Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-05-02 Thread Russell Standish 
On Tue, May 02, 2023 at 02:18:00PM +0200, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> Russell,
> 
> Are you working on https://ravel.bio/ ?
> 
> Looks very exciting! Do you have more information on it. The website info is
> very sketchy/

What? No. Thanks for pointing that out - we may end up in trademark dispute :).

Take a look at https://ravelation.net

Cheers


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-05-02 Thread Pieter Steenekamp 
Russell,

Are you working on https://ravel.bio/ ?

Looks very exciting! Do you have more information on it. The website info
is very sketchy/

On Tue, 2 May 2023 at 01:08, Russell Standish  wrote:

> On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 10:40:00AM +0200, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> > I like Python, but I also use other languages and I don’t think it’s the
> best
> > for everything. For example, when I teach deep learning to business
> people who
> > don’t code, I recommend R and H2O. R is simpler for non-coders and H2O
> can
> > handle spreadsheet data better, for example when there is missing data or
> > categorical inputs. My point is that Python is not hard, but it can be
> less
> > friendly for busy managers who want to learn AI basics. This is when I
> compare
> > Python/Scikit Learn with R/H2O, not even Python/Tensorflow which is very
> > powerful but very difficult to learn for non-coders. One more thing, for
> the
> > common business use case, I think R/H2O is more powerful than Python with
> > typical deep learning platforms like Scikit Learn and Tensorflow.
>
>
> I'll look up H2O. Not for my own purposes - as I said, I've gone all
> in on Python, and still C++ is my natural environment, even Python I
> find has some friction.
>
> But, from you description, it looks like a natural competitor to a
> product I'm working on called Ravel.
>
>
> --
>
>
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>   http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
> 
>
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> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-05-01 Thread Russell Standish 
On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 10:40:00AM +0200, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> I like Python, but I also use other languages and I don’t think it’s the best
> for everything. For example, when I teach deep learning to business people who
> don’t code, I recommend R and H2O. R is simpler for non-coders and H2O can
> handle spreadsheet data better, for example when there is missing data or
> categorical inputs. My point is that Python is not hard, but it can be less
> friendly for busy managers who want to learn AI basics. This is when I compare
> Python/Scikit Learn with R/H2O, not even Python/Tensorflow which is very
> powerful but very difficult to learn for non-coders. One more thing, for the
> common business use case, I think R/H2O is more powerful than Python with
> typical deep learning platforms like Scikit Learn and Tensorflow.


I'll look up H2O. Not for my own purposes - as I said, I've gone all
in on Python, and still C++ is my natural environment, even Python I
find has some friction.

But, from you description, it looks like a natural competitor to a
product I'm working on called Ravel.


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-05-01 Thread Pieter Steenekamp 
I like Python, but I also use other languages and I don’t think it’s the
best for everything. For example, when I teach deep learning to business
people who don’t code, I recommend R and H2O. R is simpler for non-coders
and H2O can handle spreadsheet data better, for example when there is
missing data or categorical inputs. My point is that Python is not hard,
but it can be less friendly for busy managers who want to learn AI basics.
This is when I compare Python/Scikit Learn with R/H2O, not even
Python/Tensorflow which is very powerful but very difficult to learn for
non-coders. One more thing, for the common business use case, I think R/H2O
is more powerful than Python with typical deep learning platforms like
Scikit Learn and Tensorflow. Obviously, if you wish to play with large
language models or computer vision, there's only one horse in town and it
ain't R! Use Python for these!

For ABM programming, it also depends on what you want to do. My default
choice is NetLogo, even though it’s light weight. I think that for many ABM
problems, a basic “toy-model” can show the idea and the basic emergence of
complexity. For example, in South Africa, where electricity is a big
problem, I made a NetLogo toy model to show the current costs of different
types of electricity production. The model shows that solar and wind with
batteries may be good, but they are outrageously expensive given that peak
demand at 7 pm because battery grid storage is very expensive. So, you
still, unless you're willing to pay so much to cripple the economy, need a
reliable base load. With a simple NetLogo toy model, I could show this idea
easily.

On Mon, 1 May 2023 at 09:02, Russell Standish  wrote:

> On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 06:40:52AM +0200, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> > A few years back, I built a model for a client using AnyLogic. I think
> It was a
> > great choice at the time for that specific application, with its choice
> of
> > simulation modes and build in optimization algorithms. But now, with the
> > explosion of packages in the Python world, I'm not sure if I'd make the
> same
> > choice today.
>
> Interesting comment. Of course, I'm going all-in on Python, and the
> next version of EcoLab will be Python-based, rather than the current
> TCL.
>
>
> >
> > On Mon, 1 May 2023 at 00:06, Russell Standish 
> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone use AnyLogic?
> >
> > Mind you, the requirement to use Java is for me a big detriment, and
> > the main reason I keep using and developing EcoLab.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 04:20:40PM +0200, Pietro Terna wrote:
> > > Currently Repast4Py for parallelization and sometimes pure
> Python in
> > a
> > > Jupyter notebook.
> > >
> > > Best, Pietro
> > >
> > > Il 30/04/23 13:53, Jochen Fromm ha scritto:
> > >
> > > Yes, LLMs give a new boost to agent-based modeling and
> agent-based
> > software
> > > engineering, but it is a totally new class of agents. AutoGPT
> is an
> > example
> > > https://github.com/Significant-Gravitas/Auto-GPT
> > >
> > > What do you think is better to use by the way, Repast4Py or
> Mesa, or
> > just
> > > pure Python in a Jupyter notebook ?
> > >     https://youtu.be/bjjoHji8KUQ
> > >
> > > -J.
> > >
> > >
> > >  Original message 
> > > From: Pietro Terna 
> > > Date: 4/30/23 12:13 PM (GMT+01:00)
> > > To: friam@redfish.com
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm
> > >
> > >Dear all,
> > >
> > >remembering Swarm: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf
> > >
> > > It would seem to be an important step ahead in the field of
> social
> > > simulation. Best, Pietro
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > "It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is
> also a
> > deep truth." Neils Bohr.
> > >
> > > A https://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei
> brevi
> > articoli su temi di attualità.
> > >
> > > Home page: https://terna.to.it  Twitter: https://twitter.com/
> > @pietroterna
> > > Mastodon: https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. ---
> -.. .
> > >

Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-05-01 Thread Russell Standish 
On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 06:40:52AM +0200, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> A few years back, I built a model for a client using AnyLogic. I think It was 
> a
> great choice at the time for that specific application, with its choice of
> simulation modes and build in optimization algorithms. But now, with the
> explosion of packages in the Python world, I'm not sure if I'd make the same
> choice today. 

Interesting comment. Of course, I'm going all-in on Python, and the
next version of EcoLab will be Python-based, rather than the current
TCL.


> 
> On Mon, 1 May 2023 at 00:06, Russell Standish  wrote:
> 
> Anyone use AnyLogic?
> 
> Mind you, the requirement to use Java is for me a big detriment, and
> the main reason I keep using and developing EcoLab.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 04:20:40PM +0200, Pietro Terna wrote:
> >     Currently Repast4Py for parallelization and sometimes pure Python in
> a
> > Jupyter notebook.
> >
> >     Best, Pietro
> >
> > Il 30/04/23 13:53, Jochen Fromm ha scritto:
> >
> >     Yes, LLMs give a new boost to agent-based modeling and agent-based
> software
> >     engineering, but it is a totally new class of agents. AutoGPT is an
> example
> >     https://github.com/Significant-Gravitas/Auto-GPT
> >
> >     What do you think is better to use by the way, Repast4Py or Mesa, or
> just
> >     pure Python in a Jupyter notebook ?
> >     https://youtu.be/bjjoHji8KUQ
> >
> >     -J.
> >
> >
> >      Original message 
> >     From: Pietro Terna 
> >     Date: 4/30/23 12:13 PM (GMT+01:00)
> >     To: friam@redfish.com
> >     Subject: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm
> >
> >            Dear all,
> >
> >        remembering Swarm: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf
> >     
> >     It would seem to be an important step ahead in the field of social
> >     simulation. Best, Pietro
> >
> >     --
> >
> >     "It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a
> deep truth." Neils Bohr.
> >
> >     A https://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei brevi
> articoli su temi di attualità.
> >
> >     Home page: https://terna.to.it  Twitter: https://twitter.com/
> @pietroterna
> >     Mastodon: https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna
> >
> >
> >
> >     -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> >     FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> >     Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> >     to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/
> friam_redfish.com
> >     FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> >     archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/
> friam_redfish.com/
> >       1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > "It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep
> truth." Neils Bohr.
> >
> > A https://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei brevi articoli
> su temi di attualità.
> >
> > Home page: https://terna.to.it  Twitter: 
> https://twitter.com/@pietroterna
> > Mastodon: https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna
> >
> >
> 
> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
> https://
> bit.ly/virtualfriam
> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> > archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/
> friam_redfish.com/
> >   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
> 
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Russell Standish                    Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders     hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>                       http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Ap

Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-04-30 Thread Pieter Steenekamp 
A few years back, I built a model for a client using AnyLogic. I think It
was a great choice at the time for that specific application, with its
choice of simulation modes and build in optimization algorithms. But now,
with the explosion of packages in the Python world, I'm not sure if I'd
make the same choice today.

On Mon, 1 May 2023 at 00:06, Russell Standish  wrote:

> Anyone use AnyLogic?
>
> Mind you, the requirement to use Java is for me a big detriment, and
> the main reason I keep using and developing EcoLab.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 04:20:40PM +0200, Pietro Terna wrote:
> > Currently Repast4Py for parallelization and sometimes pure Python in
> a
> > Jupyter notebook.
> >
> > Best, Pietro
> >
> > Il 30/04/23 13:53, Jochen Fromm ha scritto:
> >
> > Yes, LLMs give a new boost to agent-based modeling and agent-based
> software
> > engineering, but it is a totally new class of agents. AutoGPT is an
> example
> > https://github.com/Significant-Gravitas/Auto-GPT
> >
> > What do you think is better to use by the way, Repast4Py or Mesa, or
> just
> > pure Python in a Jupyter notebook ?
> > https://youtu.be/bjjoHji8KUQ
> >
> > -J.
> >
> >
> >  Original message ----
> > From: Pietro Terna 
> > Date: 4/30/23 12:13 PM (GMT+01:00)
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm
> >
> >Dear all,
> >
> >remembering Swarm: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf
> >
> > It would seem to be an important step ahead in the field of social
> > simulation. Best, Pietro
> >
> > --
> >
> > "It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a
> deep truth." Neils Bohr.
> >
> > A https://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei brevi
> articoli su temi di attualità.
> >
> > Home page: https://terna.to.it  Twitter:
> https://twitter.com/@pietroterna
> > Mastodon: https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna
> >
> >
> >
> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> > to (un)subscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> > archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> >   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > "It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep
> truth." Neils Bohr.
> >
> > A https://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei brevi
> articoli su temi di attualità.
> >
> > Home page: https://terna.to.it  Twitter:
> https://twitter.com/@pietroterna
> > Mastodon: https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna
> >
> >
>
> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> > archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> >   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> --
>
>
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>   http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
> 
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-04-30 Thread Russell Standish 
Anyone use AnyLogic?

Mind you, the requirement to use Java is for me a big detriment, and
the main reason I keep using and developing EcoLab.

Cheers

On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 04:20:40PM +0200, Pietro Terna wrote:
>     Currently Repast4Py for parallelization and sometimes pure Python in a
> Jupyter notebook.
> 
>     Best, Pietro
> 
> Il 30/04/23 13:53, Jochen Fromm ha scritto:
> 
> Yes, LLMs give a new boost to agent-based modeling and agent-based 
> software
> engineering, but it is a totally new class of agents. AutoGPT is an 
> example
> https://github.com/Significant-Gravitas/Auto-GPT
> 
> What do you think is better to use by the way, Repast4Py or Mesa, or just
> pure Python in a Jupyter notebook ?
> https://youtu.be/bjjoHji8KUQ
> 
> -J.
> 
> 
>  Original message 
> From: Pietro Terna 
> Date: 4/30/23 12:13 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm
> 
>        Dear all,
> 
>    remembering Swarm: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf
>  
> It would seem to be an important step ahead in the field of social
> simulation. Best, Pietro
> 
> --
> 
> "It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep 
> truth." Neils Bohr.
> 
> A https://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei brevi articoli 
> su temi di attualità.
> 
> Home page: https://terna.to.it  Twitter: https://twitter.com/@pietroterna
> Mastodon: https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna
> 
> 
> 
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present 
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
> 
> 
> --
> 
> "It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep 
> truth." Neils Bohr.
> 
> A https://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei brevi articoli su 
> temi di attualità.
> 
> Home page: https://terna.to.it  Twitter: https://twitter.com/@pietroterna
> Mastodon: https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna
> 
> 

> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present 
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  http://www.hpcoders.com.au


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-04-30 Thread Pietro Terna 
    Currently Repast4Py for parallelization and sometimes pure Python 
in a Jupyter notebook.


    Best, Pietro

Il 30/04/23 13:53, Jochen Fromm ha scritto:
Yes, LLMs give a new boost to agent-based modeling and agent-based 
software engineering, but it is a totally new class of agents. AutoGPT 
is an example

https://github.com/Significant-Gravitas/Auto-GPT

What do you think is better to use by the way, Repast4Py or Mesa, or 
just pure Python in a Jupyter notebook ?

https://youtu.be/bjjoHji8KUQ

-J.


 Original message 
From: Pietro Terna 
Date: 4/30/23 12:13 PM (GMT+01:00)
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

       Dear all,

   remembering Swarm: https:// 
<https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf>arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf 
<https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf>

<https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf>
It would seem to be an important step ahead in the field of social 
simulation. Best, Pietro

--

"It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep truth." 
Neils Bohr.

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--

"It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep truth." 
Neils Bohr.

Ahttps://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html  riporto dei miei brevi articoli su 
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Re: [FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-04-30 Thread Jochen Fromm 
Yes, LLMs give a new boost to agent-based modeling and agent-based software 
engineering, but it is a totally new class of agents. AutoGPT is an 
examplehttps://github.com/Significant-Gravitas/Auto-GPTWhat do you think is 
better to use by the way, Repast4Py or Mesa, or just pure Python in a Jupyter 
notebook ?https://youtu.be/bjjoHji8KUQ-J.
 Original message From: Pietro Terna  
Date: 4/30/23  12:13 PM  (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: [FRIAM] 
remembering Swarm 
       Dear all,
  
     remembering Swarm: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf
It would seem to be an important step ahead in the field of social 
simulation.

Best, Pietro

-- 

"It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep truth." 
Neils Bohr.

A https://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html riporto dei miei brevi articoli su 
temi di attualità.

Home page: https://terna.to.it  Twitter: https://twitter.com/@pietroterna
Mastodon: https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna


  

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[FRIAM] remembering Swarm

2023-04-30 Thread Pietro Terna 

       Dear all,

   remembering Swarm: https:// 
arxiv.org/pdf/2304.03442.pdf 



It would seem to be an important step ahead in the field of social 
simulation. Best, Pietro


--

"It is the hallmark of any deep truth that its negation is also a deep truth." 
Neils Bohr.

Ahttps://terna.to.it/breviArticoli.html  riporto dei miei brevi articoli su 
temi di attualità.

Home page:https://terna.to.it   Twitter:https://twitter.com/@pietroterna
Mastodon:https://mastodon.uno/@PietroTerna
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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