[FRIAM] 25:10 video re Andea Rossi with stirring background music and English translation, with details about two previous major inventions that failed wastefully, and public demos from Jan 15 to Apr

[Rich Murray]

25:10 video re Andea Rossi with stirring background music and English
translation, with details about two previous major inventions that
failed wastefully, and public demos from Jan 15 to Apr 28: Rich Murray
2011.05.05

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/05/05/the-magic-of-mr-rossi-in-english/

25:10 video with stirring background music and English translation,
with details about two previous major inventions that failed and
wasted huge investments in past decades, with views of public
demonstrations from Jan 15 to April 25.


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[FRIAM] more tornados

[Nicholas Thompson]

Here is one that has a steady picture over a relatively long period of time.


 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HX_L-FDLCc
 &feature=relmfu

 

The best footage on this one is in the second half.  Turn the sound down if
the frenetic hyperventilation of the film crew bores you. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNL7ASvl4k4

 

Same is true here;  lots of tiresome melodrama and shifting camera at the
beginning, but the stuff from the middle on is breathtaking. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsTDWgmPCuY
 &NR=1

 

Sometimes it appears as if the visible tornado is doing the damage;
sometimes it appears as if the air around the tornado Is doing the damage.  

 

Again, I would love to know how these WORK? 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org  

 

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] vol 95, issue 97

[Gary Schiltz]

Thanks Nick, someone needed to say that.

Sure there are tangents, but as mailing lists go, FRIAM has a pretty high 
signal to noise ratio.

It also has a quite diverse group of participants and lurkers. Sometimes we 
agree, sometimes we don't; sometimes we like to jump on the unpopular side of a 
controversial topic, other times we echo the politically correct view.

For the most part, we have fairly thick skins, though we don't usually need 
them. It would be a shame if we kept the tenor so neutral as to never offend 
anyone. But if someone really finds us that offensive, then like you said, the 
exit sign is brightly lit. Their loss.

;; Gary


On May 6, 2011, at 9:03 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> RussG, 
> 
> A message such as you wrote is ambiguous because it is a demand TO the list
> to be taken OFF the list.  If you simply wanted to be taken OFF the list,
> the instructions for doing that are at the bottom of every post from the
> list.  So, it sounds like you want us to talk about the decline of the
> relevance to the list for your concerns.  
> 
> I agree that some focus and restraint is important in a forum such as FRIAM.
> As a heavy poster to the list, I feel the sting of your comments, and will
> try to make my contributions sharper in the future.  But I have always found
> the list pretty responsive to any topic that is introduced in a reasonably
> compact manner (not a skill of mine).  So, if you are still with us, I would
> urge you to put a question or concern to the list and see what we do with
> it.  If nothing of value comes of that, then use the instructions at the
> bottom of the list, or write Steve Guerin as sgue...@redfish.com and you
> will be free!
> 
> All the best, 
> 
> Nick 



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] Big Whorls have little Whorls!!

[Nicholas Thompson]

Peter, 

 

You missed it because the original video-links did not find their way into my 
messages, for some reason.   I have been fascinated by thunderstorms all my 
life, and particularly by the big ones.  So, after every tornado outbreak, I go 
on the web and watch tornado videos and wonder at how such a thing could ever 
be produced.  Even tho I failed to post the material last night, still we had 
an extended discussion at FRIAM today of the origination of tornadoes.  Nobody 
at the table knew much about the subject, but that didn’t keep us from trying.  
Two theories were offered, one the tipped up roll theory and the other the 
descending collar theory.   Both theories start with a complex laminated 
atmosphere which one often finds east of the Rockies, in which hot dry air over 
runs cooler most air.  The tipped-up roll theory stresses the shear between the 
two layers as the eastward moving dry layer encounters the westward moving 
moist one.  Rolls form between the two layers and these can get tipped on end 
by convection and form the seed for a tornado.  The descending collar theory 
focuses on the tremendous instability of the layered atmosphere as the days 
heating moistens and heats the cooler most air at the surface.  At some point 
in the diurnal cycle, the relatively cooler moister air at the surface becomes 
lighter than overrunning relatively warmer air and starts to poke holes through 
it.  At this point the surface air starts rushing through the “hole” toward the 
stratosphere, which is why you see these plumes of cirrus blowoff at the 
tropopause down wind of the these mesoscale convective complexes.  Coreolis 
force imparts a twist to this violently  rising column of air and selection 
focuses most of the upward movement in one area of the storm, so essentially 
the entire lower atmosphere drains up through this hole.   So, this gives you a 
high altitude mesoscale rotation which forms the “collar”.   It imparts 
rotation to the slightly smaller collar below it, which rotates faster because 
of conservation of momentum, that imparts rotation to the slightly smaller 
collar below IT, etc.  As long is there is not too much sheer within the moist 
air at the surface, the rotation can propagate to the ground and form a 
tornado.  (As you can see from my descriptive enthusiasm, I am a proponent of 
the latter theory.)  

 

We also needed you for a discussion concerning the dynamics of lift in airplane 
wings.  Again, two theories were offered: the differential velocity over curved 
top of the wing diminishing the pressure on the top of the wing or the 
viscosity of the air pulling the wing up.   The conclusion of the discussion 
was that both effects occurred but that the viscosity of the air was the more 
important.  I hope I have that right.  It was asserted that the latter theory 
must be correct because otherwise planes could not fly upside down.   I 
couldn’t quite follow that line of argument since it seemed to involve a mixing 
of the two previous arguments with an assumption that the upside down aircraft 
would maintain its position in the sky by having a slight upward angle of 
attack.  

 

ANYWAY:  Here’s an example of the tornado videos.  I assume it’s not a fake.  
The really good examples I found last night seem to have been taken down.  I 
will look again later tonight.  If you search “tornado videos” you will get all 
you want.  Look out for the Kansas one.  I think that IS a fake.  Sorry about 
the ads.  

 

Love 

 

Nick 

From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of 
plissa...@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 3:50 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] Big Whorls have little Whorls!!

 

I missed the initial posting re Vortices!  Can someone kindly repeat the 
question.  I spent 50 years dealing professionally with vorticity and its 
curious consequences.
Remember the Jabberwock, where his "Vorpal sword went snicker-snack!"?

 

Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA
tel:(505)983-7728 

- Original Message -
From: friam-requ...@redfish.com
To: friam@redfish.com
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 10:00:28 AM
Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 95, Issue 7

Send Friam mailing list submissions to
friam@redfish.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
friam-requ...@redfish.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
friam-ow...@redfish.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. How do these things WORK? (Nicholas  Thompson)
   2. notice the multiple vortices (Nicholas  Thompson)
   3. Re: off topic., but still (Mohammed El-Beltagy)

Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

[Vladimyr Burachynsky]

I urge the angry to ask why. Too often storming away from a table is exactly
why we never break ground.

As to the topic of Complexity , this is one component you never inquired of,
Why do sensible people become IDIOTS. How does society create idiots out of
men?

That was my reason to join long ago. The fact that IDIOTS are convinced that
they are correct Fascinates me.

How can any of us  trust the words coming out of our mouths, if we were to
discover we have been blindly lead by a Narrative into a cul de sac of
Idiocy.

 

 

The story of binLaden was writen long ago Tolstoy. The short story, Hadji
Murat,  describes much of the same atmosphere.  

The killing was easy , the understanding is difficult.

 

It takes no great skill to kill, any brute can do it, it is a much greater
challenge  to keep something alive.

 

How do we model stupifaction of real people? 

 

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD

 

 

  vbur...@shaw.ca

 

 

 

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2

Canada 

 (204) 2548321 Land

(204) 8016064  Cell

 

 

 

From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf
Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: May-06-11 7:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

 

Salaam Mohammed,

 

Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of
accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the
historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with mid-eastern
political entities that you so accurately denote below.  For reasons that I
fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots.  Nearly as
discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of multiple nations
of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of mid eastern
countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are a planet of
idiots.

 

Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm
sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.

 

Best,

 

--Doug

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy 
wrote:

Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve.

I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read
my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack
the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised
against any human being, and that also happens to includes
Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans.

I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following:
1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups
with unsavory ideologies during the cold war.
2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle
east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years.
3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many
Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under
Saddam!!!
4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind
their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia.
That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal
family hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism.

I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on
any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that
it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and
hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this
monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
still active. That worries me. That must stop.

Cheers,

Mohammed


On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> Mohammed -
>
> I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add
the
> following to hers:
>
> I agree with Peggy on most points.  Terrorism is always horrific (it is
> designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent
it's
> occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can.   The apprehension
(by
> death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem
(and
> Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our
own
> part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we are
> surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the
> first place.
>
> Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that
we
> are "becoming" more predatory.  I do believe that in our greed and fear we
> continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military,
even
> popular culture.   And thereby we become more *capable predators* than
> ever.  But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been
> predatory...
>
> By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the
West",
> "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even "Primates"
> or "Sentient Creatures" or what...   certainly the last US administration
> was more hawkish a

Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

[Mohammed El-Beltagy]

I have a question I would like to pose to the group in that regard:

Can we model/simulate how in a democracy that is inherently open (as
stated in the constitution: for the people, by the people etc..) there
emerges "decision masking  structures" emerge that actively obfuscate
the participatory nature of the democratic decision making for their
ends?


On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 3:50 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> I knew we could depend on you Doug!
>
> My own twisted optimism is nicely complemented by your, what do you call it,
> pragmatism?
>
> Sadly, to first order, I think your description of us as a "planet of
> idiots" comes way too close... my only bicker with it is perhaps whether
> there is something to be done about it?
>
> And for the sake of the list's identity, is there a role for Complexity
> Science in arriving at that answer or it's implementation.
>
> - Steve
>
> Salaam Mohammed,
> Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of
> accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the
> historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with
> mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below.  For
> reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots.
>  Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of
> multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of
> mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are
> a planet of idiots.
> Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm
> sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.
> Best,
> --Doug
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>



-- 
http://perfectionatic.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/#!/perfectionatic


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] vol 95, issue 97

[Nicholas Thompson]

RussG, 

A message such as you wrote is ambiguous because it is a demand TO the list
to be taken OFF the list.  If you simply wanted to be taken OFF the list,
the instructions for doing that are at the bottom of every post from the
list.  So, it sounds like you want us to talk about the decline of the
relevance to the list for your concerns.  

I agree that some focus and restraint is important in a forum such as FRIAM.
As a heavy poster to the list, I feel the sting of your comments, and will
try to make my contributions sharper in the future.  But I have always found
the list pretty responsive to any topic that is introduced in a reasonably
compact manner (not a skill of mine).  So, if you are still with us, I would
urge you to put a question or concern to the list and see what we do with
it.  If nothing of value comes of that, then use the instructions at the
bottom of the list, or write Steve Guerin as sgue...@redfish.com and you
will be free!

All the best, 

Nick 

-Original Message-
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf
Of Russell Standish
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 5:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vol 95, issue 97

On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 02:26:10PM -0500, Russell Gonnering wrote:
> 
> I joined this forum hoping it would be a platform to discuss complexity, a
subject that has profound implications in the area of my expertise, the
formulation of healthcare policy and delivery of healthcare.  Instead, I
find it a spot that is filled with anything but complexity.  Please take me
off the list.  It has no utility for me.  The inside jokes and
self-congratulatory messages and the politics is frankly quite a bore.
Nothing complex here!   Enjoy yourselves.
> 
> Russ Gonnering
>  

Internet fora are ever thus. There has been plenty of modelling discussion,
and other more philosophical discussion on complexity topics. But they
aren't dominant :).


-- 


Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives,
unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

[Sarbajit Roy]

"*But, to say that it is down to some group of human beings who are simply
evil and  hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in
this
monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
still active. That worries me. That must stop.*"

To use a LoTR analogy, I'd say that the present popular opinion  outside the
USofA is that America is Sauron churning out vast armies of orcs in its
rapacious quest for energy and other vital resoirces. OR, they are the
"aliens" of the movie "Independence Day" plundering and pillaaging
comparatively defenceless planets - the inhabitants of which occassionally
manage to shove a rocket (or two) up their enemies backside with fiery
consequences,

Simplistically, If Americans would simply learn to consume less, respect our
planet's shared environment, sign and follow, say, the Kyoto protoicol, we
could all live in peace and harmony - lions laying with lambs etc.

Lastly, insofar as Osama is concerned, your Govt always knew precisely where
he was, and your President "took him out" of cold storage (Pakistan) to
prepare his 2012 Thanksgiving dinner.

Sarbajit

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 5:03 AM, Mohammed El-Beltagy
wrote:

> Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve.
>
> I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read
> my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack
> the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised
> against any human being, and that also happens to includes
> Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans.
>
> I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following:
> 1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups
> with unsavory ideologies during the cold war.
> 2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle
> east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years.
> 3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many
> Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under
> Saddam!!!
> 4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind
> their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia.
> That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal
> family hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism.
>
> I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on
> any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that
> it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and
> hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this
> monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
> still active. That worries me. That must stop.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mohammed
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> > Mohammed -
> >
> > I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add
> the
> > following to hers:
> >
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

[Douglas Roberts]

Optimists usually view it as pessimism, Steve.  But they're wrong.
 Realism/pragmatism is my lodestone.

--Doug

Postscript:  To those who wish to run away from the FRIAM list, taking their
marbles with them under the guise of *You're not complex enough for me!* let
me just say, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh, and use the listserv to unsubscribe, please."

Thank you.

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  I knew we could depend on you Doug!
>
> My own twisted optimism is nicely complemented by your, what do you call
> it, *pragmatism*?
>
> Sadly, to first order, I think your description of us as a "planet of
> idiots" comes way too close... my only bicker with it is perhaps whether
> there is something to be done about it?
>
> And for the sake of the list's identity, is there a role for Complexity
> Science in arriving at that answer or it's implementation.
>
> - Steve
>
> Salaam Mohammed,
>
>  Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree
> of accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the
> historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with
> mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below.  For
> reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots.
>  Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of
> multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of
> mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are
> a planet of idiots.
>
>  Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm
> sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.
>
>  Best,
>
>  --Doug
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>



-- 
Doug Roberts
drobe...@rti.org
d...@parrot-farm.net
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

[Steve Smith]

I knew we could depend on you Doug!

My own twisted optimism is nicely complemented by your, what do you call 
it, /pragmatism/?


Sadly, to first order, I think your description of us as a "planet of 
idiots" comes way too close... my only bicker with it is perhaps whether 
there is something to be done about it?


And for the sake of the list's identity, is there a role for Complexity 
Science in arriving at that answer or it's implementation.


- Steve

Salaam Mohammed,

Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair 
degree of accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware 
of the historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with 
mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below. 
 For reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation 
of idiots.  Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear 
emergence of multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise 
the majority of mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real 
issue here is that we are a planet of idiots.


Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, 
I'm sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.


Best,

--Doug



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

[Douglas Roberts]

Salaam Mohammed,

Speaking as an American, I'm afraid that I can assert with a fair degree of
accuracy that percentage-wise, very few Americans are aware of the
historical/current events vis-a-vis US interactions with
mid-eastern political entities that you so accurately denote below.  For
reasons that I fail to comprehend, we have truly become a nation of idiots.
 Nearly as discouraging, if I may suggest, is the clear emergence of
multiple nations of Islamic idiots which seem to comprise the majority of
mid eastern countries these days. Perhaps the real issue here is that we are
a planet of idiots.

Several evolutions later the answer to all of this become apparent, I'm
sure, if biological life is still possible on this planet then.

Best,

--Doug

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Mohammed El-Beltagy
wrote:

> Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve.
>
> I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read
> my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack
> the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised
> against any human being, and that also happens to includes
> Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans.
>
> I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following:
> 1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups
> with unsavory ideologies during the cold war.
> 2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle
> east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years.
> 3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many
> Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under
> Saddam!!!
> 4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind
> their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia.
> That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal
> family hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism.
>
> I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on
> any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that
> it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and
> hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this
> monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
> still active. That worries me. That must stop.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mohammed
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> > Mohammed -
> >
> > I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add
> the
> > following to hers:
> >
> > I agree with Peggy on most points.  Terrorism is always horrific (it is
> > designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent
> it's
> > occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can.   The apprehension
> (by
> > death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem
> (and
> > Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our
> own
> > part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we
> are
> > surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the
> > first place.
> >
> > Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that
> we
> > are "becoming" more predatory.  I do believe that in our greed and fear
> we
> > continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military,
> even
> > popular culture.   And thereby we become more *capable predators* than
> > ever.  But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been
> > predatory...
> >
> > By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the
> West",
> > "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even
> "Primates"
> > or "Sentient Creatures" or what...   certainly the last US administration
> > was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a while and
> arguably
> > it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more predatory posture
> that
> > the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were standing on the
> shoulders
> > of giants.  They did not invent predation, they merely amped it up,
> cashed
> > in on it.  As sick as it sounds, they may have done us a favor by
> exposing
> > our own nature to us in such a blunt manner.
> >
> >  The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of
> > discovery, colonization and empire.   With the whole north American
> > continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european
> > powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the
> > rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII
> giving
> > us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and industrial
> > presence.  The cold war was either a continuation or a result of that.
> >
> > The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a
> great
> > deal in the middle east and north Africa...   and we, who became the
> > mightiest economic and military power amongst the industria

Re: [FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

[Mohammed El-Beltagy]

Thanks Steve and Peggy, you give me more praise than I deserve.

I naturally see terrorism as abhorrent and I regret that Russel read
my few lines as an attempt to be an apologists for those who attack
the US and Israel. I am against any form of violence being exercised
against any human being, and that also happens to includes
Palestinians, Iraqis, and Afghans.

I just wonder how many Americans aware of the following:
1. The US supported and trained Bin Laden and a host of other groups
with unsavory ideologies during the cold war.
2. The US supported and continues to support dictators in the middle
east. They have been propping up Mubark for 30 years.
3. Official civilian deaths in Iraq are now in excess of 100K. Many
Iraqi refuges in Cairo tell me that life was MUCH better under
Saddam!!!
4. The US actively supports Saudi Arabia and does not seem to mind
their proselytizing Wahhabism in the middle east and South East Asia.
That ideology justifies and absolute rule of the Saudi Royal
family hence cheep oil.. but also the side effect of terrorism.

I agree with Peggy that it would be wrong to lay the blame fully on
any one country (I would also add religion,and race). But, to say that
it is down to some group of human beings who are simply evil and
hateful is equally mindless. They US played a significant part in this
monster creation. To my mind, the processes of monster creation is
still active. That worries me. That must stop.

Cheers,

Mohammed

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
> Mohammed -
>
> I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add the
> following to hers:
>
> I agree with Peggy on most points.  Terrorism is always horrific (it is
> designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent it's
> occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can.   The apprehension (by
> death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act but as your poem (and
> Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this moment to reflect on our own
> part in having created the monster we finally destroyed, and in how we are
> surely continuing to create the conditions that lead to all this in the
> first place.
>
> Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication that we
> are "becoming" more predatory.  I do believe that in our greed and fear we
> continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, military, even
> popular culture.   And thereby we become more *capable predators* than
> ever.  But I think the fundamental problem is that we have always been
> predatory...
>
> By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the West",
> "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even "Primates"
> or "Sentient Creatures" or what...   certainly the last US administration
> was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a while and arguably
> it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more predatory posture that
> the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were standing on the shoulders
> of giants.  They did not invent predation, they merely amped it up, cashed
> in on it.  As sick as it sounds, they may have done us a favor by exposing
> our own nature to us in such a blunt manner.
>
>  The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of
> discovery, colonization and empire.   With the whole north American
> continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european
> powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the
> rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII giving
> us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and industrial
> presence.  The cold war was either a continuation or a result of that.
>
> The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a great
> deal in the middle east and north Africa...   and we, who became the
> mightiest economic and military power amongst the industrialized world,
> became dominant players in that meddling.   Our predatory behaviour in this
> regard is more like that of the Hudson Bay Company or the East India Company
> than the conquistadors of Spain in the new world gathering gold and souls or
> the European Crusaders retaking their "holy lands".   But it is predatory
> nonetheless, and every one of us depends on that predation for our high
> standard of living.
>
> We have allowed, no encouraged, and I fear even supported overtly and
> covertly via our intelligence and military resources, the expansion of a
> global network of industries and businesses as their own empire.   Petroleum
> is the obvious commodity, but we have done the same with other natural
> resources (minerals, precious metals and gems, timber, even agriculture and
> human labor).
>
> What can we do?  Can the Lion lay down with the Lamb?  Is there in fact a
> Lamb, or just Cats of many sizes and stripe?  My world is split into two
> very distinct camps:  1) Thos

Re: [FRIAM] vol 95, issue 97

[Russell Standish]

On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 02:26:10PM -0500, Russell Gonnering wrote:
> 
> I joined this forum hoping it would be a platform to discuss complexity, a 
> subject that has profound implications in the area of my expertise, the 
> formulation of healthcare policy and delivery of healthcare.  Instead, I find 
> it a spot that is filled with anything but complexity.  Please take me off 
> the list.  It has no utility for me.  The inside jokes and 
> self-congratulatory messages and the politics is frankly quite a bore.  
> Nothing complex here!   Enjoy yourselves.
> 
> Russ Gonnering
>  

Internet fora are ever thus. There has been plenty of modelling
discussion, and other more philosophical discussion on complexity
topics. But they aren't dominant :).


-- 


Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[FRIAM] Big Whorls have little Whorls!!

[plissaman]

I missed the initial posting re Vortices!  Can someone kindly repeat the 
question.  I spent 50 years dealing professionally with vorticity and its 
curious consequences. 
Remember the Jabberwock, where his "Vorpal sword went snicker-snack!"? 



Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures 

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA 
tel:(505)983-7728 

- Original Message - 
From: friam-requ...@redfish.com 
To: friam@redfish.com 
Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 10:00:28 AM 
Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 95, Issue 7 

Send Friam mailing list submissions to 
friam@redfish.com 

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit 
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com 
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to 
friam-requ...@redfish.com 

You can reach the person managing the list at 
friam-ow...@redfish.com 

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific 
than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." 

Today's Topics: 

   1. How do these things WORK? (Nicholas  Thompson) 
   2. notice the multiple vortices (Nicholas  Thompson) 
   3. Re: off topic., but still (Mohammed El-Beltagy) 

___ 
Friam mailing list 
Friam@redfish.com 
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com 

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[FRIAM] Terrorosity and it's Fruits

[Steve Smith]

Mohammed -

I want to second Peggy's thanks for your thoughts and would like to add 
the following to hers:


I agree with Peggy on most points.  Terrorism is always horrific (it is 
designed to be so) and we should seek to avoid provoking it and prevent 
it's occurrence and mitigate it's effects as best we can.   The 
apprehension (by death) of Osama bin Laden was perhaps a neccesary act 
but as your poem (and Peggy's response) suggests, we should use this 
moment to reflect on our own part in having created the monster we 
finally destroyed, and in how we are surely continuing to create the 
conditions that lead to all this in the first place.


Where I might diverge from Peggy's description is in the implication 
that we are "becoming" more predatory.  I do believe that in our greed 
and fear we continue to develop more *leverage* for ourselves, economic, 
military, even popular culture.   And thereby we become more *capable 
predators* than ever.  But I think the fundamental problem is that we 
have always been predatory...


By *we*, I am not sure if I mean "the United States of America", "the 
West", "Industrialized Nations", "All Nations", "all of Humanity" even 
"Primates" or "Sentient Creatures" or what...   certainly the last US 
administration was more hawkish and empire driven than we have seen in a 
while and arguably it was in anticipation and in reaction to that more 
predatory posture that the 9/11 attacks happened, but Bush and Co. were 
standing on the shoulders of giants.  They did not invent predation, 
they merely amped it up, cashed in on it.  As sick as it sounds, they 
may have done us a favor by exposing our own nature to us in such a 
blunt manner.


 The US is a product of the Imperial Powers in Europe during the age of 
discovery, colonization and empire.   With the whole north American 
continent (and it's indigenous peoples) to conquer, and several european 
powers (Britain, Spain, France) to try to expel, we did not focus on the 
rest of the world so much until the 20th century, with WWI and WWII 
giving us the excuse or the reason to establish a global military and 
industrial presence.  The cold war was either a continuation or a result 
of that.


The industrialized world's thirst for petroleum caused us to meddle a 
great deal in the middle east and north Africa...   and we, who became 
the mightiest economic and military power amongst the industrialized 
world, became dominant players in that meddling.   Our predatory 
behaviour in this regard is more like that of the Hudson Bay Company or 
the East India Company than the conquistadors of Spain in the new world 
gathering gold and souls or the European Crusaders retaking their "holy 
lands".   But it is predatory nonetheless, and every one of us depends 
on that predation for our high standard of living.


We have allowed, no encouraged, and I fear even supported overtly and 
covertly via our intelligence and military resources, the expansion of a 
global network of industries and businesses as their own empire.   
Petroleum is the obvious commodity, but we have done the same with other 
natural resources (minerals, precious metals and gems, timber, even 
agriculture and human labor).


What can we do?  Can the Lion lay down with the Lamb?  Is there in fact 
a Lamb, or just Cats of many sizes and stripe?  My world is split into 
two very distinct camps:  1) Those who believe it is our right, our 
destiny, a necessity to be not just predators, but at the pinnacle of 
the predatory chain; and  2) those who have no overt wish to be a 
predator nor to suffer predation in their name but seem unaware of their 
place, their role in the chain.


What I don't see enough of is the latter group understanding that they 
(WE) directly benefit (and suffer) from that predation and it is 
incumbent on us to find better ways of living in this world.   I was a 
vegetarian for 17 years roughly because I did not wish to be part of the 
system of animal cruelty and abuse that our meat industry had become 
(was by it's very nature?).  I was raised among simple people who mostly 
ate meat from animals that they hunted or raised and slaughtered 
themselves.   Those cruel realities were something I accepted but never 
became numb to, which made the awareness of the meat industry that much 
more poignant.  If killing, gutting, dismembering and then eating an 
animal seems cruel, then doesn't hiring that out to people who have 
become so numbed to the process (or were self-selected for that numbness 
or even morbid fascination) that they don't notice nor care about the 
suffering, compound the cruelty?   I found few amongst my vegetarian and 
non-vegetarian friends who understood my stance.   To most of the 
former, any killing of an animal was unthinkable (though cute ones even 
moreso than the ugly), and to most of the latter, it was a simple matter 
of "don't-ask, don't tell"... with only a few seeming to revel in the 
predation directly and v

Re: [FRIAM] vol 95, issue 97

[Russell Gonnering]

With all due respect, tell that to the thousands of innocent Israeli civilians who have been butchered over the last 60 years for the crime of existing.  The intentional targeting of civilians as a matter of policy  is reprehensible, and attempting to excuse it with moral equivalence arguments  is one of the reasons it continues.  I frankly do not understand why it is so difficult  to just condemn barbaric actions without somehow excusing them, while protesting that one is of course not "really" excusing them.Bin Laden's desire to incinerate almost 3000 Americans on 9/11 was our fault only in so far as we stood by the right of Israel to exist. At Camp David in 2000 and again in January 2001, Ehud Barak  offered virtually all of the land requested for a two-state solution.  It was rejected by Arafat.  This is not about achieving a just solution in the Mideast.  It is about destroying Jews and Israel.I keep hearing that we went to "war" (or is it now "kinetic military action'?) for oil.  Yet we get none of the oil from Iraq, none of the oil from Libya.Just what, factually speaking, is our long history of our extremely warlike and predatory actions?  In the last 70 years: What countries have we annexed?  What natural resources have we appropriated as our own?  What factories from Japan and Germany did we loot and bring to the US?  Oh, wait, we rebuilt those countries following WWII.   What countries did we bring to their knees by withholding food?  North Korea?  No, we send them food.I joined this forum hoping it would be a platform to discuss complexity, a subject that has profound implications in the area of my expertise, the formulation of healthcare policy and delivery of healthcare.  Instead, I find it a spot that is filled with anything but complexity.  Please take me off the list.  It has no utility for me.  The inside jokes and self-congratulatory messages and the politics is frankly quite a bore.  Nothing complex here!   Enjoy yourselves.Russ Gonnering Russell Gonnering, MD, MMM, FACS, CPHQrsgonneri...@mac.comwww.emergenthealth.netOn May 6, 2011, at 1:16 PM, peggy miller wrote:In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin Laden's death:Thank you for submitting those.Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and, as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions -- and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war, rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful, scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems. And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial, warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help us move toward good answers to international problems.
so thanks.Peggy Miller-- Peggy Miller, owner/OEO 
Highland Windswix.com/peggymiller/highlandwindsShop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell)
Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings
406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm   Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listservMeets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's Collegelectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[FRIAM] vol 95, issue 97

[peggy miller]

In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin
Laden's death:
Thank you for submitting those.

Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and,
as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me
choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the
response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face
some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the
original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of
that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions --
and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred
for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always
wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited
any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war,
rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are
addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become
extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful,
scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems.
And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I
think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial,
warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our
international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help
us move toward good answers to international problems.

so thanks.
Peggy Miller



-- 
Peggy Miller, owner/OEO
Highland Winds
wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds
Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell)
Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings
406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm
   Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] off topic....., but still

[Mohammed El-Beltagy]

A few rhyming lines that came to mind after hearing about OBL's killing.

On the death of a terroristy

No glory in slaying a monster you made
No joy! The debt of injustice must be paid!
What justice and honor and values you state?
Feed anger with hate, but will hatred abate?
Why celebrate? Why smile and congratulate?
Enjoy the night...
But when you wakeup, I beg you: remember before it is too late!

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[FRIAM] notice the multiple vortices

[Nicholas Thompson]

Sorry about the commercial at the beginning.  There's a skip button.  

 

Again,  imagine you had a very strong suction device.  Could you produce
something like this in smaller scale? Why would it be narrower at the bottom
than the top?  

 

n

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org  

 

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[FRIAM] How do these things WORK?

[Nicholas Thompson]

How does the momentum get carried down to the ground so coherently?

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org  

 

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org