Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and the war on women’s dignity

[Carol Moore dc]

Good point. Actually I first heard about it on ANI where they didn't 
link to the page, but I didn't put two and two together of WHY they 
didn't link.


On 9/9/2014 7:22 PM, Katherine Casey wrote:
I don't think it's appropriate to use this list to link to pages that 
out other users. I understand your frustration with nothing onwiki 
getting done, Carol, I truly do, but part of the social contract of 
being a Wikipedian is that we're expected to not attack the "real 
lives" of other Wikipedians - even when we think they're terrible or 
totally wrong.


On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Carol Moore dc 
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:


Wikipedia and the war on women’s dignity

http://wikipediocracy.com/2014/09/07/wikipedia-and-the-war-on-womens-dignity/

This article mentions an individual who's caused problems at the
Gender Gap task force.

Off wiki sites engaging in outing is, like hashtags, a two edged
sword.  It can be used against truly problematic individuals who
troll behind anonymity.  But it also can be used against solid
editors whose job or other situation necessitates anonymity but
who have angered the wrong troll by trying to comply with policy.

And the absurdities continue

CM



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Re: [Gendergap] Use of hashtag... Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Carol Moore dc]

On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, "Nathan" > wrote



Hi Sarah, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was understanding Carol as 
saying that there were sexist comments in the ANI she linked (where 
Andreas' quoted comment was found). I read the entire AN/I thread and 
the editor review and found none.



I did not know that the harassing individual was a woman until now. If 
it was mentioned in passing in the ANI, I missed it.


Frankly, unless a woman through her user name makes it clear she is a 
woman, given the predominance of males, I've come to the point where I 
do not even bother to try to figure it out.  Even with women joining the 
Gender gap task force, I don't always check it out and sometimes when I 
have there also was no indication on their user page. One such woman 
went around complaining I didn't know she was a woman, when there had 
been no indication. We are not mind readers. I have often regretted 
using my real name and an obviously female name. However the last week 
or so I have see the fact that so many women feel forced to hide their 
sex to prevent their being ignored, reverted, harassed, etc. as a kind 
of burqa we are forced to wear to protect ourselves. It's pretty sad.


In any case, the ANI itself is still primarily relevant to off-wiki 
criticism and whether women can use a *twitter hashtag* to identify 
criticism and whether we should... Thus I've added that to the subject 
line to stay on topic.


While I'm not going to promote the idea, I think anyone is serious about 
it they might take it to Village Pump - or the WP:Canvas or 
WP:Forumshopping pages.


CM
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Sarah Stierch]

I agree. But, it hasn't been serving those women who don't very well. The
NFL is appearing to have a better track record right now than the Wikimedia
community... in handling harassers and that's not saying much at all :)

Sarah

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:36 AM, LB  wrote:

> And of course, that is the nub of the problem. Women shouldn't have to
> keep their heads down and write about acceptable and uncontroversial things
> to avoid getting harassed. (Also, I'm not sure even editing women
> scientists would be safe.)
>
> Lightbreather
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Sarah Stierch 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Nathan. I do concur that harassment to the level myself, Carol and
>> other very active outspoken women have experienced on/off wiki is not the
>> standard experience for every woman who lines up to click edit.
>>
>> It sucks that it happens. But I also always remind people - unless you
>> are editing controversial subjects or pose a direct threat to the
>> patriarchy you won't get messed with. Or at least not much.
>>
>> Just keep your head down and write about knitting and women scientists.
>> You will be "just fine..."
>>
>> (With slight sarcasm :)
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>
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-- 

Sarah Stierch

-

Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

www.sarahstierch.com
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[LB]

And of course, that is the nub of the problem. Women shouldn't have to keep
their heads down and write about acceptable and uncontroversial things to
avoid getting harassed. (Also, I'm not sure even editing women scientists
would be safe.)

Lightbreather

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Sarah Stierch 
wrote:

> Thanks Nathan. I do concur that harassment to the level myself, Carol and
> other very active outspoken women have experienced on/off wiki is not the
> standard experience for every woman who lines up to click edit.
>
> It sucks that it happens. But I also always remind people - unless you are
> editing controversial subjects or pose a direct threat to the patriarchy
> you won't get messed with. Or at least not much.
>
> Just keep your head down and write about knitting and women scientists.
> You will be "just fine..."
>
> (With slight sarcasm :)
>
> Sarah
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Sarah Stierch]

Thanks Nathan. I do concur that harassment to the level myself, Carol and
other very active outspoken women have experienced on/off wiki is not the
standard experience for every woman who lines up to click edit.

It sucks that it happens. But I also always remind people - unless you are
editing controversial subjects or pose a direct threat to the patriarchy
you won't get messed with. Or at least not much.

Just keep your head down and write about knitting and women scientists. You
will be "just fine..."

(With slight sarcasm :)

Sarah
On Sep 10, 2014 9:09 AM, "Nathan"  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Sarah Stierch 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi. Some people can't speak up about what happened for legal reasons.
>>
>> I do think there is a double standard. But I have before my involvement
>> in wiki. Living in the US it's a way of life.
>>
>> Some women who were impacted by those posts were harassed by people
>> involved way prior to making their own minor and harmless in the end game
>> errors which got them "in trouble." Women just did not take action or make
>> it public. No one should have to post on a public website that they have
>> been sexually harassed to get help. And "bad people on the internet are
>> common" is the general response.
>>
>> There are also male staff members who did things considered illegal in
>> the US courts who still have their jobs (some don't work there anymore but
>> it shocked many of us women they were allowed to stay so long given their
>> behaviors). Amazing how that works.
>>
>> But, some of us can't and are afraid to talk about it. Some of us just
>> want closure but the trolls and internet won't give it to us. (And it's not
>> just me...)
>>
>> And no I am not elaborating on or offlist. So don't ask. I gave up
>> fighting after I lost my job. So I commend those who still care.
>>
>> I love the Twitter feed, by the way.
>>
>> Sarah
>> On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, "Nathan"  wrote
>>
>
>
> Hi Sarah, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was understanding Carol as saying
> that there were sexist comments in the ANI she linked (where Andreas'
> quoted comment was found). I read the entire AN/I thread and the editor
> review and found none.
>
> Of course I realize that there are many, many instances of terrible sexual
> harassment on the Internet and throughout the history of Wikipedia. My
> point about muddying the waters is that these examples are enough to
> convince anyone open to being convinced that there is a problem. It is
> unnecessary to attach these real issues to examples that don't reflect
> sexism or gender-related harassment.
>
> That said, even though I don't see sexism or gender in the example, it is
> a good example of the spiteful, bitter, battlefield atmosphere that
> characterizes disputes on Wikipedia.
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Nathan]

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Sarah Stierch 
wrote:

> Hi. Some people can't speak up about what happened for legal reasons.
>
> I do think there is a double standard. But I have before my involvement in
> wiki. Living in the US it's a way of life.
>
> Some women who were impacted by those posts were harassed by people
> involved way prior to making their own minor and harmless in the end game
> errors which got them "in trouble." Women just did not take action or make
> it public. No one should have to post on a public website that they have
> been sexually harassed to get help. And "bad people on the internet are
> common" is the general response.
>
> There are also male staff members who did things considered illegal in the
> US courts who still have their jobs (some don't work there anymore but it
> shocked many of us women they were allowed to stay so long given their
> behaviors). Amazing how that works.
>
> But, some of us can't and are afraid to talk about it. Some of us just
> want closure but the trolls and internet won't give it to us. (And it's not
> just me...)
>
> And no I am not elaborating on or offlist. So don't ask. I gave up
> fighting after I lost my job. So I commend those who still care.
>
> I love the Twitter feed, by the way.
>
> Sarah
> On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, "Nathan"  wrote
>


Hi Sarah, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was understanding Carol as saying
that there were sexist comments in the ANI she linked (where Andreas'
quoted comment was found). I read the entire AN/I thread and the editor
review and found none.

Of course I realize that there are many, many instances of terrible sexual
harassment on the Internet and throughout the history of Wikipedia. My
point about muddying the waters is that these examples are enough to
convince anyone open to being convinced that there is a problem. It is
unnecessary to attach these real issues to examples that don't reflect
sexism or gender-related harassment.

That said, even though I don't see sexism or gender in the example, it is a
good example of the spiteful, bitter, battlefield atmosphere that
characterizes disputes on Wikipedia.
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Sarah Stierch]

Hi. Some people can't speak up about what happened for legal reasons.

I do think there is a double standard. But I have before my involvement in
wiki. Living in the US it's a way of life.

Some women who were impacted by those posts were harassed by people
involved way prior to making their own minor and harmless in the end game
errors which got them "in trouble." Women just did not take action or make
it public. No one should have to post on a public website that they have
been sexually harassed to get help. And "bad people on the internet are
common" is the general response.

There are also male staff members who did things considered illegal in the
US courts who still have their jobs (some don't work there anymore but it
shocked many of us women they were allowed to stay so long given their
behaviors). Amazing how that works.

But, some of us can't and are afraid to talk about it. Some of us just want
closure but the trolls and internet won't give it to us. (And it's not just
me...)

And no I am not elaborating on or offlist. So don't ask. I gave up fighting
after I lost my job. So I commend those who still care.

I love the Twitter feed, by the way.

Sarah
On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, "Nathan"  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Carol Moore dc 
> wrote:
>
>>  On 9/9/2014 7:51 PM, LB wrote:
>>
>> I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a
>> mostly internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some
>> point, but that's my thinking on it at this time.
>>
>>  Lightbreather
>>
>> You are braver than I!  On the other hand this is what
>> [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]]  wrote when I complained the woman editor was
>> being harassed off line:
>>
>>
>>
>> *Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or
>> elsewhere, is not harassment. This is not a private project, but a public
>> one, with a significant impact on public life. Any such public project
>> should be prepared to be criticised. If someone writes nonsense in a
>> science article read and relied on by a million people a year, that is a
>> matter of public interest, just like stories like
>> [http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/
>>  this],
>> [http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/
>> 
>> this],
>> [http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/
>> 
>> this],
>> [http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wikipedia
>> 
>> this] or
>> [http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controversy-right-wing/
>> 
>> this]. If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about
>> Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and
>> rightly so. Such ideas belong to places like Azerbaijan and North Korea. 
>> *Thus
>> one would think quoting nasty sexist things, especially when an editor's
>> name not mentioned should be ok. This really was a test case, wasn't it?
>> (Or not in a community that still applies double standards to male vs.
>> female actions.)
>>
>> Here's the link to the ANI in question:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#Harassment
>>
>>
>>
> Where were the sexist comments? The user complaining of harassment and the
> user accused of harassment were both women, and I see no comments about
> gender in either the AN/I or the extensive editor review. The harassment
> complained of was the persistence of an editor in following another editor
> around and pointing out errors in many of her articles, and the
> argumentative and derisive attitude of the first towards the latter.
> Andreas' point is that criticism, by itself, is not harassment. Many agreed
> with the criticism but advised the critic that she needed an attitude
> adjustment. At that point she disengaged.
>
> So it's a problem when we conflate circumstances which do not implicate
> gender or sexism with those that do. Calling this an example of sexism
> muddies the waters, particularly when there are many examples that are
> perfectly clear cut.  It *is* an example of the hassle and angry debate
> involved in contributing to Wikipedia, though, and I can certainly see how
> that would drive all sorts of people away from the project.
>
>
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ht

[Gendergap] Charting Diversity: New blog post is up!

[Christopher Schwarzkopf]

Hello everybody,

as some of you might already know, Wikimedia Deutschland recently published
the study "Charting Diversity" that summarizes the key conclusions of our
research and development project "Diversity for Wikipedia".

Today we officially announced the study to the international movement with
a new blog post on the Wikimedia blog:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/09/09/working-together-towards-diversity-in-wikipedia/


We are happy if you share the blogpost in your networks in order to make
more people aware of the study!

Best,
Chris
-- 
Christopher Schwarzkopf
Bereichsassistent Bildung und Wissen
Assistant Education and Knowledge

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de

Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen
Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei!
http://spenden.wikimedia.de/

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Nathan]

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Carol Moore dc 
wrote:

>  On 9/9/2014 7:51 PM, LB wrote:
>
> I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a mostly
> internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point,
> but that's my thinking on it at this time.
>
>  Lightbreather
>
> You are braver than I!  On the other hand this is what
> [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]]  wrote when I complained the woman editor was
> being harassed off line:
>
>
>
> *Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or
> elsewhere, is not harassment. This is not a private project, but a public
> one, with a significant impact on public life. Any such public project
> should be prepared to be criticised. If someone writes nonsense in a
> science article read and relied on by a million people a year, that is a
> matter of public interest, just like stories like
> [http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/
>  this],
> [http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/
> 
> this],
> [http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/
> 
> this],
> [http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wikipedia
> 
> this] or
> [http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controversy-right-wing/
> 
> this]. If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about
> Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and
> rightly so. Such ideas belong to places like Azerbaijan and North Korea. *Thus
> one would think quoting nasty sexist things, especially when an editor's
> name not mentioned should be ok. This really was a test case, wasn't it?
> (Or not in a community that still applies double standards to male vs.
> female actions.)
>
> Here's the link to the ANI in question:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#Harassment
>
>
>
Where were the sexist comments? The user complaining of harassment and the
user accused of harassment were both women, and I see no comments about
gender in either the AN/I or the extensive editor review. The harassment
complained of was the persistence of an editor in following another editor
around and pointing out errors in many of her articles, and the
argumentative and derisive attitude of the first towards the latter.
Andreas' point is that criticism, by itself, is not harassment. Many agreed
with the criticism but advised the critic that she needed an attitude
adjustment. At that point she disengaged.

So it's a problem when we conflate circumstances which do not implicate
gender or sexism with those that do. Calling this an example of sexism
muddies the waters, particularly when there are many examples that are
perfectly clear cut.  It *is* an example of the hassle and angry debate
involved in contributing to Wikipedia, though, and I can certainly see how
that would drive all sorts of people away from the project.
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Carol Moore dc]

On 9/9/2014 7:51 PM, LB wrote:
I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a 
mostly internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at 
some point, but that's my thinking on it at this time.


Lightbreather
You are braver than I!  On the other hand this is what 
[[User:Jayen466|Andreas]]  wrote when I complained the woman editor was 
being harassed off line:


/Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or 
elsewhere, is not harassment. This is not a private project, but a 
public one, with a significant impact on public life. Any such public 
project should be prepared to be criticised. If someone writes nonsense 
in a science article read and relied on by a million people a year, that 
is a matter of public interest, just like stories like 
[http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/ this], 
[http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/ 
this], 
[http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/ 
this], 
[http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wikipedia 
this] or 
[http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controversy-right-wing/ 
this]. If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about 
Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, 
and rightly so. Such ideas belong to places like Azerbaijan and North Korea.


/Thus one would think quoting nasty sexist things, especially when an 
editor's name not mentioned should be ok. This really was a test case, 
wasn't it? (Or not in a community that still applies double standards to 
male vs. female actions.)

/
/Here's the link to the ANI in question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#Harassment


On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Carol Moore dc 
mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net>> wrote:


Frankly, given the hostility to the Gender Gap project, I have to
wonder about this Hashtag effort.

Lightbreather quoted some obnoxious guy statements a month  ago
out of her own account and was roundly criticized. Forum shopping
and canvassing issues were raised while others applauded it. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_170#Fed_up_with_the_status_quo...

I personally wouldn't do it because the wrong Admin who was
friends with people you quoted (or people who don't like you)
probably would get you blocked for weeks or months at a time. So
it could be a way to trap editors whose twitter accounts are
somehow linked to their user names.

I know at least one guy at an ANI got away with criticizing a
woman editor on her editing at a number of off wiki-sites.  But
that doesn't mean any of us would get away with it.

 And this also can be turned about the Gender Gap Project
"#GenderGapStupidity" or whatever.

So unless there was some community consensus on an appropriate way
to do this, I would tread carefully...

CM



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