Re: [Gendergap] Topless image retention -don't give up
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote: It's a good question. Why is it humoured? It doesn't look like you're going to get an answer. So, in the absence of an answer, why do other contributors here think the sort of nonsense Sarah has had to deal with a [[Talk:List of vegetarians]] is humoured? What could the WMF do to address it that it isn't doing right now? ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Topless image retention -don't give up
Frankly, I don't know why this is a feminist issue; rather than an issue of common sense. It is not a finite list, and for the vast majority of people on the list, being a vegetarian is hardly responsible for even the smallest piece of their notability; it is an arbitrary piece of trivia for most of them. Take http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Lagarde for example, her vegetarianism is but an afterthought in her biography, yet she is being placed as the most prominent vegetarian in that article. I would argue that this is taking the whole feminist issue to its most illogical and extreme. And it is open to western bias. Take the number of Indians on the list, for example. There are only TWENTY Indians on the list. If we transplant the 31% of Indians who are vegetarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#India) to this list, 31% of subjects of Indian biographical articles should be placed in this article (all things considered same-same). And if we did want to use the lead photo to depict a truly known vegetarian, one could ask why Gandhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi#Vegetarianism_and_food) has been relegated to below several people whom the average person has never heard of (with the likely exception of Natalie Portman and Martina Navratilova). This is a precise example of said western bias in action. The common sense approach would ask, why do we need a [[List of vegetarians]] in the first place, when [[:Category:Vegetarians]] would be a much better way to handle such infinite lists. I appreciate that people want to remove an over-the-top amount of adult entertainers from the list, and rightly so, but again I fear that the bigger picture has yet again been missed, and people are looking at things from the wrong perspective. Cheers, Russavia On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Andreas Kolbe jayen...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote: It's a good question. Why is it humoured? It doesn't look like you're going to get an answer. So, in the absence of an answer, why do other contributors here think the sort of nonsense Sarah has had to deal with a [[Talk:List of vegetarians]] is humoured? What could the WMF do to address it that it isn't doing right now? ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Topless image retention -don't give up
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.comwrote: Frankly, I don't know why this is a feminist issue; rather than an issue of common sense. It is not a finite list, and for the vast majority of people on the list, being a vegetarian is hardly responsible for even the smallest piece of their notability; it is an arbitrary piece of trivia for most of them. Take http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Lagarde for example, her vegetarianism is but an afterthought in her biography, yet she is being placed as the most prominent vegetarian in that article. I would argue that this is taking the whole feminist issue to its most illogical and extreme. ... Cheers, Russavia Hi Russavia, the question is why Wikipedia represented 13 women vegetarians visually by including six porn stars. They were there from at least June 2010 until recently, and even now there are still three. If a similarly racist situation existed, I think it would have been spotted and dealt with faster. As of August 2012, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_vegetariansoldid=505392733the list of women consisted of: Former porn star in a bikini; Playboy Playmate with breasts half exposed; tennis player; figure skater; actress; singer; presenter and model; actress; politician; singer; actress; primatologist; singer; model in a bikini; Playboy Playmate; dancer; Playboy Playmate; actress; porn actress. But the list of men was very different: Doctor and politician; scientist; revolutionary; philosopher; politician; playwright; chief rabbi; artist; chief rabbi; psychiatrist; journalist; writer; doctor; novelist; architect; Archbishop of Constantinople; poet; singer-songwriter; comedian; doctor; football player; actor; musician; fictional character. That we allow women and men to be represented so differently suggests that Wikipedia has a problem recognizing and dealing with sexism. So the question is why, and how can we change it? Sarah ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Topless image retention -don't give up
On 5/7/13 9:57 AM, Russavia wrote: Frankly, I don't know why this is a feminist issue; rather than an issue of common sense. Agreed. I often find it is counter-productive to frame these sort of debates in terms of feminism/sexism/etc. This immediately triggers the censorship-defense mechanism in those who believe that feminists want to ban nudity from the internet (or something like that). You're not going to convince these editors that it is important to examine the biased representation of women on Wikipedia. What you might convince them of is that Gandhi is a more notable vegetarian than Serenity, the exotic dancer. Or that a photograph of a 3rd trimester pregnancy is a better illustration of 'pregnancy' than a photograph of a 1st trimester pregnancy. In other words, if you don't have to debate the nudity, don't. It will only steer the discussion into a culture war in which you will be hopelessly outnumbered. Ryan 'Mansplainer' Kaldari ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
