Re: g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT
Hi Alpha, please search the archives of this list. Especially for October/Nov/Dec 2008. The entire corpus of the final arguements have been posted here by Arvind and ALF. It is very comprehensive and very interesting to read. Best, Aditya B 2009/6/22 Alpha Leonis canes@gmail.com Hmm ... I can understand prashan'ts view but I don't agree ... To bring big change, we have to start off somewhere right ? and removal of 377 is just a start ... if it happens it will give courage to our community. You cannot expect things to fall from heaven and everything will be legalized in one shot. We must go step by step. Lots of arguments must have gone in courtrooms. I have one request. After the virdict, court will publish entire book of arguments and all ... if possible make it available, electronically, for everybody to read. So we can also get an idea of how arguments were done. Rgds, -Alpha Leonis On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:46 PM, Manoj zeus200...@yahoo.com wrote: The govt should this The courts should do that ppl shud not wear masks what is there today is wrong what is going to happen is as bad if not more. rt? but then as an individual how are you carrying the stone on which the foundation is sought to be built? Wanna have a secure house.?lift the stone to build it n not cast on others. Manoj --- On *Thu, 18/6/09, Prashant p...@yahoo.com* wrote: From: Prashant p...@yahoo.com Subject: g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT To: gayde...@googlegroups.com Cc: gay_bombay@yahoogroups.com, GayAhmedabad gayahmeda...@googlegroups.com, GayBangalore gaybangal...@googlegroups.com, GayBombay gaybom...@googlrgroups.com, GayBombay Blogger gaybombay.sasha1...@blogger.com, GayBombayGroup gaybombaygr...@yahoogroups.com, Gaycalcutta gaycalcu...@googlegroups.com, gaycalcuttagr...@yahoogroups.com, GayChennai gaychen...@googlegroups.com, GayDelhi gayde...@googlegroups.com, GayIndia gayin...@googlegroups.com, time84x...@post. wordpress. com time84x...@post.wordpress.com Date: Thursday, 18 June, 2009, 5:57 PM I think 377 may be removed any time now, may be next month when the courts open after summer vacations or a little later. The hearing in the Delhi High Court was over in October, 2008 and only verdict has to come. The proceedings and the attitude of the judges during the last 4-5 days of hearing made it clear that 377 will be removed. They only have to see that there is no law and order problem the day verdict comes. They will have to make some police arrangement before verdict is announced. The court might inform the government in advance to make suitable arrangements. However, I do not think that removal of 377 is going to help Indian gay community in any way. Indian homosexuals will not be able to surface out and start living with their partners openly after 377 is removed. Homosexuality will keep operating as a hidden and underground sub-culture in India as usual. In fact, 377 has already been removed in practice. The government of India is not enforcing it now. They allow flavoured condoms meant for oral sex to be manufactured and marketed openly, they install condom vending machines in military barracks for soldiers who have anal sex with each other since they remain away from their wives for prolonged periods, all gay sites remain openly accessible in India, gay parties openly allowed in metros, gay men remaining openly involved in sexual activities in city parks in Mumbai when cops turning a blind eye to them and so on. IPC 377 now exists on paper only. Whether we remove it from paper or not is immaterial. The Sri Lankan Government has even said to its gay community that we are not enforcing law banning anal sex, so they can have anal sex if they want. What we want is the acceptability of homosexuality in India which will come through education. The government must publicize the findings of medical science about homosexuality in India through newspapers, radio, TV etc. and other means of mass communication. The government must heavily advertise that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and it is a normal human behaviour. The Government should also launch special drives so that married gay men come out in the open and take divorce from their wives. Making same-sex Marriage Law is the first step in creating the acceptability of homosexuals in the society. Nothing less than this will work. Nepal's Supreme Court has already ordered Nepal Government to make Same-sex Marriage Law within 6 months. Since 6 months are already over, somebody might now file a contempt petition in the court to remind the Government to make the law. Nepal is presently going on under political turmoil; otherwise the law might already have been made by now. Removal of 377 only helps in establishing the existence of male homosexuals in the society. The Government of India has already accepted our existence but a common man has yet
Re: g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT
okie.. Rgds, -Alpha Leonis On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Aditya Bondyopadhyay adit.b...@gmail.comwrote: Hi Alpha, please search the archives of this list. Especially for October/Nov/Dec 2008. The entire corpus of the final arguements have been posted here by Arvind and ALF. It is very comprehensive and very interesting to read. Best, Aditya B 2009/6/22 Alpha Leonis canes@gmail.com Hmm ... I can understand prashan'ts view but I don't agree ... To bring big change, we have to start off somewhere right ? and removal of 377 is just a start ... if it happens it will give courage to our community. You cannot expect things to fall from heaven and everything will be legalized in one shot. We must go step by step. Lots of arguments must have gone in courtrooms. I have one request. After the virdict, court will publish entire book of arguments and all ... if possible make it available, electronically, for everybody to read. So we can also get an idea of how arguments were done. Rgds, -Alpha Leonis On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:46 PM, Manoj zeus200...@yahoo.com wrote: The govt should this The courts should do that ppl shud not wear masks what is there today is wrong what is going to happen is as bad if not more. rt? but then as an individual how are you carrying the stone on which the foundation is sought to be built? Wanna have a secure house.?lift the stone to build it n not cast on others. Manoj --- On *Thu, 18/6/09, Prashant p...@yahoo.com* wrote: From: Prashant p...@yahoo.com Subject: g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT To: gayde...@googlegroups.com Cc: gay_bombay@yahoogroups.com, GayAhmedabad gayahmeda...@googlegroups.com, GayBangalore gaybangal...@googlegroups.com, GayBombay gaybom...@googlrgroups.com, GayBombay Blogger gaybombay.sasha1...@blogger.com, GayBombayGroup gaybombaygr...@yahoogroups.com, Gaycalcutta gaycalcu...@googlegroups.com, gaycalcuttagr...@yahoogroups.com, GayChennai gaychen...@googlegroups.com, GayDelhi gayde...@googlegroups.com, GayIndia gayin...@googlegroups.com, time84x...@post. wordpress. com time84x...@post.wordpress.com Date: Thursday, 18 June, 2009, 5:57 PM I think 377 may be removed any time now, may be next month when the courts open after summer vacations or a little later. The hearing in the Delhi High Court was over in October, 2008 and only verdict has to come. The proceedings and the attitude of the judges during the last 4-5 days of hearing made it clear that 377 will be removed. They only have to see that there is no law and order problem the day verdict comes. They will have to make some police arrangement before verdict is announced. The court might inform the government in advance to make suitable arrangements. However, I do not think that removal of 377 is going to help Indian gay community in any way. Indian homosexuals will not be able to surface out and start living with their partners openly after 377 is removed. Homosexuality will keep operating as a hidden and underground sub-culture in India as usual. In fact, 377 has already been removed in practice. The government of India is not enforcing it now. They allow flavoured condoms meant for oral sex to be manufactured and marketed openly, they install condom vending machines in military barracks for soldiers who have anal sex with each other since they remain away from their wives for prolonged periods, all gay sites remain openly accessible in India, gay parties openly allowed in metros, gay men remaining openly involved in sexual activities in city parks in Mumbai when cops turning a blind eye to them and so on. IPC 377 now exists on paper only. Whether we remove it from paper or not is immaterial. The Sri Lankan Government has even said to its gay community that we are not enforcing law banning anal sex, so they can have anal sex if they want. What we want is the acceptability of homosexuality in India which will come through education. The government must publicize the findings of medical science about homosexuality in India through newspapers, radio, TV etc. and other means of mass communication. The government must heavily advertise that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and it is a normal human behaviour. The Government should also launch special drives so that married gay men come out in the open and take divorce from their wives. Making same-sex Marriage Law is the first step in creating the acceptability of homosexuals in the society. Nothing less than this will work. Nepal's Supreme Court has already ordered Nepal Government to make Same-sex Marriage Law within 6 months. Since 6 months are already over, somebody might now file a contempt petition in the court to remind the Government to make the law. Nepal is presently going on under political turmoil; otherwise the law might already have been made by now. Removal of 377 only helps in establishing the existence of male
Re: g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT
Hmm ... I can understand prashan'ts view but I don't agree ... To bring big change, we have to start off somewhere right ? and removal of 377 is just a start ... if it happens it will give courage to our community. You cannot expect things to fall from heaven and everything will be legalized in one shot. We must go step by step. Lots of arguments must have gone in courtrooms. I have one request. After the virdict, court will publish entire book of arguments and all ... if possible make it available, electronically, for everybody to read. So we can also get an idea of how arguments were done. Rgds, -Alpha Leonis On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:46 PM, Manoj zeus200...@yahoo.com wrote: The govt should this The courts should do that ppl shud not wear masks what is there today is wrong what is going to happen is as bad if not more. rt? but then as an individual how are you carrying the stone on which the foundation is sought to be built? Wanna have a secure house.?lift the stone to build it n not cast on others. Manoj --- On *Thu, 18/6/09, Prashant p...@yahoo.com* wrote: From: Prashant p...@yahoo.com Subject: g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT To: gayde...@googlegroups.com Cc: gay_bombay@yahoogroups.com, GayAhmedabad gayahmeda...@googlegroups.com, GayBangalore gaybangal...@googlegroups.com, GayBombay gaybom...@googlrgroups.com, GayBombay Blogger gaybombay.sasha1...@blogger.com, GayBombayGroup gaybombaygr...@yahoogroups.com, Gaycalcutta gaycalcu...@googlegroups.com, gaycalcuttagr...@yahoogroups.com, GayChennai gaychen...@googlegroups.com, GayDelhi gayde...@googlegroups.com, GayIndia gayin...@googlegroups.com, time84x...@post. wordpress. com time84x...@post.wordpress.com Date: Thursday, 18 June, 2009, 5:57 PM I think 377 may be removed any time now, may be next month when the courts open after summer vacations or a little later. The hearing in the Delhi High Court was over in October, 2008 and only verdict has to come. The proceedings and the attitude of the judges during the last 4-5 days of hearing made it clear that 377 will be removed. They only have to see that there is no law and order problem the day verdict comes. They will have to make some police arrangement before verdict is announced. The court might inform the government in advance to make suitable arrangements. However, I do not think that removal of 377 is going to help Indian gay community in any way. Indian homosexuals will not be able to surface out and start living with their partners openly after 377 is removed. Homosexuality will keep operating as a hidden and underground sub-culture in India as usual. In fact, 377 has already been removed in practice. The government of India is not enforcing it now. They allow flavoured condoms meant for oral sex to be manufactured and marketed openly, they install condom vending machines in military barracks for soldiers who have anal sex with each other since they remain away from their wives for prolonged periods, all gay sites remain openly accessible in India, gay parties openly allowed in metros, gay men remaining openly involved in sexual activities in city parks in Mumbai when cops turning a blind eye to them and so on. IPC 377 now exists on paper only. Whether we remove it from paper or not is immaterial. The Sri Lankan Government has even said to its gay community that we are not enforcing law banning anal sex, so they can have anal sex if they want. What we want is the acceptability of homosexuality in India which will come through education. The government must publicize the findings of medical science about homosexuality in India through newspapers, radio, TV etc. and other means of mass communication. The government must heavily advertise that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and it is a normal human behaviour. The Government should also launch special drives so that married gay men come out in the open and take divorce from their wives. Making same-sex Marriage Law is the first step in creating the acceptability of homosexuals in the society. Nothing less than this will work. Nepal's Supreme Court has already ordered Nepal Government to make Same-sex Marriage Law within 6 months. Since 6 months are already over, somebody might now file a contempt petition in the court to remind the Government to make the law. Nepal is presently going on under political turmoil; otherwise the law might already have been made by now. Removal of 377 only helps in establishing the existence of male homosexuals in the society. The Government of India has already accepted our existence but a common man has yet to do so. Previously, the Government of India was also not recognising the existence of homosexuality in the society. However, after AIDS came into picture, the government had to do it. Now, if not all then at least those government documents and reports which are prepared in connection of HIV and AIDS
g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT
I think 377 may be removed any time now, may be next month when the courts open after summer vacations or a little later. The hearing in the Delhi High Court was over in October, 2008 and only verdict has to come. The proceedings and the attitude of the judges during the last 4-5 days of hearing made it clear that 377 will be removed. They only have to see that there is no law and order problem the day verdict comes. They will have to make some police arrangement before verdict is announced. The court might inform the government in advance to make suitable arrangements. However, I do not think that removal of 377 is going to help Indian gay community in any way. Indian homosexuals will not be able to surface out and start living with their partners openly after 377 is removed. Homosexuality will keep operating as a hidden and underground sub-culture in India as usual. In fact, 377 has already been removed in practice. The government of India is not enforcing it now. They allow flavoured condoms meant for oral sex to be manufactured and marketed openly, they install condom vending machines in military barracks for soldiers who have anal sex with each other since they remain away from their wives for prolonged periods, all gay sites remain openly accessible in India, gay parties openly allowed in metros, gay men remaining openly involved in sexual activities in city parks in Mumbai when cops turning a blind eye to them and so on. IPC 377 now exists on paper only. Whether we remove it from paper or not is immaterial. The Sri Lankan Government has even said to its gay community that we are not enforcing law banning anal sex, so they can have anal sex if they want. What we want is the acceptability of homosexuality in India which will come through education. The government must publicize the findings of medical science about homosexuality in India through newspapers, radio, TV etc. and other means of mass communication. The government must heavily advertise that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and it is a normal human behaviour. The Government should also launch special drives so that married gay men come out in the open and take divorce from their wives. Making same-sex Marriage Law is the first step in creating the acceptability of homosexuals in the society. Nothing less than this will work. Nepal's Supreme Court has already ordered Nepal Government to make Same-sex Marriage Law within 6 months. Since 6 months are already over, somebody might now file a contempt petition in the court to remind the Government to make the law. Nepal is presently going on under political turmoil; otherwise the law might already have been made by now. Removal of 377 only helps in establishing the existence of male homosexuals in the society. The Government of India has already accepted our existence but a common man has yet to do so. Previously, the Government of India was also not recognising the existence of homosexuality in the society. However, after AIDS came into picture, the government had to do it. Now, if not all then at least those government documents and reports which are prepared in connection of HIV and AIDS prevention work always use two words together - prostitutes and homosexuals (they have coined the word 'MSM' for homosexuals but they never use the words ‘MSW’ or ‘WSM’ for themselves). It shows that the government of India has accepted the existence of homosexuals on earth. However, a common man is yet to do so categorically. So far a common man on the street thinks that there are some men who take young boys to deserted spots and they rape them. A common man also knows that there are some men in the society who want that another man performs anal sex on them. A common man thinks that these two types of men are known as homosexuals and they suffer from a mental disease. A common man also thinks that the number of such homosexuals is very small in the society, just one in lakhs. However, all this information in informally available to a common man. He has picked it up from no formal source. When we remove 377, a common man will come to know in a formal way about the existence of a class named 'MSM' in the society, just like the government has accepted it now. However, besides establishing the existence of MSM's, nothing more will be accomplished by removal of 377. A common man will continue hating homosexuals, as he does now. When we remove 377 as a measure to prevent AIDS, the common man on the street will think that the govt. had to do this since homosexuals are an unavoidable evil and we shall have to tolerate them since we cannot eliminate them. Homosexuality will be thought like prostitution. We are also on our path to legalise prostitution since it has been found that prostitution cannot be stopped by any means so it is better to legalise it. Prostitution has been accepted by the society as an unavoidable evil. By
Re: g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT
The govt should this The courts should do that ppl shud not wear masks what is there today is wrong what is going to happen is as bad if not more. rt? but then as an individual how are you carrying the stone on which the foundation is sought to be built? Wanna have a secure house.? lift the stone to build it n not cast on others. Manoj --- On Thu, 18/6/09, Prashant p...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Prashant p...@yahoo.com Subject: g_b Re: NEVER READY FOR IT To: gayde...@googlegroups.com Cc: gay_bombay@yahoogroups.com, GayAhmedabad gayahmeda...@googlegroups.com, GayBangalore gaybangal...@googlegroups.com, GayBombay gaybom...@googlrgroups.com, GayBombay Blogger gaybombay.sasha1...@blogger.com, GayBombayGroup gaybombaygr...@yahoogroups.com, Gaycalcutta gaycalcu...@googlegroups.com, gaycalcuttagr...@yahoogroups.com, GayChennai gaychen...@googlegroups.com, GayDelhi gayde...@googlegroups.com, GayIndia gayin...@googlegroups.com, time84x...@post. wordpress. com time84x...@post.wordpress.com Date: Thursday, 18 June, 2009, 5:57 PM I think 377 may be removed any time now, may be next month when the courts open after summer vacations or a little later. The hearing in the Delhi High Court was over in October, 2008 and only verdict has to come. The proceedings and the attitude of the judges during the last 4-5 days of hearing made it clear that 377 will be removed. They only have to see that there is no law and order problem the day verdict comes. They will have to make some police arrangement before verdict is announced. The court might inform the government in advance to make suitable arrangements. However, I do not think that removal of 377 is going to help Indian gay community in any way. Indian homosexuals will not be able to surface out and start living with their partners openly after 377 is removed. Homosexuality will keep operating as a hidden and underground sub-culture in India as usual. In fact, 377 has already been removed in practice. The government of India is not enforcing it now. They allow flavoured condoms meant for oral sex to be manufactured and marketed openly, they install condom vending machines in military barracks for soldiers who have anal sex with each other since they remain away from their wives for prolonged periods, all gay sites remain openly accessible in India, gay parties openly allowed in metros, gay men remaining openly involved in sexual activities in city parks in Mumbai when cops turning a blind eye to them and so on. IPC 377 now exists on paper only. Whether we remove it from paper or not is immaterial. The Sri Lankan Government has even said to its gay community that we are not enforcing law banning anal sex, so they can have anal sex if they want. What we want is the acceptability of homosexuality in India which will come through education. The government must publicize the findings of medical science about homosexuality in India through newspapers, radio, TV etc. and other means of mass communication. The government must heavily advertise that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and it is a normal human behaviour. The Government should also launch special drives so that married gay men come out in the open and take divorce from their wives. Making same-sex Marriage Law is the first step in creating the acceptability of homosexuals in the society. Nothing less than this will work. Nepal's Supreme Court has already ordered Nepal Government to make Same-sex Marriage Law within 6 months. Since 6 months are already over, somebody might now file a contempt petition in the court to remind the Government to make the law. Nepal is presently going on under political turmoil; otherwise the law might already have been made by now. Removal of 377 only helps in establishing the existence of male homosexuals in the society. The Government of India has already accepted our existence but a common man has yet to do so. Previously, the Government of India was also not recognising the existence of homosexuality in the society. However, after AIDS came into picture, the government had to do it. Now, if not all then at least those government documents and reports which are prepared in connection of HIV and AIDS prevention work always use two words together - prostitutes and homosexuals (they have coined the word 'MSM' for homosexuals but they never use the words ‘MSW’ or ‘WSM’ for themselves). It shows that the government of India has accepted the existence of homosexuals on earth. However, a common man is yet to do so categorically. So far a common man on the street thinks that there are some men who take young boys to deserted spots and they rape them. A common man also knows that there are some men in the society who want that another man performs anal sex on them. A common man thinks that these two types of men are known as homosexuals and they suffer from a mental disease. A common man also
