Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

[Nick Thompson]

All, 

 

Here is your assignment for tomorrow.  

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations

 

There will be a quiz:  What is the difference between a circular explanation 
and a recursive one.  What is the key dimension that determines whether an 
explanation is viciously circular?   Is the virtuus dormitiva viciously 
circular? Why?  Why not?  

 

Nick 

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

  
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:35 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

 

I apologize, Glen.  Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia".

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

 

On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly"  > wrote:

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?  And what is this 
large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a 
positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

wimber...@gmail.com   wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu 
 
Phone:  (505) 995-8715    Cell:  (505) 670-9918 
 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com 
 ] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders


I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating 
phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of 
> entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality 
> disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of 
> entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong 
with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we 
might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man 
is to fill the role of President.  But we should be careful not to abandon our 
own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

[Frank Wimberly]

About 30 years ago there was a long article in the New Yorker about
problems of mental health diagnosis and treatment.  It was based on a real
patient who was given the fictitious name of Sylvia Frumpkin.  The
consensus diagnosis for her was schizophrenia but one Asian Indian resident
said her diagnosis was bipolar disorder.  When he was asked why not
scizophrenia he said that it was because there was no evidence of severe
delusions.  His colleagues asked about the fact that she said she was
married to Mickey Mouse.  His reply was, "Who's that?". The point was that
cultural differences between Dr. and patient can cause communication
problems.


Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 18, 2017 7:58 PM, "gepr"  wrote:

>
>
> No worries. The thing is, though, with cancer and pneumonia we do have
> well evidenced, reproducible, mechanistic hypotheses. That makes those
> hypotheses way more robust and trustworthy than personality disorders. So
> while there may be some deeply embedded circular reasoning in any
> diagnosis, the circular reasoning in purely phenomenal diagnoses is much
> more obvious.
>
> Granted, I'm a big fan of parallax, as I've yapped about here before.
> When a mechanism is unavailable, we can approach it through circumscribing
> a small region of behavior space with many purely phenomenal models, which
> is why these diagnoses need multiple attributes. But there's still no
> hiding from the circularity.
>
> Also note that I regularly defend circular reasoning ala Robert​ Rosen,
> autopoiesis, non-well-founded sets, etc. But I wouldn't entertain a
> circular justification if there were good reasons to believe a well-founded
> explanation was out there somewhere.
>
>
> On January 18, 2017 5:35:24 PM PST, Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
> >I apologize, Glen.  Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia".
> >
> >Frank Wimberly
> >Phone (505) 670-9918
> >
> >On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly"  wrote:
> >
> >> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?  And
> >what is
> >> this large white area on his chest x-ray?
> >>
> >> He has lung cancer.
> >>
> >> How do you know?
> >>
> >> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has
> >a
> >> positive chest x-ray.
>
> >> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a
> >sense
> >> of entitlement?
> >> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic
> >personality
> >> disorder.
> >> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> >> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense
> >of
> >> entitlement.
>
> --
> ⛧glen⛧
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

[gepr]

No worries. The thing is, though, with cancer and pneumonia we do have well 
evidenced, reproducible, mechanistic hypotheses. That makes those hypotheses 
way more robust and trustworthy than personality disorders. So while there may 
be some deeply embedded circular reasoning in any diagnosis, the circular 
reasoning in purely phenomenal diagnoses is much more obvious.

Granted, I'm a big fan of parallax, as I've yapped about here before.  When a 
mechanism is unavailable, we can approach it through circumscribing a small 
region of behavior space with many purely phenomenal models, which is why these 
diagnoses need multiple attributes. But there's still no hiding from the 
circularity.

Also note that I regularly defend circular reasoning ala Robert​ Rosen, 
autopoiesis, non-well-founded sets, etc. But I wouldn't entertain a circular 
justification if there were good reasons to believe a well-founded explanation 
was out there somewhere.


On January 18, 2017 5:35:24 PM PST, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>I apologize, Glen.  Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia".
>
>Frank Wimberly
>Phone (505) 670-9918
>
>On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly"  wrote:
>
>> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?  And
>what is
>> this large white area on his chest x-ray?
>>
>> He has lung cancer.
>>
>> How do you know?
>>
>> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has
>a
>> positive chest x-ray.

>> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a
>sense
>> of entitlement?
>> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic
>personality
>> disorder.
>> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
>> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense
>of
>> entitlement.

-- 
⛧glen⛧


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Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

[Frank Wimberly]

I apologize, Glen.  Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia".

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly"  wrote:

> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?  And what is
> this large white area on his chest x-ray?
>
> He has lung cancer.
>
> How do you know?
>
> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a
> positive chest x-ray.
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu
> Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
>
>
> I found this opinion refreshing:
>
> Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect
>
> http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-
> personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/
>
> I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating
> phenomenology with ontology:
>
> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense
> of entitlement?
> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality
> disorder.
> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of
> entitlement.
>
> But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's
> wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever
> tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly
> unable the man is to fill the role of President.  But we should be careful
> not to abandon our own principles in the process.
>
> --
> ☣ glen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

[Frank Wimberly]

Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?  And what is this 
large white area on his chest x-ray?

He has lung cancer.

How do you know?

Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a 
positive chest x-ray.

Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505

wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu
Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders


I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating 
phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of 
> entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality 
> disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of 
> entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong 
with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we 
might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man 
is to fill the role of President.  But we should be careful not to abandon our 
own principles in the process.

--
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe 
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Cold War Jitters Resurface as U.S. Marines Arrive in Norway - The New York Times

[Vladimyr Burachynsky]

The New York Times article seems to conflate geography like a party game, 
Twister. It starts in Norway switches to Sweden, Finland, Lithuania Kalingrad 
and keeps returning to fear and Russia.

They should have provided a map to keep track of the game pieces.

 

The Norwegians share an interest in smuggling Atlantic Salmon fillets to 
Muscovites who smoke it.

Russians smuggle bicycles to Norway pedal-powered by Syrian refugees.

The Lithuanians smuggle cigarettes from Russia. The Russians smuggle wild 
Mushrooms (Boletus edulis) and furs  to Europe

The Russians also used to smuggle High Grade Birch Plywood through Finland and 
on to the entire world.

The Russians used to smuggle mammoth Ivory to Alaska. Canada smuggled Grass to 
the USA.

The Polish Merchant Marine Ships used to smuggle Vodka (Spiritus) into Canada.

And all Baltic States  smuggle Amber and Herrings.

The Ukrainians smuggle well heeled Syrians from Russia to Slovakia flying 
Russian Helicopters at tree top heights through the Carpathian Mts.

They used to smuggle diamonds out of and Moldavian Guns into , Africa.

Well if America needs to train soldiers in Arctic conditions what was wrong 
with Alaska or North Dakota.

Perhaps militarism is bad for all smugglers. Seems sanctions only served 
smugglers.

vib.

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: January-17-17 11:15 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group; Kim Sorvig
Subject: [FRIAM] Cold War Jitters Resurface as U.S. Marines Arrive in Norway - 
The New York Times

 

Does this make any sense? Are Norwegians concerned about a Russian invasion? 
Sounds nuts.

​​

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/16/world/europe/norway-us-russia-marines.html

 

​Poland recently​ received US military folks too:

  
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/world/europe/as-trump-reaches-toward-putin-us-troops-arrive-in-poland.html

 

It seems to be NATO sponsored but why US troops?

 

I'm a bit spooked.

 

​   -- Owen​

 


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

[glen ☣]

I found this opinion refreshing:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/

I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating 
phenomenology with ontology:

> Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of 
> entitlement?
> Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality 
> disorder.
> Wife: How do you know he has this illness?
> Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of 
> entitlement.

But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong 
with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we 
might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man 
is to fill the role of President.  But we should be careful not to abandon our 
own principles in the process.

-- 
☣ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders

[Barry MacKichan]

“You probably think this song is about you”

  — Carly Simon

--Barry


On 17 Jan 2017, at 15:28, Nick Thompson wrote:


Hi, Frank,



Isn’t that an example of itself?



“This book was written about me”.



Nick



Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

  
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/




From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank 
Wimberly

Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 


Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders



Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of 
life.  Hence the infantile symptomatology.  But it can be aggravated 
during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things


Jochen mentions.  Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the 
pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self".  It is not about 
self analysis.




It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. 
 It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic 
libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling 
that they have the disorder.




Frank







Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918



On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden"  > 
wrote:


If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent 
to the NYMA.  I.e., WHY did his father send him there ?


-J



On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:

In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted 
Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the 
audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic 
personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe 
this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what 
cost? It starts at 2:40


https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I



I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a 
little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA 
(New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values 
discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 
siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this 
impersonal and strict institution.


http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1

I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating 
experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and 
egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his 
personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 
year old that wants to be loved.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html



They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little 
attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his 
parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or 
pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he 
wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. 
Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in 
childhood?




-J.








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--
Joe



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Re: [FRIAM] Trump and the nuclear "football"

[Alfredo Covaleda Vélez]

>From Aljazeera
Small hands big missiles: Trump's dangerous adolescence
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/01/small-hands-big-missiles-trump-dangerous-adolescence-170109061803090.html?utm_source=Al+Jazeera+English+Newsletter+%7C+Weekly_campaign=86f19af83c-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_15_medium=email_term=0_e427298a68-86f19af83c-224147101

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Hi, everybody,
>
>
>
> At Friday’s gathering, one of the things we discussed was that Trump’s
> accession, given his impulsiveness, could easily lead to a nuclear war.
> The readiness level of the US nuclear “deterrent” currently allows 4
> minutes between determining that an enemy attack is in progress and US
> launch.  Because of the submarine fleet, this level of hair-trigger
> readiness is totally unnecessary, even if one buys into all the assumptions
> of US nuclear doctrine.
>
>
>
> I am frightened for myself, my family, and grandchildren.  I think Trump
> is crazy enough to imagine a future in which he and his “unbelievably
> beautiful” women live out a life of luxury in a bunker somewhere, while the
> rest of us … well, you know, “Sacrifices had to be made to preserve our way
> of life”.  Obama has the power increase the threshold to hours or even days
> before leaving office.  I had understood that there was a concerted effort
> to get him to do so, but when I went to the net to find it, I could not.
> To my surprise,  the Union of Concerned Scientists seems to be totally
> mellow about the situation, suggesting only that Obama negotiate away some
> of our backup nukes before his term expires, leaving everything else mostly
> in place.
>
>
>
> Are any of you aware of such an effort?  Can you provide me with details?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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