Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Stephen Guerin]

Archive pointer to 2013 FRIAM thread on literate programming:
  http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/Literate-CoffeeScript-td7581862.html

Owen gave a nice WedTech talk sometime around then, too.

-Stephen

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 8:24 PM Russell Standish 
wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 11:45:46AM -0700, Prof David West wrote:
> >
> > But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here)
> and
> > other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the
> reference
> > from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored,
> paradigm in
> > computer science called "literate programming"  — the most prominent
> advocate,
> > Donald Knuth.
> >
> > If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating
> to
> > another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the
> knowledge and
> > meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or
> correct the
> > program as needs be. If possible this would be a communication skill
> worth
> > developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication
> outside the
> > world of the computer.
>
> Literate programming is alive and well in modern software engineering
> - it just isn't called that. Knuth's tools which involved a special
> input language, a tool for converting that to compileable Pascal and
> Latex for producing humane readable printouts of the code were
> fantastic for the 1980s, but are rather dated for current software
> development requirements.
>
> In C++, one uses a tool called Doxygen, which parses standard C++
> code, and produces HTML, Latex and other possibilities. The "dot"
> network graphics tool is used to produce interactive UML diagrams of
> the class structures, and source code is annotate with hyperlinks
> allowing you to click on (say) a variable name, to find out what type
> it is, where it is defined and so on. Plus, there is a huge amount of
> doxygen markup features available, allowing things like embedded LaTeX
> equations, or adding in crafted HTML links and so on. In short it does
> everything Knuth's web tool did, and more, without the need to write
> in an idiosyncratic source language.
>
> When I come across a piece of unfamiliar code, the _first_ thing I do
> is run doxygen on it, and then start reading the code using a web
> browser. People are sometimes amazed at how quickly I find my way
> around a new code base - when that happens, I let them in on my
> superpower, ie doxygen.
>
> Doxygen handles a number of programming environments, Java, C#,
> Fortran even, though not Python nor Javascript alas. Other
> environments have similar tools, of greater or lesser power: eg Java
> has Javadoc (which is broadly compatible with Doxygen, in fact).
>
> Knuth should be commended for being 30 years ahead of his time with
> literate programming, and should be glad the industry does finally
> "get it", even if his contribution is largely forgotten, and not
> acknowledged by the hordes of software engineers currently practising.
>
>
> --
>
>
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>   http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
> 
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Russell Standish]

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 11:45:46AM -0700, Prof David West wrote:
> 
> But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and
> other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference
> from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in
> computer science called "literate programming"  — the most prominent advocate,
> Donald Knuth.
> 
> If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to
> another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and
> meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct 
> the
> program as needs be. If possible this would be a communication skill worth
> developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the
> world of the computer.

Literate programming is alive and well in modern software engineering
- it just isn't called that. Knuth's tools which involved a special
input language, a tool for converting that to compileable Pascal and
Latex for producing humane readable printouts of the code were
fantastic for the 1980s, but are rather dated for current software
development requirements.

In C++, one uses a tool called Doxygen, which parses standard C++
code, and produces HTML, Latex and other possibilities. The "dot"
network graphics tool is used to produce interactive UML diagrams of
the class structures, and source code is annotate with hyperlinks
allowing you to click on (say) a variable name, to find out what type
it is, where it is defined and so on. Plus, there is a huge amount of
doxygen markup features available, allowing things like embedded LaTeX
equations, or adding in crafted HTML links and so on. In short it does
everything Knuth's web tool did, and more, without the need to write
in an idiosyncratic source language.

When I come across a piece of unfamiliar code, the _first_ thing I do
is run doxygen on it, and then start reading the code using a web
browser. People are sometimes amazed at how quickly I find my way
around a new code base - when that happens, I let them in on my
superpower, ie doxygen.

Doxygen handles a number of programming environments, Java, C#,
Fortran even, though not Python nor Javascript alas. Other
environments have similar tools, of greater or lesser power: eg Java
has Javadoc (which is broadly compatible with Doxygen, in fact).

Knuth should be commended for being 30 years ahead of his time with
literate programming, and should be glad the industry does finally
"get it", even if his contribution is largely forgotten, and not
acknowledged by the hordes of software engineers currently practising.


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[jon zingale]

No doubt that developments with dependent types and the formally-provable
code movement (I feel like I can call it that) is worthy of attention. Wrt
Manin's (and by extension Knuth's) comment, I almost see this movement as
bearing fruit functorially in the mathematics community[L]. Playfully, I see
it as being analogous to what happened when American filmmakers saw what
Italian filmmakers were doing with American westerns.

The value, in the long run, of provable code I sincerely have hope for. Not
only do I see value there for the engineer of critical applications, but
also for the systems-level thinkers that will need to have a bridge between
ever higher-level abstractions and the ever complexifying bytecode beneath.
There, in that Daniel Murfet paper cited some months ago on the *Derivative
of a Turing Machine*[D], I even sense a future where tight formal logic
guides the design of neural networks.

Manin cites Euler and Gauss, and from the bit of Euler's original work that
I have read, he was clearly a *sit by the fire and calculate endless pages
of computations when one cannot sleep* kind of guy. Equally, no one would
accuse him of avoiding the challenge to prove. I would not be surprised if a
great deal of his best theorems were not inspired by a desire to simplify
calculations and from observing the data produced by his computations. I
believe that the perpetual desire to refactor and port over to new
frameworks shares sympathy with this sit-by-the-fire approach, and the dawn
of the computer has provided this tendency, new domains to inhabit.

[L] Clearly, computation has its roots in the logical community, it's
proto-languages, those of Turing and Church, predate the first mechanical
implementations, and ever since that community has never *really* strayed
far.

[D]
http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/Derivatives-of-Turing-Machines-td7599131.html



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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Marcus Daniels]

I could see a middle ground where one focuses attention to hardening certain 
parts of software systems using dependently typed languages, or proof-bearing 
code.   The motivation just isn't there to work that hard when it doesn't 
matter, which is most of the time.   

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 9:41 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

FWIW, my position is probably best summarized in an interview with Yuri Manin, 
where he states:

"I have once translated a talk by Donald Knuth into Russian. In Uzbekistan, 
there was a meeting dedicated to Al'khorezmi. Knuth started his talk with a 
funny statement. In his opinion, the primary importance of computers for the 
mathematical community is that those people finally took to mathematics who 
were interested in mathematics but had an algorithmic sort of mind. Now they 
were able to do what they wanted.
Before that, this subculture didn't exist. And Knuth was describing himself as 
a person whose mind is specially designed for writing software and how happy he 
was that, finally, he could do what he wanted to. I take this argument quite 
seriously and I do believe that among the community of future potential 
mathematicians there is a sub-community whose minds are better for writing 
computer programs than for proving theorems. In the last century, they probably 
would have proved theorems but nowadays they do not. I have a great suspicion 
that for example Euler today would spend much more of his time writing software 
because he spent so much of his time, e.g., in efforts of calculating tables of 
moon positions. And I believe that Gauss as well would spend much more time 
sitting in front of the screen."

http://www.ega-math.narod.ru/Math/Manin.htm



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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Roger Frye]

I agree wholeheartedly. The one computer course I got to take in my senior
year while majoring in electrical engineering and physics saved me from
electrocuting or irradiating myself in a lab. Computer math made such sense
to me that I could enjoy doing the assignments instead of fumbling through
vague theories and integrals.

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:41 AM jon zingale  wrote:

> FWIW, my position is probably best summarized in an interview with Yuri
> Manin, where he states:
>
> "I have once translated a talk by Donald Knuth into Russian. In
> Uzbekistan, there was a meeting dedicated to Al'khorezmi. Knuth started
> his talk with a funny statement. In his opinion, the primary importance
> of computers for the mathematical community is that those people finally
> took to mathematics who were interested in mathematics but had an
> algorithmic sort of mind. Now they were able to do what they wanted.
> Before that, this subculture didn't exist. And Knuth was describing
> himself as a person whose mind is specially designed for writing software
> and how happy he was that, finally, he could do what he wanted to. I take
> this argument quite seriously and I do believe that among the community
> of future potential mathematicians there is a sub-community whose minds
> are better for writing computer programs than for proving theorems. In
> the last century, they probably would have proved theorems but nowadays
> they do not. I have a great suspicion that for example Euler today would
> spend much more of his time writing software because he spent so much of
> his time, e.g., in efforts of calculating tables of moon positions. And
> I believe that Gauss as well would spend much more time sitting in front
> of the screen."
>
> http://www.ega-math.narod.ru/Math/Manin.htm
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
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> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[jon zingale]

FWIW, my position is probably best summarized in an interview with Yuri
Manin, where he states:

"I have once translated a talk by Donald Knuth into Russian. In
Uzbekistan, there was a meeting dedicated to Al'khorezmi. Knuth started
his talk with a funny statement. In his opinion, the primary importance
of computers for the mathematical community is that those people finally
took to mathematics who were interested in mathematics but had an
algorithmic sort of mind. Now they were able to do what they wanted.
Before that, this subculture didn't exist. And Knuth was describing
himself as a person whose mind is specially designed for writing software
and how happy he was that, finally, he could do what he wanted to. I take
this argument quite seriously and I do believe that among the community
of future potential mathematicians there is a sub-community whose minds
are better for writing computer programs than for proving theorems. In
the last century, they probably would have proved theorems but nowadays
they do not. I have a great suspicion that for example Euler today would
spend much more of his time writing software because he spent so much of
his time, e.g., in efforts of calculating tables of moon positions. And
I believe that Gauss as well would spend much more time sitting in front
of the screen."

http://www.ega-math.narod.ru/Math/Manin.htm



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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Tom Johnson]

Duly noted.

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021, 5:22 PM Edward Angel  wrote:

> The term “computational thinking” incorporates all the points you brought
> up.
>
> Ed
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Tom Johnson  wrote:
>
> And I would gently suggest (not argue) that before ""algorithmic thinking"
> we should teach systems thinking/analysis: what will be the system in
> question and its defined boundaries, what the variables/agents within the
> system, the input/output relationships between those variables under what
> context/conditions, how do we measure change in the system and is the
> system capable of "learning," i.e. adapting to internal and external
> changes in its environment.
>
> With these steps we can start to discuss algorithms.  So there!  Harump!
> TJ
>
> 
> Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com
> 
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
> *NM Foundation for Open Government*
> 
> *Check out It's The People's Data
> *
>
> 
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 3:00 PM George Duncan  wrote:
>
>> I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for
>> a particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I
>> would, though, argue for  "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational
>> thinking".
>>
>> George Duncan
>> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
>> georgeduncanart.com
>> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
>> Land: (505) 983-6895
>> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>>
>> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
>> luminous chaos.
>>
>> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
>> then be a valuable delusion."
>> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
>>
>> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
>> power." Joanna Macy.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel  wrote:
>>
>>> Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is
>>> what is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding
>>> has come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely,
>>> converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a
>>> particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened
>>> in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why
>>> many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing
>>> with CS education.
>>>
>>> If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine,
>>> if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>> ___
>>>
>>> Ed Angel
>>>
>>> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
>>> (ARTS Lab)
>>> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>>>
>>> 1017 Sierra Pinon
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87501
>>> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
>>> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code.
>>> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus,
>>> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
>>>
>>> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill
>>> and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
>>>
>>> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to
>>> increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
>>>
>>> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the
>>> specific research reported on. I *want* the reports to be accurate
>>> representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against
>>> the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental
>>> knowledge domain.
>>>
>>> dave west
>>> -  . -..-. . -. 

Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Edward Angel]

The term “computational thinking” incorporates all the points you brought up. 

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


> On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Tom Johnson  wrote:
> 
> And I would gently suggest (not argue) that before ""algorithmic thinking" we 
> should teach systems thinking/analysis: what will be the system in question 
> and its defined boundaries, what the variables/agents within the system, the 
> input/output relationships between those variables under what 
> context/conditions, how do we measure change in the system and is the system 
> capable of "learning," i.e. adapting to internal and external changes in its 
> environment.  
> 
> With these steps we can start to discuss algorithms.  So there!  Harump!
> TJ
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com 
> 
> Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
> NM Foundation for Open Government 
> 
> Check out It's The People's Data 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 3:00 PM George Duncan  > wrote:
> I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for a 
> particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I would, 
> though, argue for  "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational 
> thinking".
> 
> George Duncan
> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
> georgeduncanart.com 
> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
> Land: (505) 983-6895  
> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>  
> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and 
> luminous chaos.
> 
> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may 
> then be a valuable delusion."
> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 
> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest 
> power." Joanna Macy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel  > wrote:
> Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is 
> meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come 
> to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting 
> a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular 
> computer language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools 
> with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer 
> to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.
> 
> If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if 
> not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.
> 
> Ed
> ___
> 
> Ed Angel
> 
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
> 
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu 
> 
> 505-453-4944 (cell)   http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West > > wrote:
>> 
>> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
>> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
>> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
>> 
>> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
>> has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
>> 
>> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to 
>> increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
>> 
>> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
>> research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of 
>> the 

Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Tom Johnson]

And I would gently suggest (not argue) that before ""algorithmic thinking"
we should teach systems thinking/analysis: what will be the system in
question and its defined boundaries, what the variables/agents within the
system, the input/output relationships between those variables under what
context/conditions, how do we measure change in the system and is the
system capable of "learning," i.e. adapting to internal and external
changes in its environment.

With these steps we can start to discuss algorithms.  So there!  Harump!
TJ


Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com

Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
*NM Foundation for Open Government*

*Check out It's The People's Data
*




On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 3:00 PM George Duncan  wrote:

> I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for
> a particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I
> would, though, argue for  "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational
> thinking".
>
> George Duncan
> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
> georgeduncanart.com
> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
> Land: (505) 983-6895
> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>
> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
> luminous chaos.
>
> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
> then be a valuable delusion."
> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
>
> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
> power." Joanna Macy.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel  wrote:
>
>> Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what
>> is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has
>> come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely,
>> converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a
>> particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened
>> in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why
>> many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing
>> with CS education.
>>
>> If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine,
>> if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.
>>
>> Ed
>> ___
>>
>> Ed Angel
>>
>> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
>> (ARTS Lab)
>> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>>
>> 1017 Sierra Pinon
>> Santa Fe, NM 87501
>> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
>> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>>
>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West 
>> wrote:
>>
>> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code.
>> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus,
>> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
>>
>> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill
>> and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
>>
>> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to
>> increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
>>
>> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the
>> specific research reported on. I *want* the reports to be accurate
>> representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against
>> the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental
>> knowledge domain.
>>
>> dave west
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[George Duncan]

I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for a
particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I would,
though, argue for  "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational
thinking".

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
then be a valuable delusion."
>From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
power." Joanna Macy.




On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel  wrote:

> Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what
> is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has
> come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely,
> converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a
> particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened
> in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why
> many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing
> with CS education.
>
> If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if
> not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.
>
> Ed
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West 
> wrote:
>
> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code.
> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus,
> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
>
> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill
> and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
>
> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to
> increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
>
> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific
> research reported on. I *want* the reports to be accurate representation
> of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of
> "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge
> domain.
>
> dave west
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Marcus Daniels]

Fortran after 2008 is not bad.  It’s all the old Fortran programmers who are a 
danger to themselves and others.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 6:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

So I've been deep in a FORTRAN program for decoding an amateur radio mode 
called FT8.  I was going to recommend this to the supercomputing challenge 
student that Stephen is advising, because it's used for 
multi-senders/multi-listeners on a single audio channel, but I'm glad/sad I 
looked into it first because it's a mess.  The astrophysicist and Nobelist Joe 
Taylor at Princeton has been working on various low power low baud 
communication amateur radio protocols for decades now and they're all in this 
source tar ball, the protocols, the encoders, the decoders, the programs, the 
libraries, all the false starts, and every simulator anyone ever thought of 
making.   And then there's the Qt user interface that someone else layered on 
to the package.

So I'm picking my way through this wasteland of living, dead, and zombie code 
to follow the thread of one program that's embedded in it.  My FORTRAN is very 
rusty, and they've redefined the language a bit since the 1970's.  But I'm 
getting the gist of it as I muck along.  Programming is communication of intent 
to make a computation, often thwarted.   Thwarted by the programmer's 
communication skills, technical skills, the tools available, the programming 
language, the skills of the previous programmer on the project, the legacy 
cruft that might have to be preserved, and all the usual woes of all other 
modes of communication.  I have some notes in front of me which demonstrated 
that I didn't divide 58 by 2 correctly on the first try and spent a half an 
hour figuring out that was the problem.  Minor set back compared to my efforts 
to imagine belief propagation.  Who would guess that belief propagation is how 
communication protocols get decoded?

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Roger Critchlow]

So I've been deep in a FORTRAN program for decoding an amateur radio mode
called FT8.  I was going to recommend this to the supercomputing challenge
student that Stephen is advising, because it's used for
multi-senders/multi-listeners on a single audio channel, but I'm glad/sad I
looked into it first because it's a mess.  The astrophysicist and Nobelist
Joe Taylor at Princeton has been working on various low power low baud
communication amateur radio protocols for decades now and they're all in
this source tar ball, the protocols, the encoders, the decoders, the
programs, the libraries, all the false starts, and every simulator anyone
ever thought of making.   And then there's the Qt user interface that
someone else layered on to the package.

So I'm picking my way through this wasteland of living, dead, and zombie
code to follow the thread of one program that's embedded in it.  My FORTRAN
is very rusty, and they've redefined the language a bit since the 1970's.
But I'm getting the gist of it as I muck along.  Programming is
communication of intent to make a computation, often thwarted.   Thwarted
by the programmer's communication skills, technical skills, the tools
available, the programming language, the skills of the previous programmer
on the project, the legacy cruft that might have to be preserved, and all
the usual woes of all other modes of communication.  I have some notes in
front of me which demonstrated that I didn't divide 58 by 2 correctly on
the first try and spent a half an hour figuring out that was the problem.
Minor set back compared to my efforts to imagine belief propagation.  Who
would guess that belief propagation is how communication protocols get
decoded?

-- rec --
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Marcus Daniels]

Or computational thinking that has a machine-readable form to facilitate 
cognitive offload of certain mechanical aspects.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 1:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is 
meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to 
refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a 
final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer 
language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with 
programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use 
the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not 
now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

Ed
___

Ed Angel
Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) 
an...@cs.unm.edu<mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu>
505-453-4944 (cell)
http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel


On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
"computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the 
research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
"computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[David Eric Smith]

Nick, I think you should fine the perspective advanced here very congenial.

https://opendocs.github.io/sicp/sicp.pdf 
<https://opendocs.github.io/sicp/sicp.pdf>

I know the people who code for a living will sigh and say “how quaint, what the 
guy who doesn’t know anything about this work thinks is our literature”.  
Granted.  My younger colleagues, whose work I have forwarded to this list, have 
never read it and many have never heard of it.  Yet for (I think) well more 
than a decade, it was a core standard at MIT.

As an outsider who knows nothing, I find it a terrific introduction, and do not 
yet understand why anyone would recommend _against_ taking at least a little 
time to read within it.

Eric



> On Jan 27, 2021, at 12:56 PM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life 
> that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to write 
> an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want 
> them to do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is 
> always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response.  No boss ever says 
> to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t 
> understand you.”  
>  
> Am I right about any of that?
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f=E,1,kv82v2yL8r5CGmB5BAQaLVxej2ui8eapdbb1d7UumyfRpbBQ2nULD7JCl18N64cpdGnc9uMxoPxf9DBSsxuL-xoGNdbJpsUURVjSCO-B31ShbYdu8st2-cYi=1>
>  
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music
>  
> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
>  
> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
> has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
>  
> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
> the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
>  
> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
> research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the 
> research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
> "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge 
> domain.
>  
> dave west
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Edward Angel]

Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is 
meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to 
refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a 
final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer 
language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with 
programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use 
the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not 
now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West  wrote:
> 
> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
> 
> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
> has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
> 
> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
> the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
> 
> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
> research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the 
> research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
> "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge 
> domain.
> 
> dave west
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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> 
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> 
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[uǝlƃ ↙↙↙]

No, I didn't miss the conditional. Both with and without monism, you can call 
anything "communication" if you want. The garage door opener can, given monism, 
and given stigmergy, be thought of as a communication from me to some far 
future civilization, for example... or as a way to tell GE how to build a 
better one, or whatever. But it's not. Sometimes a garage door opener is just a 
garage door opener. It's completely useless to expand every artifact out into a 
kind of communication.

So, sometimes a programmed computer is communication and sometimes it's not. 
Talk concretely about what you want to talk about and the conversation will be 
more productive.

On 1/27/21 12:05 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> You missed the conditional. "Absent dualism..." what separates getting a 
> machine to do something from getting a human to do something?  If you answer 
> is "dualism", then there's no need to talk further.  We've been there, done 
> that!  

-- 
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[jon zingale]

Whoa, Nick! That was Dave and not me.



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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[thompnickson2]

You missed the conditional. "Absent dualism..." what separates getting a 
machine to do something from getting a human to do something?  If you answer is 
"dualism", then there's no need to talk further.  We've been there, done that!  
n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 2:02 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

Because you're free to define *anything* as a kind of communication if you're 
so inclined. But it's not helpful and smacks of sophistry, if not bad faith 
rhetoric. Sure, that garage door opener I built from a raspberry pi can be 
*thought* of as a kind of communication. But really?!? No. It's a garage door 
opener.


On 1/27/21 11:46 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is helpful.  Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine 
> to do what you want a kind of communication.  Why privilege the inter-human 
> kind.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[uǝlƃ ↙↙↙]

Because you're free to define *anything* as a kind of communication if you're 
so inclined. But it's not helpful and smacks of sophistry, if not bad faith 
rhetoric. Sure, that garage door opener I built from a raspberry pi can be 
*thought* of as a kind of communication. But really?!? No. It's a garage door 
opener.


On 1/27/21 11:46 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is helpful.  Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine to do 
> what you want a kind of communication.  Why privilege the inter-human kind. 

-- 
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Jon.  

This is helpful.  Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine to do what 
you want a kind of communication.  Why privilege the inter-human kind.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 12:46 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

 

Nick,

 

I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ...  Really good coders 
like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:

 

Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder > machine 
-> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the embodiment of a 
mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to rearranging the symbols in 
a mathematical expression, such that, when resolved, the expression yields 
different results.

 

No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience 
of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."

 

But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and 
other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference 
from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in 
computer science called "literate programming"  — the most prominent advocate, 
Donald Knuth.

 

If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to 
another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and 
meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct the 
program as needs be. If possible this would be a communication skill worth 
developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the 
world of the computer.

 

"If possible," is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that this 
kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because the 
medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to 
communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is 
joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the program 
(addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, 
the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.

 

davew

 

 

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>  wrote:

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life 
that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to write an 
instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to 
do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always 
right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response.  No boss ever says to a 
coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand 
you.” 

 

Am I right about any of that?

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> 

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM

To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> 

Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

 

 

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
"computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

 

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

 

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

 

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the 
research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
"computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

 

dave west

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Frank Wimberly]

cation here). This is what the
> reference from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored,
> paradigm in computer science called "literate programming"  — the most
> prominent advocate, Donald Knuth.
>
> If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to
> another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge
> and meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or
> correct the program as needs be. *If possible* this would be a
> communication skill worth developing — might lead to more precise and
> accurate communication outside the world of the computer.
>
> *"If possible,"* is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that
> this kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because
> the medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to
> communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is
> joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the
> program (addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of
> that theory, the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about
> life that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to
> write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you
> want them to do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the
> communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response.
> No boss ever says to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately
> the machine didn’t understand you.”
>
>
>
> Am I right about any of that?
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam   *On
> Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] coding versus music
>
>
>
>
> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code.
> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus,
> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
>
>
>
> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill
> and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
>
>
>
> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to
> increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
>
>
>
> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific
> research reported on. I *want* the reports to be accurate representation
> of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of
> "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge
> domain.
>
>
>
> dave west
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
>
>
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>
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> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>


-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Steve Smith]

eveloped it.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something
>> about life that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be
>> like trying to write an instruction to a person such that that person
>> always does what you want them to do.  So, it is an act of
>> communication in which the communicatee is always right, no matter
>> how idiotic may be it’s response.  No boss ever says to a coder,
>> “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t
>> understand you.” 
>>
>>  
>>
>> Am I right about any of that?
>>
>>  
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
>> *To:* friam@redfish.com
>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] coding versus music
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code.
>> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math;
>> plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
>>
>>  
>>
>> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading
>> skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math
>> skills.
>>
>>  
>>
>> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to
>> increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
>>
>>  
>>
>> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the
>> specific research reported on. I *_want_* the reports to be accurate
>> representation of the research because it confirms long held biases
>> against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as
>> a fundamental knowledge domain.
>>
>>  
>>
>> dave west
>>
>> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com>
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/>
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
>>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[jon zingale]

Yeah, that book is a classic and written in Lisp!



--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Prof David West]

Nick,

I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ...  Really good coders 
like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:

Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder > machine 
-> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the embodiment of a 
mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to rearranging the symbols in 
a mathematical expression, such that, when resolved, the expression yields 
different results.

No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience 
of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."

But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and 
other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference 
from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in 
computer science called "literate programming"  — the most prominent advocate, 
Donald Knuth.

If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to 
another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and 
meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct the 
program as needs be. *_If possible_* this would be a communication skill worth 
developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the 
world of the computer.

*"If possible,"* is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that this 
kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because the 
medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to 
communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is 
joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the program 
(addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, 
the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.

davew


On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life 
> that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to write 
> an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want 
> them to do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is 
> always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response.  No boss ever says 
> to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t 
> understand you.” 

>  

> Am I right about any of that?

>  

> Nick Thompson

> thompnicks...@gmail.com

> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

>  

> 

> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] coding versus music
> 

>  

> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

>  

> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
> has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

>  

> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
> the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

>  

> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
> research reported on. I *_want_* the reports to be accurate representation of 
> the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
> "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge 
> domain.

>  

> dave west

> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[thompnickson2]

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about
life that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to
write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you
want them to do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the
communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it's response.
No boss ever says to a coder, "Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the
machine didn't understand you."  

 

Am I right about any of that?

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> 

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

 

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code.
Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus,
"computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

 

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and
has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

 

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to
increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

 

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific
research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of
the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of
"computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge
domain.

 

dave west

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[FRIAM] coding versus music

[Prof David West]

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
"computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
research reported on. I *_want_* the reports to be accurate representation of 
the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
"computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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