Re: [FRIAM] AI etiquette, Marijuana research

[Gillian Densmore]

Cody, did you read or hear about the aimbot  COD scandal?
https://www.itechpost.com/articles/106309/20210712/undetectable-aimbot-uses-ai-probed-activision-call-duty-facing-massive.htm



On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 3:53 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Hey! Data is a TASbot+Calculator thank you very much😜 🤣🤣.
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 9:38 PM cody dooderson 
> wrote:
>
>> It looks like fiction will never be the same. Here is a list of books
>> written by gpt3, https://lifearchitect.ai/books-by-ai/ .
>> I haven't read any of these.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:39 PM Prof David West 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would not consider Asimov's robots to be "flat and empty," but they
>>> are an anomaly in that regard. They did, after all, invent the Zeroth Law
>>> of Robotics all by themselves.
>>>
>>> davew
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, at 2:18 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> I feel like this is yet another reminder that humans, by and large, lack
>>> imagination.
>>>
>>> The reason robots in sci-fi are flat and empty is because sci-fi is
>>> re-telling Descartes’s assertion that everything except humans (probably,
>>> sotto voce, except him) are flat and affectless.  Maybe even more than
>>> machines are that, we imprint that on the paradigm of machine.  It’s just
>>> the age-old thing of people needing to feel singular and important, and
>>> using vehicles like religion to systematize their neediness.  That sci-fi
>>> prides itself on being imaginative, while re-telling the same small
>>> portfolio of bible stories and other similar sources is human
>>> Dunning-Krugerness on display.
>>>
>>> A world free of all that corruption probably has lots of dimensions of
>>> possibility that humans will just drive by without noticing because their
>>> minds are elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Of course, each of your detailed points I recognize is true and a good
>>> one,
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:05 AM, cody dooderson  wrote:
>>>
>>> It is surprising that AI is so creative. Many science fiction robots
>>> were calculated but uncreative. They are like Data from star trek,
>>> basically a calculator with very little creative potential. But it seems
>>> like AI, as it develops, is actually more creative than its human
>>> counterparts.
>>> Here are a few examples that come to mind. AlphaGo beat the grandmaster,
>>> Lee Sedol, with moves that the grandmaster had never seen before. The art
>>> world is seeing some very cool stuff coming out of trained neural networks
>>> like Dall-e2*.  In the Sony article, they talk about a trick where the AI
>>> put a wheel on the grass to initiate a controlled slide. Do you think that
>>> modern Neural networks will give any insight into the nature of creativity?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * Dall-e2 https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/
>>>
>>> Cody Smith
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>>
>>> Two articles from MIT Tech Review.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/
>>> 
>>>
>>> Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo racing, it turns out that they can
>>> learn to physically drive faster than people, but they're too aggressive to
>>> win head to head races because they drive the competition off the road.  So
>>> you need to train them to observe the norms of the competition, by
>>> including penalties for crashes, bumps, cut-offs, etc, into the training.
>>> They still drive faster than people, and the way they drive is a bit
>>> disturbing to watch.
>>>
>>> [So if you were training AI drivers for political races, would the norms
>>> come from established law or where the voters could be persuaded to mark
>>> their polls?]
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056219/weed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome/
>>> 
>>>
>>> The scientist and the instagram influencer attempt to study the genetic
>>> causes of CHS (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) and the influencer blows
>>> up the study when she declares that the scientist is a shill on her
>>> channel.  Ah the joys of decision making with uncertainty and cognitive
>>> bias.
>>>
>>> -- rec --
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   

Re: [FRIAM] AI etiquette, Marijuana research

[Gillian Densmore]

Hey! Data is a TASbot+Calculator thank you very much😜 🤣🤣.

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 9:38 PM cody dooderson  wrote:

> It looks like fiction will never be the same. Here is a list of books
> written by gpt3, https://lifearchitect.ai/books-by-ai/ .
> I haven't read any of these.
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:39 PM Prof David West 
> wrote:
>
>> I would not consider Asimov's robots to be "flat and empty," but they are
>> an anomaly in that regard. They did, after all, invent the Zeroth Law of
>> Robotics all by themselves.
>>
>> davew
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, at 2:18 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>
>> I feel like this is yet another reminder that humans, by and large, lack
>> imagination.
>>
>> The reason robots in sci-fi are flat and empty is because sci-fi is
>> re-telling Descartes’s assertion that everything except humans (probably,
>> sotto voce, except him) are flat and affectless.  Maybe even more than
>> machines are that, we imprint that on the paradigm of machine.  It’s just
>> the age-old thing of people needing to feel singular and important, and
>> using vehicles like religion to systematize their neediness.  That sci-fi
>> prides itself on being imaginative, while re-telling the same small
>> portfolio of bible stories and other similar sources is human
>> Dunning-Krugerness on display.
>>
>> A world free of all that corruption probably has lots of dimensions of
>> possibility that humans will just drive by without noticing because their
>> minds are elsewhere.
>>
>> Of course, each of your detailed points I recognize is true and a good
>> one,
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:05 AM, cody dooderson  wrote:
>>
>> It is surprising that AI is so creative. Many science fiction robots were
>> calculated but uncreative. They are like Data from star trek, basically a
>> calculator with very little creative potential. But it seems like AI, as it
>> develops, is actually more creative than its human counterparts.
>> Here are a few examples that come to mind. AlphaGo beat the grandmaster,
>> Lee Sedol, with moves that the grandmaster had never seen before. The art
>> world is seeing some very cool stuff coming out of trained neural networks
>> like Dall-e2*.  In the Sony article, they talk about a trick where the AI
>> put a wheel on the grass to initiate a controlled slide. Do you think that
>> modern Neural networks will give any insight into the nature of creativity?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * Dall-e2 https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/
>>
>> Cody Smith
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>
>> Two articles from MIT Tech Review.
>>
>>
>> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/
>> 
>>
>> Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo racing, it turns out that they can
>> learn to physically drive faster than people, but they're too aggressive to
>> win head to head races because they drive the competition off the road.  So
>> you need to train them to observe the norms of the competition, by
>> including penalties for crashes, bumps, cut-offs, etc, into the training.
>> They still drive faster than people, and the way they drive is a bit
>> disturbing to watch.
>>
>> [So if you were training AI drivers for political races, would the norms
>> come from established law or where the voters could be persuaded to mark
>> their polls?]
>>
>>
>> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056219/weed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome/
>> 
>>
>> The scientist and the instagram influencer attempt to study the genetic
>> causes of CHS (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) and the influencer blows
>> up the study when she declares that the scientist is a shill on her
>> channel.  Ah the joys of decision making with uncertainty and cognitive
>> bias.
>>
>> -- rec --
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> 
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> 

Re: [FRIAM] AI etiquette, Marijuana research

[cody dooderson]

It looks like fiction will never be the same. Here is a list of books
written by gpt3, https://lifearchitect.ai/books-by-ai/ .
I haven't read any of these.

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 7:39 PM Prof David West  wrote:

> I would not consider Asimov's robots to be "flat and empty," but they are
> an anomaly in that regard. They did, after all, invent the Zeroth Law of
> Robotics all by themselves.
>
> davew
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, at 2:18 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>
> I feel like this is yet another reminder that humans, by and large, lack
> imagination.
>
> The reason robots in sci-fi are flat and empty is because sci-fi is
> re-telling Descartes’s assertion that everything except humans (probably,
> sotto voce, except him) are flat and affectless.  Maybe even more than
> machines are that, we imprint that on the paradigm of machine.  It’s just
> the age-old thing of people needing to feel singular and important, and
> using vehicles like religion to systematize their neediness.  That sci-fi
> prides itself on being imaginative, while re-telling the same small
> portfolio of bible stories and other similar sources is human
> Dunning-Krugerness on display.
>
> A world free of all that corruption probably has lots of dimensions of
> possibility that humans will just drive by without noticing because their
> minds are elsewhere.
>
> Of course, each of your detailed points I recognize is true and a good one,
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:05 AM, cody dooderson  wrote:
>
> It is surprising that AI is so creative. Many science fiction robots were
> calculated but uncreative. They are like Data from star trek, basically a
> calculator with very little creative potential. But it seems like AI, as it
> develops, is actually more creative than its human counterparts.
> Here are a few examples that come to mind. AlphaGo beat the grandmaster,
> Lee Sedol, with moves that the grandmaster had never seen before. The art
> world is seeing some very cool stuff coming out of trained neural networks
> like Dall-e2*.  In the Sony article, they talk about a trick where the AI
> put a wheel on the grass to initiate a controlled slide. Do you think that
> modern Neural networks will give any insight into the nature of creativity?
>
>
>
>
> * Dall-e2 https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/
>
> Cody Smith
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
> Two articles from MIT Tech Review.
>
>
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/
> 
>
> Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo racing, it turns out that they can
> learn to physically drive faster than people, but they're too aggressive to
> win head to head races because they drive the competition off the road.  So
> you need to train them to observe the norms of the competition, by
> including penalties for crashes, bumps, cut-offs, etc, into the training.
> They still drive faster than people, and the way they drive is a bit
> disturbing to watch.
>
> [So if you were training AI drivers for political races, would the norms
> come from established law or where the voters could be persuaded to mark
> their polls?]
>
>
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056219/weed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome/
> 
>
> The scientist and the instagram influencer attempt to study the genetic
> causes of CHS (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) and the influencer blows
> up the study when she declares that the scientist is a shill on her
> channel.  Ah the joys of decision making with uncertainty and cognitive
> bias.
>
> -- rec --
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> 
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> 
> FRIAM-

Re: [FRIAM] AI etiquette, Marijuana research

[Prof David West]

I would not consider Asimov's robots to be "flat and empty," but they are an 
anomaly in that regard. They did, after all, invent the Zeroth Law of Robotics 
all by themselves.

davew

On Wed, Jul 20, 2022, at 2:18 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> I feel like this is yet another reminder that humans, by and large, lack 
> imagination.
> 
> The reason robots in sci-fi are flat and empty is because sci-fi is 
> re-telling Descartes’s assertion that everything except humans (probably, 
> sotto voce, except him) are flat and affectless.  Maybe even more than 
> machines are that, we imprint that on the paradigm of machine.  It’s just the 
> age-old thing of people needing to feel singular and important, and using 
> vehicles like religion to systematize their neediness.  That sci-fi prides 
> itself on being imaginative, while re-telling the same small portfolio of 
> bible stories and other similar sources is human Dunning-Krugerness on 
> display.
> 
> A world free of all that corruption probably has lots of dimensions of 
> possibility that humans will just drive by without noticing because their 
> minds are elsewhere.
> 
> Of course, each of your detailed points I recognize is true and a good one,
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:05 AM, cody dooderson  wrote:
>> 
>> It is surprising that AI is so creative. Many science fiction robots were 
>> calculated but uncreative. They are like Data from star trek, basically a 
>> calculator with very little creative potential. But it seems like AI, as it 
>> develops, is actually more creative than its human counterparts. 
>> Here are a few examples that come to mind. AlphaGo beat the grandmaster, Lee 
>> Sedol, with moves that the grandmaster had never seen before. The art world 
>> is seeing some very cool stuff coming out of trained neural networks like 
>> Dall-e2*.  In the Sony article, they talk about a trick where the AI put a 
>> wheel on the grass to initiate a controlled slide. Do you think that modern 
>> Neural networks will give any insight into the nature of creativity?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> * Dall-e2 https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/ 
>> 
>> Cody Smith
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>> Two articles from MIT Tech Review.
>>> 
>>> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo racing, it turns out that they can 
>>> learn to physically drive faster than people, but they're too aggressive to 
>>> win head to head races because they drive the competition off the road.  So 
>>> you need to train them to observe the norms of the competition, by 
>>> including penalties for crashes, bumps, cut-offs, etc, into the training.  
>>> They still drive faster than people, and the way they drive is a bit 
>>> disturbing to watch.
>>> 
>>> [So if you were training AI drivers for political races, would the norms 
>>> come from established law or where the voters could be persuaded to mark 
>>> their polls?]
>>> 
>>> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056219/weed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome/
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The scientist and the instagram influencer attempt to study the genetic 
>>> causes of CHS (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) and the influencer blows 
>>> up the study when she declares that the scientist is a shill on her 
>>> channel.  Ah the joys of decision making with uncertainty and cognitive 
>>> bias.
>>> 
>>> -- rec --
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam 
>>> 
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com 
>>> 
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 
>>> 

Re: [FRIAM] AI etiquette, Marijuana research

[Steve Smith]

Smiths, et alii ...

I find this thread-bit a nice complement to the point Marcus made many 
weeks ago... confronting my assumption that 
consciousness/intelligence/creativity (can't remember precisely which 
subject was in play at the moment) was "anything more than imitation". /

/

/    "All Art is Derivative"/?

I think there is something afoot here which I can only (because I lack 
imagination, and even when I notice I'm being derivative, I cannot help 
but continue?) characterize (gesturally) what I think Terrence Deacon is 
going on about with his neologisms: "Ententional" and "Absential" and by 
extension "Teleodynamic" 
.


I could blather on for paragraphs with my weak grasp of what he is going 
on about, but instead will leave it... "¿absent?".   I believe this is 
in your (Eric's) Wheelhouse, rhyming with Morowitz's "Pruning".


As I am wont to do, I happen to be reading simultaneously with Deacon, a 
work of fiction by Ruth Ozeki, "The Book of Form and Emptiness"  where 
one of her characters (a wheelchair bound homeless poet) instructs her 
protagonist with:


   /"Poetry is a problem of form and emptiness, Ze moment i put one
   word onto an empty page, I have created a problem for myself. Ze
   poem that emerges is form trying to find a solution to my problem."/

It is a ¿coincidence? that these two books crawling through me right now 
are on the same subject in some sense?  All of this has bubble-sorted 
"The Origin and Nature of Life 
" 
to the top of my stack, about 5 years overdue.  I must read faster, or 
more in parallel or allow my dopple-selves across the quantum-multiverse 
to merge more-better?

//

Regarding your (Cody's) original assertion, I do believe that there is a 
reach/grasp relationship.   True creativity (as if such a thing can be 
declared) might seem to be in the reach more than the grasp.  AI still 
seems to be *grasping* what humans (the only sentience we are familiar 
with) has deigned/considered/imagined to *reach for*?


I will respond to Eric's astute point about imagination/creativity in 
(science) fiction under separate cover.


- yet another Smith

On 7/20/22 3:18 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
I feel like this is yet another reminder that humans, by and large, 
lack imagination.


The reason robots in sci-fi are flat and empty is because sci-fi is 
re-telling Descartes’s assertion that everything except humans 
(probably, sotto voce, except him) are flat and affectless.  Maybe 
even more than machines are that, we imprint that on the paradigm of 
machine.  It’s just the age-old thing of people needing to feel 
singular and important, and using vehicles like religion to 
systematize their neediness.  That sci-fi prides itself on being 
imaginative, while re-telling the same small portfolio of bible 
stories and other similar sources is human Dunning-Krugerness on display.


A world free of all that corruption probably has lots of dimensions of 
possibility that humans will just drive by without noticing because 
their minds are elsewhere.


Of course, each of your detailed points I recognize is true and a good 
one,


Eric




On Jul 21, 2022, at 2:05 AM, cody dooderson  wrote:

It is surprising that AI is so creative. Many science fiction robots 
were calculated but uncreative. They are like Data from star trek, 
basically a calculator with very little creative potential. But it 
seems like AI, as it develops, is actually more creative than its 
human counterparts.
Here are a few examples that come to mind. AlphaGo beat the 
grandmaster, Lee Sedol, with moves that the grandmaster had never 
seen before. The art world is seeing some very cool stuff coming out 
of trained neural networks like Dall-e2*.  In the Sony article, they 
talk about a trick where the AI put a wheel on the grass to initiate 
a controlled slide. Do you think that modern Neural networks will 
give any insight into the nature of creativity?





* Dall-e2 https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/

Cody Smith


On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

Two articles from MIT Tech Review.


https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/



Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo racing, it turns out that
they can learn to physically drive faster than people, but
they're too aggressive to win head to head races because they
drive the competition o

Re: [FRIAM] AI etiquette, Marijuana research

[cody dooderson]

It is surprising that AI is so creative. Many science fiction robots were
calculated but uncreative. They are like Data from star trek, basically a
calculator with very little creative potential. But it seems like AI, as it
develops, is actually more creative than its human counterparts.
Here are a few examples that come to mind. AlphaGo beat the grandmaster,
Lee Sedol, with moves that the grandmaster had never seen before. The art
world is seeing some very cool stuff coming out of trained neural networks
like Dall-e2*.  In the Sony article, they talk about a trick where the AI
put a wheel on the grass to initiate a controlled slide. Do you think that
modern Neural networks will give any insight into the nature of creativity?




* Dall-e2 https://www.reddit.com/r/weirddalle/

Cody Smith


On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 7:19 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Two articles from MIT Tech Review.
>
>
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/
>
> Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo racing, it turns out that they can
> learn to physically drive faster than people, but they're too aggressive to
> win head to head races because they drive the competition off the road.  So
> you need to train them to observe the norms of the competition, by
> including penalties for crashes, bumps, cut-offs, etc, into the training.
> They still drive faster than people, and the way they drive is a bit
> disturbing to watch.
>
> [So if you were training AI drivers for political races, would the norms
> come from established law or where the voters could be persuaded to mark
> their polls?]
>
>
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056219/weed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome/
>
> The scientist and the instagram influencer attempt to study the genetic
> causes of CHS (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) and the influencer blows
> up the study when she declares that the scientist is a shill on her
> channel.  Ah the joys of decision making with uncertainty and cognitive
> bias.
>
> -- rec --
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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[FRIAM] AI etiquette, Marijuana research

[Roger Critchlow]

Two articles from MIT Tech Review.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/19/1056176/sonys-racing-ai-destroyed-its-human-competitors-by-being-nice-and-fast/

Training AI drivers for Gran Turismo racing, it turns out that they can
learn to physically drive faster than people, but they're too aggressive to
win head to head races because they drive the competition off the road.  So
you need to train them to observe the norms of the competition, by
including penalties for crashes, bumps, cut-offs, etc, into the training.
They still drive faster than people, and the way they drive is a bit
disturbing to watch.

[So if you were training AI drivers for political races, would the norms
come from established law or where the voters could be persuaded to mark
their polls?]

https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/07/20/1056219/weed-influencer-and-scientist-feud-over-cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome/

The scientist and the instagram influencer attempt to study the genetic
causes of CHS (cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome) and the influencer blows
up the study when she declares that the scientist is a shill on her
channel.  Ah the joys of decision making with uncertainty and cognitive
bias.

-- rec --
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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