some time, I would be
glad if you could test your collection of Cyrillic fonts with the git
version of FreeType. With the `ftgrid' demo program, for example, you
can easily observe the outline distortions at any ppem value.
Werner
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Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
On 13-09-22 11:20, Denis Jacquerye wrote: Some designers have Cyrillic with slightly taller x-height (sometimes by a minute amount) to adjust the squareness of the script relative to the roundness of Latin, even glyphs that are usually components have adjusted outlines. Veronika Burian's Maiola is one such example. A. -- May success attend your efforts, -- Adam Twardoch (Remove list. from e-mail address to contact me directly.) ___ Freetype-devel mailing list Freetype-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/freetype-devel
Re: [ft-devel] [ft] Latin, Cyrillic, and Greek fonts questions
Thanks to all who have responded. In git, the auto-hinter now handles Cyrillic and Greek separately from Latin glyphs. Please test! Cyrillic glyphs need two accommodations. The letter Ef in capital form should overshoot the usual cap height AND overshoot. You probably mean letter Ef in lowercase form, right? Free type should allow for this exception in some way. This should now work. I've simply omitted a top blue zone for small letters with ascenders. Small caps in Cyrillic may need to have their own height which differs from the one used by the Latin. Again, it would be ideal if free type knows this can happen. This will be (almost) automatically supported as soon as the linking issue with HarfBuzz gets resolved. I've already written the code for OpenType feature support, which is now waiting for testing :-) Werner ___ Freetype-devel mailing list Freetype-devel@nongnu.org https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/freetype-devel
