Re: ADC to DVI Adaptor
Thanks for the link Ted. I currently have a 5200 in there... thoughts on an upgrade path? On Nov 11, 6:27 am, Geke gevangaste...@googlemail.com wrote: You could also put in an extra (used) graphic card in a PCI slot. Those are really cheap. But if you're not that tight, you could consider replacing the current AGP card by a better one. I don't know how good the factory-installed cards in the G5 are, but when I wanted to connect a DVI monitor to my Digital Audio (G4), I found that ADC-DVI adapters cost almost the same as upgrading to an ATI Radeon 9000 card having simultaneous ADC and DVI output. Ted Treen wrote: looking for an ADC-DVI adaptor at the moment.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: ADC to DVI Adaptor
From: Trickster peter.mccullo...@gmail.com To: G-Group g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, 12 November, 2010 15:41:02 Subject: Re: ADC to DVI Adaptor Thanks for the link Ted. I currently have a 5200 in there... thoughts on an upgrade path? My G5 has a 256MB 9650 in there:- The Mac's an early 2005 Dual 2.0 which I bought used, so I don't know if it was a BTO or after sale upgrade, but it does have 2 x DVD connectors (one is dual-link), no ADC or anything odd. There's a new one on ebay in Ireland, item #200538373020 but it's quite a price. Have a look at everymac:- http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/index-powermac-g5.html which will show what was used in all the various options, and you should be able to find a good card on ebay or LEMSwap Ted On Nov 11, 6:27 am, Geke gevangaste...@googlemail.com wrote: You could also put in an extra (used) graphic card in a PCI slot. Those are really cheap. But if you're not that tight, you could consider replacing the current AGP card by a better one. I don't know how good the factory-installed cards in the G5 are, but when I wanted to connect a DVI monitor to my Digital Audio (G4), I found that ADC-DVI adapters cost almost the same as upgrading to an ATI Radeon 9000 card having simultaneous ADC and DVI output. Ted Treen wrote: looking for an ADC-DVI adaptor at the moment.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: ADC to DVI Adaptor
On 2010/11/12 09:04, Ted Treen so eloquently wrote: it does have 2 x DVD connectors (one is dual-link) How can you tell that one is dual-link and the other is not? I have a 6800 Ultra that is dual-link but I don't know if it's just on one port or both. Tina -- iMac 20 USB 2 1.25GHz G4 2GB RAM GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR Gnome/Ubuntu 10.10 Power Mac June 04 2GHz G5DP 8GB RAM GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL 256MB Leopard 10.5.8 PowerBook G4 15 HiRes DLSD 1.67GHz G4 2GB RAM Radeon 9700 128MB DDR Leopard 10.5.8 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: ADC to DVI Adaptor
On 11/12/10 10:26 AM, Tina K. wrote: On 2010/11/12 09:04, Ted Treen so eloquently wrote: it does have 2 x DVD connectors (one is dual-link) How can you tell that one is dual-link and the other is not? I have a 6800 Ultra that is dual-link but I don't know if it's just on one port or both. Tina Try this link http://www.pacificcable.com/DVI_Tutorial.htm -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: ADC to DVI Adaptor
On 2010/11/12 09:42, Charles Lenington so eloquently wrote: On 11/12/10 10:26 AM, Tina K. wrote: On 2010/11/12 09:04, Ted Treen so eloquently wrote: it does have 2 x DVD connectors (one is dual-link) How can you tell that one is dual-link and the other is not? I have a 6800 Ultra that is dual-link but I don't know if it's just on one port or both. Tina Try this link http://www.pacificcable.com/DVI_Tutorial.htm Thank you for the link Charles, I had no idea you could tell just by looking at the connector. Tina -- iMac 20 USB 2 1.25GHz G4 2GB RAM GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR Gnome/Ubuntu 10.10 Power Mac June 04 2GHz G5DP 8GB RAM GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL 256MB Leopard 10.5.8 PowerBook G4 15 HiRes DLSD 1.67GHz G4 2GB RAM Radeon 9700 128MB DDR Leopard 10.5.8 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
G5 Dual processors not bad?
I have a PM G5 Dual 2.7 that I just replaced the heat sink on. It had leaked and I was able to catch it before it did any real damage. After I did the installation I booted ASD 2.5.8 and the Calibration page said that calibration wasn't needed. Also I have Hardware Monitor and all the temps and pump RPM's are correct. But just for laughs I went back and ran the ASD fan calibration to see what it would say and to my surprise it said that I need to replace both processors which I'm thinking this is not correct because every thing seems to be working properly, the fans sound like they're cycling correctly and all the other tests pass. Can this be because the heat sink is not the original and the report is false? John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my TiBook 667 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Thermal Compound Question
On Nov 4, 2010, at 8:09 AM, ah...clem wrote: On Nov 4, 12:16 am, Tina K. penguir...@gmail.com wrote: That might not be the case, I do remember some Apple model being manufactured with too much thermal paste by mistake, but I don't remember which model it was. that was clearly a manufacturing mistake. i had a PB G4 1.67 hi-res model, and the processor burned out. when i disassembled it, i discovered that there were gobs and gobs of the thermal paste. WAY too much, and that undoubtedly contributed to the failure. i scraped chunks off the heatsink and when i replaced the mobo i used the proper amount, and it is still going strong. I have found this thicker blue paste on just about all the G4 PowerBooks and DVI model Titanium Powerbooks, pretty hard to clean off also, In fact most of the heat sinks are covered completely with the paste beyond the processor. It seems all the Apple factory assembled units have a pretty thick paste compared to the compounds most of us buy and use. Plus in a lot of cases the fans will usually let you know if your paste job is bad, it's an indication I forgot again to apply it :-) The desktops on the other hand are different in the type and amount of paste used so I think there must be some reason for this leading me to believe that ambient expansion and flexibility are an issue in keeping a good contact with the processor and heat sink, hence the spring loading on the desktop models that would be impractical on the PowerBooks. John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my TiBook 667 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Thermal Compound Question
On Nov 4, 2010, at 11:06 AM, Peter Haas wrote: On Nov 4, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Albert Carter wrote: I wouldn't necessary recommend using Pin-Sol or Water to clean a processor. After wiping away the old paste with alcohol 99%. I use a Contact Cleaner and Wash spray product from Fry's Electronics,It cleans and dries fast with no residue. The Pin-Sol sounds like an OK product especially on the PB units with the thicker and stickier pastes, some of that stuff is hard to get off. John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my TiBook 667 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Excel printing mystery
Excel printing mystery Spread sheets will print correctly when the printer icon in the Excel tool bar is selected, yet the Mac reports the application Excel quit unexpectedly when the printing method of file-print is selected from the Mac menu or or command P shortcut is used. Any ideas as to where the problem might be? Don Wakefield DTPetc! (DeskTop Productions et cetera!) Ballwin, Missouri, USA -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Blueberry iMac
On Nov 5, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote: On Nov 5, 2010, at 1:05 PM, Dennis Myhand wrote: I have just locked on to a Blueberry iMac with Blueberry keyboard and Blueberry puck mouse. How difficult is it to upgrade these? It looks like a sealed unit. Do I need special tools? Thanks, Dennis Not too hard to open up I can send a instruction file off-list if you want. A Logitech optical mouse with scroll wheel is good and a 7200 RPM HDD with 2 512 MB sticks of RAM is also something worth while and if you really want to go nuts There is a serial port card made back in the day that is rare but keeps those legacy printers going, it's made by GeeThree called Stealth Serial card. Look around for a DVD ROM and an AirPort card also don't forget about the ability to run OS 8.6, OS 9.2.2 and Tiger all on the same machine. JOHN CARMONNE Yorba Linda USA Sent from my Wally 10.4.11 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: More Strange Stuff On A G5 iMac
On Nov 7, 2010, at 6:59 AM, AndersFager wrote: I'm trying to get this iMac G5 to start from an installer disc in order to format the new drive. And now I have a black screen with a little blinking white square in the upper left corner. It feels like the damned thing has gone Win 3.0 on me. What can be done in this enviroment? Did you reseat the RAM? Do you get a beep sound at startup? John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my MBP -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Update on Kernel Panics on G4
On Nov 7, 2010, at 1:33 PM, Bill Connelly wrote: On Nov 7, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Bill Connelly wrote: On Nov 7, 2010, at 1:54 PM, smac0031 wrote: I have a hardware test CD that came with my digital audio G4 and tried to run it on this computer but it wouldn't go. Oh well. I think you can find the AHT for your specific computer on Apple's Support site. Maybe someone can point you to it, and how to make a CD for its use. Congrats on updating the ROM. Here's a link to some of the Image files: http://www.info.apple.com/support/aht.html The AHT's that I've dealt with will not work on a machine that has had a processor change from the original. This may be the problem. Even though the AHT is designated to check more than one model in the series of Mac's. I have a G4 MDD that I upgraded the Dual 1.0 GB to Dual 1.25 and the AHT's don't work, I've had the exact same result on the TiBooks and Cubes. This leads me to think there must be a ROM some where on the machine that knows the serial number. John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my MBP -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: G5 Shutdown issues
On Nov 7, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Clark Martin wrote: On Nov 7, 2010, at 6:49 PM, DLC wrote: Greetings all, I have two G5 towers in our lab (1.8GHz DP-late 2004 models) running 10.5.8. They have both suddenly acquired the habit of not wanting to shut down. When instructed, the Desktop dismounts, the Dock folds down and then they just sit there. A force shutdown is what needs to be done at that moment. All other operations are fine. I've zapped PRAM and NVRAM, booted single-user, and restored disk permissions. I've looked on the Apple support site for related articles with no success; perhaps someone knows of one that addresses this issue? Yes, there is one PCI card in each unit (USB expansion card), but they've been there for a couple years with no issues. Thanks for any thoughts or possible solutions. I would run DiskWarrior on it, some of my iMac G3's like to do this once in a while. John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my MBP -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Blueberry iMac
On Nov 8, 6:14 pm, Dennis Myhand dmyh...@suddenlink.net wrote: Okay, I do have a Revision D 333MHz G-3, and I guess it is Purple. I depends on the light. That's my problem, too. It looks kinda indigo blue sometimes, and sometimes it's more like violet. I'm a tad color blind, too: dark blue and deep purple tones tend to blur and run together for me. I guess I'll never know. Nothing to be too sad about, though. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Blueberry iMac
On Nov 8, 6:14 pm, Dennis Myhand dmyh...@suddenlink.net wrote: Okay, I do have a Revision D 333MHz G-3, and I guess it is Purple. I depends on the light. Going back to the upgrading part, this model can take up to 512MB of RAM, and a hard drive up to 128GB. It does not require any special tools or particular know-how, other than following dead-easy instructions. You can make it wireless with a USB wifi adapter --make sure it's USB 1.0 compatible, though. It is not a fast machine by any standard, but usable. Mine served as a bedroom iTunes jukebox for years, until it was replaced by my Pismo. F -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Trying to bring a partition back to life
On Nov 9, 2010, at 6:29 PM, MaGioZal wrote: Hi, I am currently running Mac OS 9 and 10.4 on a Beige G3 PowerMac, and recently the biggest, non-booting partition which contained alot of softwares and data (from which I didn't make backup...:-/) just died down after some forced shutdowns. I've tried 3 different tools of disk recovery, but I've got no results, as can be seen on the gallery: http://www.facebook.com/album.php? aid=242341id=600905786l=1d59b51309 (the captions are in that strange language called Portuguese, but the screenshots are in English. ;-)) Well, the big quetion is: qaht can I do now to rescue this partition? Is there any free alternative or just DiskWarrior can help? Best regards, DiskWarrior would be my first choice, I've also used Data Rescue 3 demo for a small volume. JOHN CARMONNE Yorba Linda USA From my Wally G4 500 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Trying to bring a partition back to life
On Nov 10, 2010, at 10:07 AM, Bill Connelly wrote: On Nov 10, 2010, at 12:00 AM, onelucent wrote: Actually, in OS 9, I have had good luck with Disk Doctor. It may take multiple runs, each time getting a little further. I may skip Media Check so it concentrates on the Disk Directory. Usually, the hardest thing is to capture the partition, so don't give up. Often, Norton will capture (i.e. mount) a partition that Disk First Aid can't. Yes, Disk Warrior is good, best run from the CD itself, if possible. Lastly, for OS 9, you still have some mounting utilities. Again, they often capture a partition that Disk First Aid can't in my experience. Good luck. If you use an OS 9 Utility on a disk partitioned and maintained by OS X, I believe it could easily mess things up badly for OS X. Guru's advice needed ... Never run Norton Disk Doctor on a drive that has OSX on it, the damage will probably be beyond repair. But Data Rescue 3 probably can get the info off, then wipe the HDD and restore. John Carmonne Yorba Linda USA Sent from my TiBook 667 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Excel printing mystery
On Nov 5, 2010, at 8:42 AM, Don Wakefield wrote: Excel printing mystery Spread sheets will print correctly when the printer icon in the Excel tool bar is selected, yet the Mac reports the application Excel quit unexpectedly when the printing method of file-print is selected from the Mac menu or or command P shortcut is used. Any ideas as to where the problem might be? Mac OS version, Excel version? I dimly recall having run into this in the past. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: ADC to DVI Adaptor
On Nov 12, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Tina K. wrote: On 2010/11/12 09:42, Charles Lenington so eloquently wrote: On 11/12/10 10:26 AM, Tina K. wrote: On 2010/11/12 09:04, Ted Treen so eloquently wrote: it does have 2 x DVD connectors (one is dual-link) How can you tell that one is dual-link and the other is not? I have a 6800 Ultra that is dual-link but I don't know if it's just on one port or both. Tina Try this link http://www.pacificcable.com/DVI_Tutorial.htm Thank you for the link Charles, I had no idea you could tell just by looking at the connector. T Here's another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Excel printing mystery
On Nov 5, 2010, at 8:42 AM, Don Wakefield wrote: Excel printing mystery Spread sheets will print correctly when the printer icon in the Excel tool bar is selected, yet the Mac reports the application Excel quit unexpectedly when the printing method of file-print is selected from the Mac menu or or command P shortcut is used. Any ideas as to where the problem might be? I'd say right inside Excel. There should be no functional difference between those methods. I'd suggest re-installing Excel. If it persists I would suspect some third party menu utility or the like. Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Excel printing mystery
That dim memory finally rose out of the memory swamps like Luke's X-wingand it turns out that it was an issue in Excel for the PC dealing with Postscript printers that I was remembering, so was completely not this issuedo this: (presuming the Mac is running a newer version of OS X) Start in safe mode: hold down the shift key while booting. This clears a bunch of caches that could be causing the problem. You can just restart again from the login screen and test printing. Uninstall office using the Office removal tool (for Office 2004 and 2008) these are on the installer CD, then re-install, and make sure all the Office updates are re-installed as well. If THIS doesn't work, come back here, I have a wonderful chicken recipe you'll want to use after getting the feathers to shake at the computer in an ancient voodoo ritual :-P Silly suggestion: you HAVE tried printing in other programs and you're sure it's not the printing subsystem on the Mac, right? The difference between the icon and the File-Print menu is that the icon bypasses some of the printing stuff and send the job straight to the default queue. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
