Re: FVWM: Session management.

[Didier Spaier]

Le 02/10/2017 à 15:59, Thomas Adam a écrit :
> All in all, there's no session manager support in WindowMaker, but it tries
> its best to do whatever it can internally.
Yes, adn I was not looking for something better. 
>> If the user have to interrupt her work and wants to get it back in
>> the same state later, she can click Save Session then leave, either with
>> Quit (stopping FVWM and X) or through an external logout feature (in 
>> Slint lxlogout for LXDE, wm-logout for the WMs used standalone.)
> 
> I understand what Session Management is.

I never had a doubt about that ;)

I only wrote the above paragraph to make clear what I wished for all
people reading this thread (and also for myself, to be honest).

>> On the other hand, if you choose not to (re)develop this feature I'd
>> suggest to edit the man page, as reading it made me think that session
>> management was still available as described above. Maybe I just
>> misunderstood this man pages as English is not my native language, but
>> I guess and hope that I am not the only user in this category.
> 
> You're the only one to ask in all these years.  I'll take a look later on to
> see if I think there's anything worth changing.

I think it would save time for users to clearly know what can and what
can not do FVWM with respect to session management. But I understand
that edit this man page also takes time and that you have to set
priorities.

> I hope my explanations here help you understand the situation with FVWM, and
> why it's perceived to be working in other window managers (but is still
> fundamentally broken).

I am not sure to understand all the technical details because of my lack
of knowledge. Anyway, thanks Thomas for having taken the time to answer
my request and for providing one of the best, and in some respects the
best, window manager.

Cheers,

Didier

Re: FVWM: Session management.

[Thomas Adam]

On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 12:12:12PM -0500, Brian wrote:
> It would seem that the other "major" DE's and application
> developers aren't following the XSM standard from your comment and
> instead are developing toward Wayland.  In your opinion Is that the case
> or is it that systemd and Wayland are now supporting the application
> window and session management? Inquiring newbie minds would like to
> know, because at some point I believe FVWM will need to address the
> Wayland Server integration issue and would that then support session

Wayland has nothing to do with session management.  The change FVWM would have
to go through is to be DBus aware, since this seems to be the way the DE
session managers are going; although I consider this a pointless change.

I'm also rather cynical of the need for session management these days.  In the
days of olde, this was a way of reducing the overhead of starting
applications.  But given EWMH and the fact most applications now remember
their geometry, and the fact that computing power is greater, I think it's all
rather becoming moot.

> management?  In other words, is it true that FVWM development has
> decided to not develop with Wayland in mind, or is it a matter of the
> GNU/Linux distribution will need to provide the Wayland server with X
> support so that FVWM will continue to function?  Or is FVWM going to

So there's always going to be a compatibility layer between X and Wayland,
assuming Wayland is something which ever replaces X11; dubious about that, to
be honest.

> take the approach of Lumina and try to make the calls to hardware
> directly, bypassing X and Wayland servers?

FVWM would be a different beast on top of Wayland; not least of which with CSD
(Client-side Decorations) and compositing, for instance.  I even foresee a lot
of FVWM's functionality becoming redundant on top of Wayland.  FVWM currently
is a museum piece on X11-handling, showcasing a number of special cases for
troublesome applications, the likes of which aren't catered for in other
window managers.  A lot of this wouldn't be required.

-- Thomas Adam

Re: FVWM: Session management.

[John McCue]

On Sun, Oct 01, 2017 at 12:52:22AM +0200, Didier Spaier wrote:

Hi,


Hello,

I like very much FVWM, especially the ability it gives the user to
easily manage individually a big number of windows.

But I would like that the users of the Slint Linux distribution that
I maintain be able to save and restore their sessions.

Seeing in the man page:

SESSION MANAGEMENT
Fvwm supports session management according to the X Session Management
Protocol.  It saves and restores window position, size, stacking order,
desk, stickiness, shadiness, maximizedness, iconifiedness for all
windows.  Furthermore, some global state is saved.

and the associated Session Management Commands, I understand that in the
most recent version at least, (2.6.7) these features are provided only
in association with an external session manager.

Is this correct or do I miss something?

This is an issue for Slint that ships FVWM standalone (with lxpanel) and
also inside a LXDE desktop, because:
1) lxsession, component of LXDE is not able to manage sessions despite
its name, and the less "light" session managers that I am aware of are
tightly associated  with a desktop that we don't ship.
2) I wish that users have the choice to use FVWM in a full desktop as
well as standalone.

So my dream would be that FVWM act as its own session manager, as does
WindowMaker. As a reminder, even when used standalone it the latter can
manage its own sessions (example of saved session attached).

Or maybe I miss something and that's already possible also with FVWM?


have you see this ?

http://linuxgazette.net/100/adam.html

But not sure how helpful that would be
since IIRC slint is taylored for accessibility



Also, as a fallback are you aware of a an external window manager able
to cooperate with FVWM and having very few dependencies?


This I do not know



Best regards,

Didier




John

Re: FVWM: Session management.

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Sonntag, 1. Oktober 2017 schrieb Didier Spaier:
> Hello,
> 
> I like very much FVWM, especially the ability it gives the user to
> easily manage individually a big number of windows.
> 
> But I would like that the users of the Slint Linux distribution that
> I maintain be able to save and restore their sessions.
> 
> Seeing in the man page:
> 
> SESSION MANAGEMENT
>  Fvwm supports session management according to the X Session Management
>  Protocol.  It saves and restores window position, size, stacking order,
>  desk, stickiness, shadiness, maximizedness, iconifiedness for all
>  windows.  Furthermore, some global state is saved.
> 
> and the associated Session Management Commands, I understand that in the
> most recent version at least, (2.6.7) these features are provided only
> in association with an external session manager.
> 
> Is this correct or do I miss something?
> 
> This is an issue for Slint that ships FVWM standalone (with lxpanel) and
> also inside a LXDE desktop, because:
> 1) lxsession, component of LXDE is not able to manage sessions despite
> its name, and the less "light" session managers that I am aware of are
> tightly associated  with a desktop that we don't ship.
> 2) I wish that users have the choice to use FVWM in a full desktop as
> well as standalone.
> 
> So my dream would be that FVWM act as its own session manager, as does
> WindowMaker. As a reminder, even when used standalone it the latter can
> manage its own sessions (example of saved session attached).
> 
> Or maybe I miss something and that's already possible also with FVWM?
> 
> Also, as a fallback are you aware of a an external window manager able
> to cooperate with FVWM and having very few dependencies?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Didier
> 

As far as I have experienced, most "modern" application that use GNOME or KDE 
framework do not support  X Session Management despite their window positions. 
Anything more sofisticated does not work, GNOME applications do not support 
KDEs session managemant and vice versa. "konsole" from KDE does not resore its 
tabs under GNOME, "terminator" does not resore its split screen and tabs under 
KDE or GNOME ... As far as I have experienced session management, it's quite 
broken today.

Nik



-- 
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA, CIA ...

Re: FVWM: Session management.

[Jaimos Skriletz]

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 4:52 PM, Didier Spaier  wrote:
> Also, as a fallback are you aware of a an external window manager able
> to cooperate with FVWM and having very few dependencies?
>

Have you read this older article, http://linuxgazette.net/100/adam.html?

Maybe xsm will work for your needs, the info about the gnome session
manager is most likely out dated in that article though.

jaimos

Re: FVWM: Session management.

[Didier Spaier]

Le 01/10/2017 à 00:52, Didier Spaier a écrit :
> Also, as a fallback are you aware of a an external window manager able
> to cooperate with FVWM and having very few dependencies?

s/window manager/session manager/, sorry.