Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
Group membership is not necessarily self-selecting. Perceiving group identity, deciding to be part of the group, working to be accepted into the group, and having the group 'accept' a member are different activities, and of course there are multiple groups with competing, occasionally dynamic membership criteria and membership itself is fuzzy. On 10/27/11 8:32 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote: Gillian, H tryingto put my evolutionary psychology hat on, and feeling like I am not doing it quite as well as I should Humans ARE "programed" to do things for the good of their groups. The question then is: How do we get people to feel as if they are part of a group? and How do we get people to expand the size of the group they feel they are part of? One subsection of those questions, a small, but not insignificant part, is wondering: How do we get advantaged people to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group? Ultimately, if we had the right knowledge, this would be a perfect problem to tackle with agent based modeling. If we knew what types of experiences people needed to feel as if they were part of a group, and we knew what types of experiences were needed to expand felt-group size, then we start designing various worlds along various principles to see which produce the best outcome. The complexity will be too high to solve the problem any other way. Alas... what are the factors? Eric On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 05:17 PM, *Gillian Densmore * wrote: Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels. Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense. Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on $9.00 an hour? even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch. Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending on how it's implimented. The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all ) citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some net benifits. I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the quality of life for all? Just as a here in the comunity example: I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents) makes for a stronger whole. Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources twards things that achieve that goal? just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many. . On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray wrote: > Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear > overview by James Traverse: > > http://www.beingyoga.com/ > > [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ] > > Know Thyself > > Be a Light unto Yourself > > "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon > > "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse > > "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein > > Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all > conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your > true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to > thinking. Awareness is the means and the end. > > There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening > yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally > generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall > away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of > understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root > of mistaken identity and separation. > > "You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. > You must learn to see the world anew." ~ Albert Einstein > > The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as > false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated > problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that > sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the > impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains > is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function > without distortion. > > Enlightenment is a ma
Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
The issue may not be "how to get the advantaged to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group". The issue is that they do that by failing to see that anyone is disadvantaged. On 10/27/11 8:32 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES wrote: Gillian, H tryingto put my evolutionary psychology hat on, and feeling like I am not doing it quite as well as I should Humans ARE "programed" to do things for the good of their groups. The question then is: How do we get people to feel as if they are part of a group? and How do we get people to expand the size of the group they feel they are part of? One subsection of those questions, a small, but not insignificant part, is wondering: How do we get advantaged people to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group? Ultimately, if we had the right knowledge, this would be a perfect problem to tackle with agent based modeling. If we knew what types of experiences people needed to feel as if they were part of a group, and we knew what types of experiences were needed to expand felt-group size, then we start designing various worlds along various principles to see which produce the best outcome. The complexity will be too high to solve the problem any other way. Alas... what are the factors? Eric On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 05:17 PM, *Gillian Densmore * wrote: Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels. Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense. Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on $9.00 an hour? even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch. Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending on how it's implimented. The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all ) citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some net benifits. I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the quality of life for all? Just as a here in the comunity example: I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents) makes for a stronger whole. Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources twards things that achieve that goal? just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many. . On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray wrote: > Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear > overview by James Traverse: > > http://www.beingyoga.com/ > > [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ] > > Know Thyself > > Be a Light unto Yourself > > "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon > > "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse > > "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein > > Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all > conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your > true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to > thinking. Awareness is the means and the end. > > There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening > yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally > generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall > away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of > understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root > of mistaken identity and separation. > > "You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. > You must learn to see the world anew." ~ Albert Einstein > > The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as > false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated > problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that > sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the > impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains > is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function > without distortion. > > Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is > no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away > through discrimination and there is
Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
I think these are the right questions, Eric. Given that people can be progroup and anti group and given that groups can be benign and vicious, how do we promote benign groupness. N From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of ERIC P. CHARLES Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 8:32 PM To: Gillian Densmore Cc: Anne Rowland; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc. Gillian, H trying to put my evolutionary psychology hat on, and feeling like I am not doing it quite as well as I should Humans ARE "programed" to do things for the good of their groups. The question then is: How do we get people to feel as if they are part of a group? and How do we get people to expand the size of the group they feel they are part of? One subsection of those questions, a small, but not insignificant part, is wondering: How do we get advantaged people to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group? Ultimately, if we had the right knowledge, this would be a perfect problem to tackle with agent based modeling. If we knew what types of experiences people needed to feel as if they were part of a group, and we knew what types of experiences were needed to expand felt-group size, then we start designing various worlds along various principles to see which produce the best outcome. The complexity will be too high to solve the problem any other way. Alas... what are the factors? Eric On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 05:17 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote: Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels. Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense. Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on $9.00 an hour? even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch. Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending on how it's implimented. The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all ) citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some net benifits. I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the quality of life for all? Just as a here in the comunity example: I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents) makes for a stronger whole. Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources twards things that achieve that goal? just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many. . On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray wrote: > Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear > overview by James Traverse: > > http://www.beingyoga.com/ > > [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ] > > Know Thyself > > Be a Light unto Yourself > > "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon > > "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse > > "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein > > Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all > conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your > true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to > thinking. Awareness is the means and the end. > > There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening > yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally > generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall > away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of > understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root > of mistaken identity and separation. > > “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. > You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein > > The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as > false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated > problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that > sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the > impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains > is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function > without distortion. > > Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is > no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away > through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true > nature. > > Enli
Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
Gillian, H trying to put my evolutionary psychology hat on, and feeling like I am not doing it quite as well as I should Humans ARE "programed" to do things for the good of their groups. The question then is: How do we get people to feel as if they are part of a group? and How do we get people to expand the size of the group they feel they are part of? One subsection of those questions, a small, but not insignificant part, is wondering: How do we get advantaged people to include the disadvantaged as part of 'their' group? Ultimately, if we had the right knowledge, this would be a perfect problem to tackle with agent based modeling. If we knew what types of experiences people needed to feel as if they were part of a group, and we knew what types of experiences were needed to expand felt-group size, then we start designing various worlds along various principles to see which produce the best outcome. The complexity will be too high to solve the problem any other way. Alas... what are the factors? Eric On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 05:17 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote: > > Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels. >Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense. >Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on >$9.00 an hour? >even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch. >Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending >on how it's implimented. >The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all ) >citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some >net benifits. >I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as >humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the >quality of life for all? >Just as a here in the comunity example: >I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a >productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius >forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment >at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot >of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by >X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better >good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as >Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents) >makes for a stronger whole. >Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources >twards things that achieve that goal? >just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many. >. > > >On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray wrote: >> Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear >> overview by James Traverse: >> >> http://www.beingyoga.com/ >> >> [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ] >> >> Know Thyself >> >> Be a Light unto Yourself >> >> "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon >> >> "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse >> >> "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein >> >> Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all >> conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your >> true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to >> thinking. Awareness is the means and the end. >> >> There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening >> yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally >> generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall >> away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of >> understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root >> of mistaken identity and separation. >> >> “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. >> You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein >> >> The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as >> false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated >> problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that >> sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the >> impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains >> is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function >> without distortion. >> >> Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is >> no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away >> through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true >> nature. >> >> Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening >> the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does! >> >> "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you >> understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse >> >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, uns
Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
Hi "360 a week (before tax). Ouch." is roughly what an average productive worker (and his large extended family) in a LDC survives on for a YEAR. It seems to me that a bunch of very rich nations led by the USA have gotten together and decided to "interfere" (citing human rights etc.) in the affairs of other nations to control (and tremendously profit from) the supply of common resources like OIL and GAS, thereby eventually causing your 99% (most of whom live way beyond their means anyway in a credit based bubble economy) to come onto the streets (or the internet). Philip K Dick anticipated this 60 years ago and a good solution would be to have collective amnesia over all the money (and carbon credits) Americans owe the rest of the world. Sarbajit On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 2:47 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote: > Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some > levels. > Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense. > Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on > $9.00 an hour? > even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch. > Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending > on how it's implimented. > The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all ) > citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some > net benifits. > I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as > humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the > quality of life for all? > Just as a here in the comunity example: > I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a > productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius > forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment > at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot > of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by > X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better > good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as > Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents) > makes for a stronger whole. > Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources > twards things that achieve that goal? > just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
Interesting discution going on here. Feeling like one of the 99% on some levels. Rich Muray's proposed list on some levels makes sense. Higher min wage for example how are you suposed to actually live on $9.00 an hour? even full time that's only 360 a week (before tax). Ouch. Another one that stuck out was free health care- could work. Depending on how it's implimented. The general idea of more stuff taken for baseline for more (or all ) citizens and increasing the quality of life would seem to provide some net benifits. I think Nick asked how it gets funded wich might realy be asking: as humans are we willing to pool together a pot of money to increase the quality of life for all? Just as a here in the comunity example: I'm going to school to (theoreticly) increase my odds of being a productive citizen by X%. Should one of the applications and varius forms of asistance pan out I have a net X% extra chance of employment at the end of the week I'd rather my hard earned money going to a pot of money that helps raise quality of life for my self and others by X%. Theoreticly humans are programed to work together twards a better good. At some point of year N things get jaded or complicated and as Agents we loose sight that a healthy comunity of N people(or agents) makes for a stronger whole. Wouldn't it therefore be better to invest y sources of rescources twards things that achieve that goal? just my as a 0.2c as a agent among many. . On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Rich Murray wrote: > Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear > overview by James Traverse: > > http://www.beingyoga.com/ > > [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ] > > Know Thyself > > Be a Light unto Yourself > > "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon > > "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse > > "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein > > Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all > conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your > true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to > thinking. Awareness is the means and the end. > > There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening > yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally > generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall > away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of > understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root > of mistaken identity and separation. > > “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. > You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein > > The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as > false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated > problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that > sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the > impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains > is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function > without distortion. > > Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is > no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away > through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true > nature. > > Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening > the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does! > > "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you > understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] 99%, occupyWallStreet, Santa Fe, etc.
Since my remarks were perhaps tersely shocking, here is a clear overview by James Traverse: http://www.beingyoga.com/ [ For more, search Google "nonduality"... ] Know Thyself Be a Light unto Yourself "Form is Seeing and Seeing is Being." ~ Atmananda Krishna Menon "Being is Seeing and Seeing is Doing" ~ James Traverse "Liberation is from the person, not for the person" ~ Jean Klein Mistaken identity, the wrong turning of the mind, is the cause of all conflict and discord. The solution is the living understanding of your true nature which is not thought based knowledge as it is prior to thinking. Awareness is the means and the end. There is nothing to become since Being Awareness is already happening yet there is a returning to innocence knowingly as the false mentally generated knowledge of mistaken identity is seen and allowed to fall away. This Living Awareness as your true nature is the light of understanding that dispels the darkness of ignorance that is the root of mistaken identity and separation. “You cannot solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it. You must learn to see the world anew.” ~ Albert Einstein The problem of mistaken identity is a problem of self-knowledge as false knowledge of your true nature. It is a mentally generated problem that is resolved by Awareness as the primal intelligence that sees the false as false and no longer supports it. In this way the impostor of mistaken identity dies through starvation - what remains is pure Awareness wherein all of your faculties are free to function without distortion. Enlightenment is a matter of discernment, not evolution. Thus there is no becoming enlightened; instead the veil of ignorance falls away through discrimination and there is seeing in-the-light of your true nature. Enlightened Being - Being is happening - Breathing is happening the Agent is the Actor - Love is what it does! "What nature makes you do instinctively you can optimise when you understand the law governing the process." ~ James Traverse FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
