Re: [Gendergap] article differentials/unnecessary drama

[Kevin Gorman]

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 1:25 AM, Béria Lima  wrote:

> Hi Erin.
>
> First we are - and we never - discussed "*Content that deals primarily
> with women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects*"
> what we did discussed here was 3 or 4 articles *from en.wiki* that Sarah
> thinks need to be remade. As far as I know, we have more than 700
> projects... en.wiki can be the biggest, but is not the only one. And even
> if we changed all the articles in this language, would not do much for the
> other several million woman around the world. And we are trying to solve
> the gender gap in all the projects here, not only in en.wiki and not only
> in USA.
>
> So forgive me if I do believe that discuss 3 en.wiki articles will do
> nothing as far as gender gap solve is concerned. Might be good examples to
> someone when they are doing a presentation, but that is as far as this can
> go.
>

If you don't think that directly addressing three small problems caused by
the gender gap is a worthwhile endeavor I'm confused.  Not everything can
or should be a herculean effort aimed at making everything better at once.
 I think that addressing three or four individual problems is quite
worthwhile, and it does solve a very small part of the problem.

If you have a problem with this list being dominated by English language
stuff, the appropriate thing to do is to start discussions on problems in
other languages.  I'm sure that Sarah would love to see discussions about
how the gender gap effects other language projects, and I know I would.  We
just don't speak any other language well enough to start such a discussion.

Additionally, as I said, the specific examples Sarah has brought up on this
list have been of great use to me in doing physical outreach.  One of her
previous examples emailed to this list piqued a faculty member at UC
Berkeley's interest when they heard about it secondhand - and as a result,
her class will be participating in the education program next semester.
 They'll be shooting to bring thirty articles up to FA or near-FA quality,
and will be focusing on areas where our existing coverage is weak because
of our gender and other demographic gaps, using high quality academic
sources to support their work. This has only happened (and I am being
completely literal) because of one of Sarah's previous emails.

That seems to me to represent a pretty solid reason for Sarah to keep on
posting in the way that she has been. If you disagree or are simply
uninterested in her posts about en.wiki, it would take but a moment for you
to simply delete them.   (And I'm not saying that snarkily.  I delete
probably 75% of foundation-l without reading it most of the time.)


Kevin Gorman
User:Kgorman-ucb
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Re: [Gendergap] article differentials/unnecessary drama

[Caroline Becker]

This is exactly where my problem comes from : en-wiki is not "wikipedia"
but one of many wikipedias, and wikipedias is not "Wikimedia project". Just
to illustrate how the discussion pimp vs madam is cultural-biased, in
French wikipedia, the inter-wiki for pimp is "proxénétisme" ("hustling")
and the article is gender-neutral.

It would be interesting to have stats of all wikipedias comparing, for
instance, the number of article about women scientists compared to article
about men scientists (and the same for actor/actresses,
sportmen/sportwomen).

Caroline


2011/12/26 Béria Lima 

> As far as I know, we have more than 700 projects... en.wiki can be the
> biggest, but is not the only one. And even if we changed all the articles
> in this language, would not do much for the other several million woman
> around the world. And we are trying to solve the gender gap in all the
> projects here, not only in en.wiki and not only in USA.
>
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Re: [Gendergap] article differentials/unnecessary drama

[Béria Lima]

Hi Erin.

First we are - and we never - discussed "*Content that deals primarily with
women is systematically underdeveloped throughout the projects*" what we
did discussed here was 3 or 4 articles *from en.wiki* that Sarah thinks
need to be remade. As far as I know, we have more than 700 projects...
en.wiki can be the biggest, but is not the only one. And even if we changed
all the articles in this language, would not do much for the other several
million woman around the world. And we are trying to solve the gender gap
in all the projects here, not only in en.wiki and not only in USA.

So forgive me if I do believe that discuss 3 en.wiki articles will do
nothing as far as gender gap solve is concerned. Might be good examples to
someone when they are doing a presentation, but that is as far as this can
go.

And one think is discuss something - even when people have different
opinion than yours, another completely different is play the "*poor me,
nothing I do is good*" every time someone has a criticism against your work.
_
*Béria Lima*
Wikimedia Portugal 
(351) 963 953 042

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 26 December 2011 02:34, Erin O'Rourke  wrote:

> I'll echo Kevin's words, as I couldn't have said it better myself:
>
> "To me, article differentials like this are one of the most interesting
> manifestations of the gender gap, and are worth talking about on this
> list.
> Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped
> throughout the projects, and that is a big deal.  The gendergap would
> still
> be disturbing even if this weren't the case - but to me at least, the
> systemic underdevelopment of content is probably the single most worrisome
> issue involved."
>
> And while I may not jumping to join in on conversations regarding photos
> of questionable value to Wikipedia I think it prompts important discussions
> about how to shape the policy and culture of Wikipedia while preserving the
> intention of the site.
>
> In addition, if you're calling for less drama I'd suggest you heed your
> own words, Beria. Pete's response did not imply you're not qualified to
> talk but rather called for some more constructive feedback and ideas.
> Obviously you're doing a lot for the gender gap and that's great. On the
> other hand, the attitude is completely uncalled for.
> --
> Erin O'Rourke
> http://erin-orourke.com
>
>
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[Gendergap] article differentials/unnecessary drama

[Erin O'Rourke]

I'll echo Kevin's words, as I couldn't have said it better myself:

"To me, article differentials like this are one of the most interesting
manifestations of the gender gap, and are worth talking about on this list.
Content that deals primarily with women is systematically underdeveloped
throughout the projects, and that is a big deal.  The gendergap would still
be disturbing even if this weren't the case - but to me at least, the
systemic underdevelopment of content is probably the single most worrisome
issue involved."

And while I may not jumping to join in on conversations regarding photos of
questionable value to Wikipedia I think it prompts important discussions
about how to shape the policy and culture of Wikipedia while preserving the
intention of the site.

In addition, if you're calling for less drama I'd suggest you heed your own
words, Beria. Pete's response did not imply you're not qualified to talk
but rather called for some more constructive feedback and ideas. Obviously
you're doing a lot for the gender gap and that's great. On the other hand,
the attitude is completely uncalled for.
-- 
Erin O'Rourke
http://erin-orourke.com
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