Thanks Jack: If we could expand on what you said I think we would have a firm foundation. You have grasped the essence of what I have been attempting to say. In reference to the "tourtured philosophy" one of the most interesting books I have read in a long time is Mortimer J Adler's "10 Philosophical Mistakes" (1982?) Jack's post follows: ======================== Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:23:12 -0500 (EST) From: Jack Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: john courtneidge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: The two essential features of the capitalist system On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, john courtneidge wrote: > >Part of Ed's post begs a reply. > > > > > Dictionary definitions of capitalism highlight two essential features of the > capitalist system: that the factors necessary for the production of those > commodities necessary for human life are in private ownership and that these > factors are used for private benefit (or 'profit'). Maybe a new formulation, starting from scratch, or somewhere less convoluted than the outcomes of two centuries of tortured philosophy. Start with the concept of value and a concept of value transaction. Commerce, capital, common good, public and private, the information environment, and purposes of human interaction. See what you can build from those building blocks.