Re: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wiki

[marinka marinkavandam.com]

 
  I meant simply to observe that there was never any real anonymity issue with Corbett since he never made any real effort to hide his identity. To suggest as some have, but not Carol at any rate in the post I was responding to, that he was taking advantage of a cloak of anonymity to make uncivil attacks thus seems to me quite far off the mark. If I had been making a more considered response, I might also have noted that editors, even when they take great care to protect their anonymity, may very well not really be genuinely anonymous in the sense that their editing is known to their immediate circle, if only the missus and the cat (and of course meet-up acquaintances ...). It's quite something, don't you think, that an editor who finds himself controversially involved in a debate about his civility in relation to the Wikipedia's Gender Gap Task Force, should have begun his editing career with  a monniker Malleus Fatuarum which means "hammer of stupid women". I dare say this has been the subject of some commentary and I'm happy, for one, to accept Corbett at his word that he knows sweet fuckorum about Latin grammar (the stupid cuntum ...): nevertheless the suspicion surely must arise that perhaps he was playing to some unacknowledged and quietly appreciative gallery all that time?
  I'm not unsympathetic to Corbett. I think he's rather fine to tell the truth in an awful sort of way as they say, but quaintly flawed I would nicely add.
  
  
   On December 1, 2014 at 1:46 PM Katherine Casey  wrote:
   
   
   

 I am really not comfortable with this list being used to host or organize opposition research or commentary against individual editors. I understand that people are angry about the disposition of this case (and I agree that it was pretty craptastic), but taking it as an opportunity to delve into and opine on the real lives of those on the "other side" is as much personalizing the dispute as anything else that happened in this case (and is unattractively similar to doxxing-style intimidation in my mind, even if you don't propose to explicitly list addresses or phone numbers). Speaking as someone who has had similar done to me because in the other person's mind I was wrong, evil, corrupt, etc: it's not any righter when we do it because we think "I'm good and they're bad" than when someone else does it to us because they think they're "good" and we're "bad".
 
 


 -Fluffernutter
 


 
  
  
   On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:51 PM, marinka 
   marinkavandam.com 
    wrote:
   
   


 I'm new to this mailing list, so I may not be doing this right. Please let me know if I'm not. I wish to make a response to Carol's remarks on anonymity.
 I don't propose to doxx Corbett here, but I don't think there was ever any problem about his identity even when he was editing under the monniker Malleus Fatuorum ("hammer of men" - but originally it it was Malleus Fatuarum, "hammer of women"). His first few edits are classical in nature and then there is a hiatus of several months after which he resumes again and commences his familiar program of edits centered around his local history and things Northern in the UK. Should one have wished to identify him then, it really shouldn't have been difficult even in those early days. And of course he subsequently made, earlier this year, a remark about a dreadful family tragedy which certainly does serve to identify him should anyone wish to research it.
 My experience of life is that sexist men are generally unaware of their trait, would indignantly deny it if put to them, and thus don't necessarily feel the need to remain anonymous.
 What I find interesting about Corbett is his lack of notability when you go searching for him. Other than a couple of Amazon reviews (which appear to be his based on the subjects reviewed) I can't find a single blog, article or any other resource authored by him with a single exception pertaining to a charitable fund his family and associates  appear to have set up (for the welfare of ferrets). Otherwise the world outside Wikipedia is silent on him, and he in that wider world. 
 I confess myself quite curious about Corbett and his Manchester circle, and not merely within the context of Wikipedia's gender gap but within the broader context of exercising power, and for that reason I am  making a preliminary study of his editing history with a view to discovering how he came to achieve his position of dominance in Wikipedia. If I have anything significant to say about that, I shall upload it to my website and let the list know. I don't expect that will be before next Spring,
 Marinka van Dam (a pseudonym)

   
  
 

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Re: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wiki

[Katherine Casey]

I am really not comfortable with this list being used to host or organize
opposition research or commentary against individual editors. I understand
that people are angry about the disposition of this case (and I agree that
it was pretty craptastic), but taking it as an opportunity to delve into
and opine on the real lives of those on the "other side" is as much
personalizing the dispute as anything else that happened in this case (and
is unattractively similar to doxxing-style intimidation in my mind, even if
you don't propose to explicitly list addresses or phone numbers). Speaking
as someone who has had similar done to me because in the other person's
mind I was wrong, evil, corrupt, etc: it's not any righter when we do it
because we think "I'm good and they're bad" than when someone else does it
to us because they think they're "good" and we're "bad".

-Fluffernutter

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:51 PM, marinka marinkavandam.com <
mari...@marinkavandam.com> wrote:

>  I'm new to this mailing list, so I may not be doing this right. Please
> let me know if I'm not. I wish to make a response to Carol's remarks on
> anonymity.
>
> I don't propose to doxx Corbett here, but I don't think there was ever any
> problem about his identity even when he was editing under the monniker
> Malleus Fatuorum ("hammer of men" - but originally it it was Malleus
> Fatuarum, "hammer of women"). His first few edits are classical in nature
> and then there is a hiatus of several months after which he resumes again
> and commences his familiar program of edits centered around his local
> history and things Northern in the UK. Should one have wished to identify
> him then, it really shouldn't have been difficult even in those early days.
> And of course he subsequently made, earlier this year, a remark about a
> dreadful family tragedy which certainly does serve to identify him should
> anyone wish to research it.
>
> My experience of life is that sexist men are generally unaware of their
> trait, would indignantly deny it if put to them, and thus don't necessarily
> feel the need to remain anonymous.
>
> What I find interesting about Corbett is his lack of notability when you
> go searching for him. Other than a couple of Amazon reviews (which appear
> to be his based on the subjects reviewed) I can't find a single blog,
> article or any other resource authored by him with a single exception
> pertaining to a charitable fund his family and associates  appear to have
> set up (for the welfare of ferrets). Otherwise the world outside Wikipedia
> is silent on him, and he in that wider world.
>
> I confess myself quite curious about Corbett and his Manchester circle,
> and not merely within the context of Wikipedia's gender gap but within the
> broader context of exercising power, and for that reason I am  making a
> preliminary study of his editing history with a view to discovering how he
> came to achieve his position of dominance in Wikipedia. If I have anything
> significant to say about that, I shall upload it to my website and let the
> list know. I don't expect that will be before next Spring,
>
> Marinka van Dam (a pseudonym)
>
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Re: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wiki

[marinka marinkavandam.com]

 
  I'm new to this mailing list, so I may not be doing this right. Please let me know if I'm not. I wish to make a response to Carol's remarks on anonymity.
  I don't propose to doxx Corbett here, but I don't think there was ever any problem about his identity even when he was editing under the monniker Malleus Fatuorum ("hammer of men" - but originally it it was Malleus Fatuarum, "hammer of women"). His first few edits are classical in nature and then there is a hiatus of several months after which he resumes again and commences his familiar program of edits centered around his local history and things Northern in the UK. Should one have wished to identify him then, it really shouldn't have been difficult even in those early days. And of course he subsequently made, earlier this year, a remark about a dreadful family tragedy which certainly does serve to identify him should anyone wish to research it.
  My experience of life is that sexist men are generally unaware of their trait, would indignantly deny it if put to them, and thus don't necessarily feel the need to remain anonymous.
  What I find interesting about Corbett is his lack of notability when you go searching for him. Other than a couple of Amazon reviews (which appear to be his based on the subjects reviewed) I can't find a single blog, article or any other resource authored by him with a single exception pertaining to a charitable fund his family and associates  appear to have set up (for the welfare of ferrets). Otherwise the world outside Wikipedia is silent on him, and he in that wider world. 
  I confess myself quite curious about Corbett and his Manchester circle, and not merely within the context of Wikipedia's gender gap but within the broader context of exercising power, and for that reason I am  making a preliminary study of his editing history with a view to discovering how he came to achieve his position of dominance in Wikipedia. If I have anything significant to say about that, I shall upload it to my website and let the list know. I don't expect that will be before next Spring,
  Marinka van Dam (a pseudonym)
  
  
   On November 30, 2014 at 2:37 PM Carol Moore dc  wrote:
   
   
   
On 11/30/2014 11:51 AM, Kathleen McCook wrote:

   
   

 
  The only solution would be lack of anonymity. That won't fly, but it would cause the creepiness to go away.
 
 

   I used to think that too.  But some people don't care about people knowing who they are, what they think or who the mess with.  I don't care that much about anonymity and have said a few problematic things (usually under intense harassment). Assuming he really is "Eric Corbett", he's said a lot.  Sitush has outed who he really is at least three times and redacted only one, so that's widely known. Same is true for a lot of individuals, some of whom flame away just within the boundaries of NPA. 

The problem is there are all sorts of harassers out there, some of them paid by govts, who will harass or come after individuals who disagree with them or who criticize their favorite program, politician, party or country.  

Better would be a sliding scale of privileges depending on whether you are an IP or registered and confirmed and whether you are at least willing to admit who you are to the Foundation, including confirming via phone or skype. The latter would be mandatory to become an Admin or an Arbitrator or to retain editing privileges after violating important policies repeatedly. 

This would work REALLY good to stop BLP violations which have been the biggest time sink for me, at least until GGTF.  Once the Foundation knows who you are, it's really easy for pissed off subjects of trashy BLPs to get a subpoena and sue your butt.

I have a list of good ideas in formulation, some drawn from previous discussions, and one of these days soon will post here, at my carolmoore.net/wikipedia, at the new youtube site and who knows where else. (Opinion page of NY TImes? ha ha ha)

CM
   
  
   
  
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Re: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wiki

[Marie Earley]

Reclaim the night have just celebrated their 10th anniversary here in the UK 
http://www.reclaimthenight.co.uk/

I like the idea, not sure what it would look like in practice. I can't help 
thinking we have them already with women's edit-a-thons. The thing that strikes 
me about them is they tend to be about women writers, scientists, women's 
history - all valuable, but where are edit-a-thons for women economists, 
politicians and entrepreneurs?

It's one of the reasons I stick to cleaning up bibliographies and creating new 
blps - after drafting the hell out them to make them bullet-proof first. 

Marie

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 11:51:47 -0500
From: klmcc...@gmail.com
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wiki

The only solution would be lack of anonymity. That won't fly, but it would 
cause the creepiness to go away.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:42 AM, JJ Marr  wrote:
What do you propose a "take back the night" would be like?
On Nov 30, 2014 8:12 AM, "Kathleen McCook"  wrote:
Yes, one can see easily how they move from topic to topic. Connected and 
ensuring their POV dominates.
The issue of feminism should not be defined by men whose motivation seems to be 
to create an environment where  women are "free" to be what they (the men 
discussed here ) imagine to us to be.
I believe that Marie's statements about keeping these issues off one's main 
course are the result of continuous attacks.
Wikipedia needs a TAKE BACK THE NIGHT movement. In my days on campus women 
attacked were  told they shouldn't be out at night.So marches began to TAKE 
BACK THE NIGHT.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:16 AM, JJ Marr  wrote:
To quote you in the context of your dispute over a video, you say "I dispute 
that it "makes little sense" and why does it even need to add informational 
value? Why can't it just be to add aesthetics to the article as pictures and 
videos often are?” I ask why don't you take that dispute up with the editor in 
question?
Also, you need to be more clear in what you are saying. I have no context to 
this message, and I think it is a complaint about a content dispute.
Please explain why this is relevant to the gender gap, since you are sending it 
out to everyone on the gender gap mailing list, and secondly, why a minor 
content dispute on enwiki is relevant to the  Wikimedia gender gap community as 
a whole. 
On Nov 30, 2014 1:47 AM, "Marie Earley"  wrote:









Not sure if this will produce a new thread or attach to the existing one (I've 
checked my spam folder, there's nothing there) but anyway

Tim: I just wondered whether you regard this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Moving_forward

...as a lack of civility or a gender gap issue?

In particular this comment:
"...As has been indicated on the talk page of the proposed decision, 
repeatedly, there is some question as to exactly which
 women this group seems to be reaching out toward, specifically, whether
 it is more or less of a more or less radical feminist perspective"

I thought it summed up in a nutshell what the GGTF was really up against. It's 
a kind of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism 
* Are you now or have you ever been a feminist who believes that sex work is 
the opposite of feminism?
Anyone who answers yes that question is judged to be a "radical", a subversive 
who wants to push POV and therefore they are fair game. 

On WP's list of feminists there were a very odd mish-mash of categories of 
feminist 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feminists&oldid=544136790 
and lots of names missing e.g. Gail Dines. I did a major rewrite to organize it 
chronologically and it meant that "anti-pornography feminists", 
"anti-prostitution feminists" and "socialist feminists" could go onto the list 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feminists&oldid=545667727 

The list has recently been changed to this: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists and I'm working with a couple 
of editors to see how we can improve it further. 

I've largely avoided trouble by sticking to admin based work such as this, and 
similar work:
Cleaning up bibliographies, e.g. Joseph Schumpeter, from this: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeter&oldid=633566034#Major_works
 to this: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeter&oldid=634343909#Major_works
  
Creating an article for the International Association for Feminist Economics 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_for_Feminist_Economics 
 and improving the article for the Human Development and Capability Association 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_and_Capability_Association 
then creating biographies for past presidents of IAFFE and fellows of the HDCA. 
Adding DOBs to notable scholars and then adding them to Wiki's calendar 
(births). 

These organisations / individuals argues against se

Re: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wiki

[Carol Moore dc]

On 11/30/2014 11:51 AM, Kathleen McCook wrote:
The only solution would be lack of anonymity. That won't fly, but it 
would cause the creepiness to go away.


I used to think that too.  But some people don't care about people 
knowing who they are, what they think or who the mess with.  I don't 
care that much about anonymity and have said a few problematic things 
(usually under intense harassment). Assuming he really is "Eric 
Corbett", he's said a lot.  Sitush has outed who he really is at least 
three times and redacted only one, so that's widely known. Same is true 
for a lot of individuals, some of whom flame away just within the 
boundaries of NPA.


The problem is there are all sorts of harassers out there, some of them 
paid by govts, who will harass or come after individuals who disagree 
with them or who criticize their favorite program, politician, party or 
country.


Better would be a sliding scale of privileges depending on whether you 
are an IP or registered and confirmed and whether you are at least 
willing to admit who you are to the Foundation, including confirming via 
phone or skype. The latter would be mandatory to become an Admin or an 
Arbitrator or to retain editing privileges after violating important 
policies repeatedly.


This would work REALLY good to stop BLP violations which have been the 
biggest time sink for me, at least until GGTF.  Once the Foundation 
knows who you are, it's really easy for pissed off subjects of trashy 
BLPs to get a subpoena and sue your butt.


I have a list of good ideas in formulation, some drawn from previous 
discussions, and one of these days soon will post here, at my 
carolmoore.net/wikipedia, at the new youtube site and who knows where 
else. (Opinion page of NY TImes? ha ha ha)


CM
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Re: [Gendergap] coordination work off-wiki

[JJ Marr]

You could go to Citizendium, considering that has a lack of anonymity and
strict civility rules.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizendium
http://citizendium.org/
On Nov 30, 2014 11:52 AM, "Kathleen McCook"  wrote:

> The only solution would be lack of anonymity. That won't fly, but it would
> cause the creepiness to go away.
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:42 AM, JJ Marr  wrote:
>
>> What do you propose a "take back the night" would be like?
>> On Nov 30, 2014 8:12 AM, "Kathleen McCook"  wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, one can see easily how they move from topic to topic. Connected and
>>> ensuring their POV dominates.
>>>
>>> The issue of feminism should not be defined by men whose motivation
>>> seems to be to create an environment where  women are "free" to be what
>>> they (the men discussed here ) imagine to us to be.
>>>
>>> I believe that Marie's statements about keeping these issues off one's
>>> main course are the result of continuous attacks.
>>>
>>> Wikipedia needs a TAKE BACK THE NIGHT movement. In my days on campus
>>> women attacked were  told they shouldn't be out at night.So marches began
>>> to TAKE BACK THE NIGHT.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:16 AM, JJ Marr  wrote:
>>>
 To quote you in the context of your dispute over a video, you say "I
 dispute that it "makes little sense" and why does it even need to add
 informational value? Why can't it just be to add aesthetics to the article
 as pictures and videos often are?" I ask why don't you take that dispute up
 with the editor in question?

 Also, you need to be more clear in what you are saying. I have no
 context to this message, and I think it is a complaint about a content
 dispute.

 Please explain why this is relevant to the gender gap, since you are
 sending it out to everyone on the gender gap mailing list, and secondly,
 why a minor content dispute on enwiki is relevant to the  Wikimedia gender
 gap community as a whole.
 On Nov 30, 2014 1:47 AM, "Marie Earley"  wrote:

>  Not sure if this will produce a new thread or attach to the existing
> one (I've checked my spam folder, there's nothing there) but anyway
>
> Tim: I just wondered whether you regard this:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Moving_forward
>
> ...as a lack of civility or a gender gap issue?
>
> In particular this comment:
> "...As has been indicated on the talk page of the proposed decision,
> *repeatedly,* there is some question as to exactly *which* women this
> group seems to be reaching out toward, specifically, whether it is more or
> less of a more or less radical feminist perspective"
>
> I thought it summed up in a nutshell what the GGTF was really up
> against. It's a kind of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
> * Are you now or have you ever been a feminist who believes that sex
> work is the opposite of feminism?
> Anyone who answers yes that question is judged to be a "radical", a
> subversive who wants to push POV and therefore they are fair game.
>
> On WP's list of feminists there were a very odd mish-mash of
> categories of feminist
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feminists&oldid=544136790
> and lots of names missing e.g. Gail Dines. I did a major rewrite to
> organize it chronologically and it meant that "anti-pornography 
> feminists",
> "anti-prostitution feminists" and "socialist feminists" could go onto the
> list
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_feminists&oldid=545667727
>
> The list has recently been changed to this:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feminists and I'm working with
> a couple of editors to see how we can improve it further.
>
> I've largely avoided trouble by sticking to admin based work such as
> this, and similar work:
> Cleaning up bibliographies, e.g. Joseph Schumpeter, from this:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeter&oldid=633566034#Major_works
> to this:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Schumpeter&oldid=634343909#Major_works
>
> Creating an article for the International Association for Feminist
> Economics
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Association_for_Feminist_Economics
>  and improving the article for the Human Development and Capability
> Association
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_and_Capability_Association
> then creating biographies for past presidents of IAFFE and fellows of
> the HDCA.
> Adding DOBs to notable scholars and then adding them to Wiki's
> calendar (births).
>
> These organisations / individuals argues against sex work on the
> grounds of the perception of women that is generated (i.e. as a thing /
> object). Th