Re: [FRIAM] Why depth/thickness matters

2017-02-09 Thread Nick Thompson 
Glen, 

 

Sorry, I missed this earlier in the day. 

 

See larding below. 

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 12:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why depth/thickness matters

 

 

The way you worded this confuses me.  Did you mean "truth is a correspondence 
between"?  Or did you mean something like "truth can be corresponded with"?  I 
typically use the word "truth" to mean the outside, alone, not a map between 
the outside and inside.  The map between them would be the grounding.  Granted, 
Hoffman et al's use of the label "truth" to mean a particular strategy was more 
like the map.

[NST==>Uh…. The dualist account, a thought is a true thought when it matches 
the state of affairs outside of thought.  <==nst] 

 

But if you did mean to talk specifically about the inside ⇔ outside map, then 
you're saying that neither Holt nor Peirce would accept Rosen's assumption of 
his modeling relation (that inference ≈ causality).  That's interesting.  
Another thread from Eric's paper follows from his #2 highlight from New 
Realism: "Relations are real, and hence detectable".  This also evoked Rosen's 
evocation of Nicolas Rashevsky and relational biology (cf:  
 
https://ahlouie.com/relational-biology/ "Relational biology, on the other hand, 
keeps the organization and throws away the matter; function dictates structure, 
whence material aspects are entailed.").

 

It's entirely reasonable to think of edges vs vertices in a graph as perfect 
duals, to study one is to study the other.  But what Eric seemed to be saying 
was that relations were elevated to the same status as the organisms, not a 
flip-flop like we think of as duals.  So studying just the organisms or just 
the relations would be inadequate.

[NST==>I confess I have never understood what Friammers mean when they start 
talking about “duals”.  I would say only that on my understanding of the new 
realism,  everything real consists of matter AND ITS RELATIONS.  Thus, to be 
conscious, is to stand in relation; to be conscious of another’s consciousness 
is to stand in relation to that standing in relation.  And so forth.  Eric and 
I struggled with this in a review 

  of a book by James Laird which a group of FRIAMMERS read together a few years 
back.  Our solution was a kind of hierarchical materialism in which everything 
is material relations among material relations, ad infinitum.  Tortured.  
<==nst] 

 

Not sure where eric has disappeared to.   Hope to hear from him soon  

 

Nick 

 

 

On 02/08/2017 08:26 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

> Note that neither Holt, nor his mentor’s mentor, Peirce, would endorse the 
> idea that truth is a correspondence between a mental representation and a 
> world outside human experience that it represents, Peirce because human 
> experience is all we got, and Holt because the outside world is all we got.  

 

--

☣ glen

 



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Re: [FRIAM] more fun with AI

2017-02-09 Thread Steven A Smith 
Very exciting... I'll have to read deeper into this...   I think we are 
on the verge of another punctuation in our equilibrium (of Sci/Tech 
advances)...




On 2/9/17 3:20 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
Okay, this one got published in Science today, 
https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.02318, they solve an n-body quantum wave 
function with artificial neural nets, they earned two separate 
commentary articles:


The challenge posed by the many-body problem in quantum physics
originates from the difficulty of describing the non-trivial
correlations encoded in the exponential complexity of the
many-body wave function. Here we demonstrate that systematic
machine learning of the wave function can reduce this complexity
to a tractable computational form, for some notable cases of
physical interest. We introduce a variational representation of
quantum states based on artificial neural networks with variable
number of hidden neurons. A reinforcement-learning scheme is then
demonstrated, capable of either finding the ground-state or
describing the unitary time evolution of complex interacting
quantum systems. We show that this approach achieves very high
accuracy in the description of equilibrium and dynamical
properties of prototypical interacting spins models in both one
and two dimensions, thus offering a new powerful tool to solve the
quantum many-body problem.

This is getting sort of close to home, now, we're replacing cleverly 
contrived numerical methods for exotic quantum physics with generic 
machine learning algorithms.


-- rec --




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Re: [FRIAM] Why depth/thickness matters

2017-02-09 Thread Eric Charles 
Late to the party, but still lots to chew on!

It is unfortunate that everyone wants to throw the
simulation/representation/modeling wrench into the middle of what might
otherwise be a very sensible story about about dynamic systems. (And if you
like the dynamic systems side of things, Tony Chemero's "Radical Embodied
Cognitive Science" does an excellent job explaining why "representation"
talk ads nothing to serious models of perception-action.)

While I digest, the posts above, and try to make a more focused response, I
can offer a contrasting view of how I think evolutionary theories of
perception should look (attached, forthcoming, pending miner revision).

Best,
Eric



---
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician
U.S. Marine Corps


On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 2:26 PM, glen ☣  wrote:

>
> The way you worded this confuses me.  Did you mean "truth is a
> correspondence between"?  Or did you mean something like "truth can be
> corresponded with"?  I typically use the word "truth" to mean the outside,
> alone, not a map between the outside and inside.  The map between them
> would be the grounding.  Granted, Hoffman et al's use of the label "truth"
> to mean a particular strategy was more like the map.
>
> But if you did mean to talk specifically about the inside ⇔ outside map,
> then you're saying that neither Holt nor Peirce would accept Rosen's
> assumption of his modeling relation (that inference ≈ causality).  That's
> interesting.  Another thread from Eric's paper follows from his #2
> highlight from New Realism: "Relations are real, and hence detectable".
> This also evoked Rosen's evocation of Nicolas Rashevsky and relational
> biology (cf: https://ahlouie.com/relational-biology/ "Relational biology,
> on the other hand, keeps the organization and throws away the matter;
> function dictates structure, whence material aspects are entailed.").
>
> It's entirely reasonable to think of edges vs vertices in a graph as
> perfect duals, to study one is to study the other.  But what Eric seemed to
> be saying was that relations were elevated to the same status as the
> organisms, not a flip-flop like we think of as duals.  So studying just the
> organisms or just the relations would be inadequate.
>
>
> On 02/08/2017 08:26 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> > Note that neither Holt, nor his mentor’s mentor, Peirce, would endorse
> the idea that truth is a correspondence between a mental representation and
> a world outside human experience that it represents, Peirce because human
> experience is all we got, and Holt because the outside world is all we got.
>
> --
> ☣ glen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>


An evolutionary theory of perception6.docx
Description: MS-Word 2007 document

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Re: [FRIAM] more fun with AI

2017-02-09 Thread Russell Standish 
On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 05:20:58PM -0500, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> Okay, this one got published in Science today,
> https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.02318, they solve an n-body quantum wave
> function with artificial neural nets, they earned two separate commentary
> articles:
> 

How interesting! I have downloaded this for later perusal. I have long
thought there is some intimate connection between the structure of
brains and the projection operator. If they're able to determine the
ground state from a n-body quantum state efficiently using a
brain-like structure, then this strongly hints at that
connection. Although, I'm sure they don't say so in the article, I
couldn't imagine Science publishing such airy-fairy stuff.


Cheers
-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au



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[FRIAM] more fun with AI

2017-02-09 Thread Roger Critchlow 
Okay, this one got published in Science today,
https://arxiv.org/abs/1606.02318, they solve an n-body quantum wave
function with artificial neural nets, they earned two separate commentary
articles:

The challenge posed by the many-body problem in quantum physics originates
from the difficulty of describing the non-trivial correlations encoded in
the exponential complexity of the many-body wave function. Here we
demonstrate that systematic machine learning of the wave function can
reduce this complexity to a tractable computational form, for some notable
cases of physical interest. We introduce a variational representation of
quantum states based on artificial neural networks with variable number of
hidden neurons. A reinforcement-learning scheme is then demonstrated,
capable of either finding the ground-state or describing the unitary time
evolution of complex interacting quantum systems. We show that this
approach achieves very high accuracy in the description of equilibrium and
dynamical properties of prototypical interacting spins models in both one
and two dimensions, thus offering a new powerful tool to solve the quantum
many-body problem.

This is getting sort of close to home, now, we're replacing cleverly
contrived numerical methods for exotic quantum physics with generic machine
learning algorithms.

-- rec --

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Re: [FRIAM] Why depth/thickness matters

2017-02-09 Thread glen ☣ 

The way you worded this confuses me.  Did you mean "truth is a correspondence 
between"?  Or did you mean something like "truth can be corresponded with"?  I 
typically use the word "truth" to mean the outside, alone, not a map between 
the outside and inside.  The map between them would be the grounding.  Granted, 
Hoffman et al's use of the label "truth" to mean a particular strategy was more 
like the map.

But if you did mean to talk specifically about the inside ⇔ outside map, then 
you're saying that neither Holt nor Peirce would accept Rosen's assumption of 
his modeling relation (that inference ≈ causality).  That's interesting.  
Another thread from Eric's paper follows from his #2 highlight from New 
Realism: "Relations are real, and hence detectable".  This also evoked Rosen's 
evocation of Nicolas Rashevsky and relational biology (cf: 
https://ahlouie.com/relational-biology/ "Relational biology, on the other hand, 
keeps the organization and throws away the matter; function dictates structure, 
whence material aspects are entailed.").

It's entirely reasonable to think of edges vs vertices in a graph as perfect 
duals, to study one is to study the other.  But what Eric seemed to be saying 
was that relations were elevated to the same status as the organisms, not a 
flip-flop like we think of as duals.  So studying just the organisms or just 
the relations would be inadequate.


On 02/08/2017 08:26 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Note that neither Holt, nor his mentor’s mentor, Peirce, would endorse the 
> idea that truth is a correspondence between a mental representation and a 
> world outside human experience that it represents, Peirce because human 
> experience is all we got, and Holt because the outside world is all we got.  

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Why depth/thickness matters

2017-02-09 Thread glen ☣ 

Thanks for pointing that out.  I found this other article of Eric's more 
helpful:

  The (Old) New Realism: What Holt Has to Offer for Ecological Psychology
  http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12124-008-9075-6

But I've only skimmed them too quickly.  It seems to my impoverished 
understanding that Eric's description of ecological psychology assumes a larger 
dimensionality to the world out there than Hoffman assumes.  I infer from 
phrases like "extracting information from ambient energy arrays that specify 
our surroundings (sometimes referred to as resonating with the structure of the 
arrays)" that the world is fairly rich.  Hoffman's conception seems to suggest 
that there can be a very tiny, perhaps even simple, kernel of the world that 
would exist entirely _without_ the organisms, but that the majority of the 
medium through which the organisms swim is co-constructed by the organisms.

It's a game of "logic, logic, who's got the logic?"  If you place more logic in 
the environment, then the actors will be more likely to find paths to a common 
semantic ground.  But if you place more logic in the actors, then they'll be 
more likely to find meaning in whatever communities they're in (and have been 
in, given structured memory).

If I've read that difference right, the key to Hoffman's "results" that fake 
news will dominate lies in the logic ratio medium:organism.  Perhaps there's 
even a tipping point below which fake news will dominate and above which truth 
will dominate.  And this would allow us to consider the role of technology 
(extended phenotype) like Twitter or even investigative journalism as well as 
deeper concepts like argument from authority.

I tend to think of things like calculators and Google as parts of my brain. 
(Was it Einstein that said "never memorize what you can look up"?)  As we 
delegate our logic out to the medium, perhaps we can preserve the Progressive 
Agenda?  The election of Trump and such might seem to argue against that.  But 
perhaps it's a counter-intuitive result that _because_ we're getting closer to 
the Truth as technology advances, the morons come out of the woodwork in a 
reactionary backlash against the progression?



On 02/08/2017 07:41 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:
> As an alternative to the Evolutionary Psychology perspective bias of this
> paper, Eric Charles may chime in on how Ecological Psychology and the
> Neo-Gibsonians (Michael Turvey et al) would be aligned with your stance as
> they also seek to minimizing the reliance on internal representations of
> "the truth"/reality when explaining perception and action.
> 
> I'd further be interested to think about how Eric's example of the Aikido
> perspective (which Critchlow would appreciate) in his paper could be
> applied to responding to alt-right attacks in contrast to direct
> confrontation:
>   https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44571452_
> Ecological_Psychology_and_Social_Psychology_It_is_Holt_or_Nothing
> 
> Not sure what Holt would say about Rosen's modeling relation.

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] HELPING RESEARCH GATE TO FULFILL ITS PROMISE by Nicholas Simonds Thompson - Research Project on ResearchGate

2017-02-09 Thread glen ☣ 
Even blogs: https://github.com/frankmcsherry/blog

On 02/09/2017 09:10 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> The use of github is brilliant! This way you can version papers, have teams
> work together on the paper, and immediately get "prior art" established. It
> will also appear quickly in searches because github apparently uses search
> optimizations.
> 
> I've run across more than one organization that uses github for meeting
> notes, design documents, code reviews, and naturally code itself.


-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] HELPING RESEARCH GATE TO FULFILL ITS PROMISE by Nicholas Simonds Thompson - Research Project on ResearchGate

2017-02-09 Thread Owen Densmore 
The use of github is brilliant! This way you can version papers, have teams
work together on the paper, and immediately get "prior art" established. It
will also appear quickly in searches because github apparently uses search
optimizations.

I've run across more than one organization that uses github for meeting
notes, design documents, code reviews, and naturally code itself.

   -- Owen

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 10:39 AM, glen ☣  wrote:

>
> Thanks Russ!  I appreciate the integration with github, too.
>
> On 02/08/2017 08:16 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > ResearchGate and Academia are both privately funded and operated. An
> > alternative is Zenodo , run by CERN. It's a paper
> > archive like Archive.org. It doesn't support CVs -- at least at this
> point.
> > They don't seem to have any plan to do so. You may want to check it out.
>
> --
> ☣ glen
>
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe Folks : Recycling Carts

2017-02-09 Thread Owen Densmore 
Tom Johnson mentioned https://nextdoor.com/ a while back so I joined. It's
a neighborhood oriented website and I believe widely available across the
US, possibly globally.

In this case, city agencies use it make announcements. Tom can likely
mention more interesting aspects of the site.

   -- Owen

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Owen,
>
>
>
> Provincial is one thing; unintelligible to someone who lives a half a mile
> down the hill is quite another!
>
>
>
> Can you translate this for me?  Really?  No glass?  And cardboard in two
> places?
>
>
>
> I didn’t understand about the St. Johns Site.  Are we all honorary
> neighbors of St. Johns, or just you.   Do matters become clearer if I sign
> up for the site?
>
>
>
> Nick
>

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