[Gendergap] Hi Gender Gap list
Hi there, I'm messaging from Philadelphia, where I've been the director of a small hackerspace named The Hacktory for a number of years. We've developed a devoted if small following that has a good gender balance, and we continue to attract people of different genders who value gender equality and diversity. I attended Adacamp DC two summers ago and thought it was awesome, and I've really enjoyed the posts Sumana Harihareswara on the Adacamp list has been sharing about her own reflections on the Gender Gap issue. At The Hacktory we also developed a workshop we call Hacking the Gender Gap to help people talk and understand the Gender Gap, which is been well received in a number of technical and community groups. This also lead to me being invited to write about the topic for Make:Zine (Make Magazine's online blog) and r recently in their print magazine: http://makezine.com/magazine/make-40/where-are-the-women/ I've found an overwhelming interest in this topic in our local community and visitors to The Hacktory, and I try to point them towards other resources and sources as much as possible. I'm very interested to be part of the discussion here for that reason but also to keep tabs on the conversation in general. Look forward to hearing more, Best, Georgia -- Executive Director, The Hacktory http://www.thehacktory.org/ (215) 650-7295 @The_Hacktory ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Hi Gender Gap list
Welcome, Georgia. :-) Looks interesting. I'll be sure to check it all out. Sydney Sydney Poore User:FloNight Wikipedian in Residence at Cochrane Collaboration On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Georgia Guthrie geor...@thehacktory.org wrote: Hi there, I'm messaging from Philadelphia, where I've been the director of a small hackerspace named The Hacktory for a number of years. We've developed a devoted if small following that has a good gender balance, and we continue to attract people of different genders who value gender equality and diversity. I attended Adacamp DC two summers ago and thought it was awesome, and I've really enjoyed the posts Sumana Harihareswara on the Adacamp list has been sharing about her own reflections on the Gender Gap issue. At The Hacktory we also developed a workshop we call Hacking the Gender Gap to help people talk and understand the Gender Gap, which is been well received in a number of technical and community groups. This also lead to me being invited to write about the topic for Make:Zine (Make Magazine's online blog) and r recently in their print magazine: http://makezine.com/magazine/make-40/where-are-the-women/ I've found an overwhelming interest in this topic in our local community and visitors to The Hacktory, and I try to point them towards other resources and sources as much as possible. I'm very interested to be part of the discussion here for that reason but also to keep tabs on the conversation in general. Look forward to hearing more, Best, Georgia -- Executive Director, The Hacktory http://www.thehacktory.org/ (215) 650-7295 @The_Hacktory ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Novel by Woman-Notability
Hi Kathleen, I suppose you are writing about this revision (or thereabouts): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=October_(novel)direction=nextoldid=617753940 A notability tag is not a Scarlet A: it is merely a sign that the notability of the topic hasn't been sufficiently asserted. The best way to avoid it? Choose multiple, clear, independent sources. Check the subject-specific notability guidelines. For books, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(books) Given a revision with two sources, one from a little-known site called we love this book, it's unsurprising! Remember that editors come from all backgrounds and we don't all know as much as/the same things as you! I've thought a lot about notability, as a researcher, so if you want to talk more about it, let me know! -Jodi On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote: The reason I asked to discuss here is to ascertain whether or not there seems to be a different set of notability standards by gender. I encourage students to contribute to Wikipedia. But when notability is an editor's decision with so many exceptions...how do you encourage? Really, I am careful and if a book by a brilliant woman like Zoe Wicomb causes notability queries..how, on earth, can this gender gap be addressed? Here is Ms. Wicomb's prize announcement at Yale. http://windhamcampbell.org/2013/winner/zo%C3%AB-wicomb On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case danc...@frontiernet.net wrote: On what basis in Clive Cussler notable? That he’s a regular denizen of the bestseller lists in many countries who’s had works adapted into major motion pictures (To be honest, I think we should say that “all published works by authors who have their paperbacks displayed prominently in the racks near the front of bookstores at airports are notable [image: Smile]“). Well, I don't know. I had never heard of Cussler before today (don't spend a lot of time in airport bookshops), but I did look at a couple of his novels' Wikipedia articles, and they didn't indicate significance any better than the October article. (One of them had a single, ephemeral reference; the other had 7 that seemed pretty thin.) I can see how Kathleen would be frustrated by what surely appears from her perspective to be a double standard. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Novel by Woman-Notability
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: If you're looking to have the students engage with Wikipedia's systemic bias, I think it might be more worthwhile to have them evaluate existing deletion debates (and similar discussions) -- rather than having them contribute directly to Wikipedia. That's an interesting idea, Pete! If that sounds like a meaningful classroom exercise, I'd be happy to get involved. My dissertation research used deletion debates as a case study -- the Research Newsletter has a couple of writeups here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter/2012/September#cite_ref-11 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter/2013/May#In_brief I think it would be easier for them to look at a larger number of cases, and observe without having their personal attachment to an article come into play, if they read stuff that they haven't been involved in. Detachment certainly helps! Another way to look at systemic bias is to connect to current research about how - geographic coverage varies - language editions have different depths and coverage Happy to talk further if that interests anybody... -Jodi -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Novel by Woman-Notability
She's an African woman. She's won Yale's big prize. She is notable except this guy thought she wasn't.The I LOVE THIS book site mean to show she also had a general appeal. I see how they expect so much more to justify notability for a woman of color than a male author of potboilers. It's discouraging and the gender list even more so. Thanks for your input. I just don't think the wikipeople feel women count. They have to show so much more than the men. Thank you for taking the time. -K On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Jodi Schneider jschnei...@pobox.com wrote: Hi Kathleen, I suppose you are writing about this revision (or thereabouts): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=October_(novel)direction=nextoldid=617753940 A notability tag is not a Scarlet A: it is merely a sign that the notability of the topic hasn't been sufficiently asserted. The best way to avoid it? Choose multiple, clear, independent sources. Check the subject-specific notability guidelines. For books, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(books) Given a revision with two sources, one from a little-known site called we love this book, it's unsurprising! Remember that editors come from all backgrounds and we don't all know as much as/the same things as you! I've thought a lot about notability, as a researcher, so if you want to talk more about it, let me know! -Jodi On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote: The reason I asked to discuss here is to ascertain whether or not there seems to be a different set of notability standards by gender. I encourage students to contribute to Wikipedia. But when notability is an editor's decision with so many exceptions...how do you encourage? Really, I am careful and if a book by a brilliant woman like Zoe Wicomb causes notability queries..how, on earth, can this gender gap be addressed? Here is Ms. Wicomb's prize announcement at Yale. http://windhamcampbell.org/2013/winner/zo%C3%AB-wicomb On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case danc...@frontiernet.net wrote: On what basis in Clive Cussler notable? That he’s a regular denizen of the bestseller lists in many countries who’s had works adapted into major motion pictures (To be honest, I think we should say that “all published works by authors who have their paperbacks displayed prominently in the racks near the front of bookstores at airports are notable [image: Smile]“). Well, I don't know. I had never heard of Cussler before today (don't spend a lot of time in airport bookshops), but I did look at a couple of his novels' Wikipedia articles, and they didn't indicate significance any better than the October article. (One of them had a single, ephemeral reference; the other had 7 that seemed pretty thin.) I can see how Kathleen would be frustrated by what surely appears from her perspective to be a double standard. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons
I presume that uploaders only upload images they are personally comfortable with, so it is almost axiomatic that it would be others who would probably add such classifications, just as occurs with movies. I have no idea how IMDB make it work, but they do and they are using volunteers too. I note that IMDB use a 1-to-10 scale for the classifications. Maybe they just let people vote and the result is the average. But, whether or not my proposal can work, I think we have to use this list to put forward ideas with a view to rolling out some kind of trial/pilot/experiment. The gender gap is of long standing and is unlikely to spontaneously disappear by just talking about it. Kerry _ From: Carol Moore dc [mailto:carolmoor...@verizon.net] Sent: Friday, 25 July 2014 6:34 AM To: kerry.raym...@gmail.com; Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects. Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons While this can work in some situations, in a Wiki run by volunteers you rely on people to accurately self-classify their work, which many would not. Or you rely on other volunteers changing the rating. Whether up or down, it probably will lead to a big debate. This dozens or even hundreds of debates a day, which would be quite time consuming. Too many people already try to AfD photos for phony reasons. (I don't like that person; I don't believe you took the picture! being one I encountered myself.) On 7/23/2014 9:51 PM, Kerry Raymond wrote: I agree that offensiveness is in the eye of the beholder. And while there may be all manner of very niche groups who find strange things offensiveness, maybe some people object to seeing refrigerators or reading about cakes, nonetheless we know that there are a lot of widespread categories of offensiveness that generate the bulk of discussions about the inclusion of items on Wikipedia or Commons. What we could do is to have to some system of classification (like the movies) for articles, images, and/or categories indicating that they are potentially offensive for various reasons. Perhaps along similar lines to the content advisories in IMDB, e.g. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0295297/parentalguide?ref_=tt_stry_pg People could then put in their profiles that all classifications are acceptable or them or that these are the classifications they don't want to see (e.g. Sex and Nudity, Gore and Violence, Profanity, etc - obviously our classifications might not be identical to IMDB as we are dealing with different kinds of content but you get the idea). When that person searches Wikipedia or Commons, then those articles, images and categories that they would find offensive are not returned. When a person reads an article containing an offensive-to-them categorised image, it is simply not displayed or some image saying Suppressed at your request (Sex and Nudity). We could possibly bundle such these finer classifications into common collections, e.g. Inappropriate for Children, Suitable for Muslims, or whatever, so for many people it's a simple tick-one-box. For anonymous users or users who have not explicitly set their preferences, rendering of an article or image could first ask This article/image has been tagged as potentially offensive for SuchAndSuch reason, click OK to confirm you want to view it. If they are a logged-in user, it could also offer a link to set their preferences for future use. I note that movies are often made with variants for different countries. Sometimes that's simply a matter of being dubbed into another language but it can also include the deletion (or replacement) of certain scenes or language that would be offensive in those countries. So it is not as if we are reinventing the wheel here, just customising it to Wikipedia. Kerry ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Novel by Woman-Notability
She's an African woman. She's won Yale's big prize. Which, as I’ve noted, wasn’t even mentioned in the article at the time the tag was placed. She is notable except this guy thought she wasn't. The placing of the tag doesn’t mean (necessarily) that he doubted her notability, as Jodi just pointed out. It means that he didn’t see it asserted, and was perhaps trying to goad you to add that to the article. I see how they expect so much more to justify notability for a woman of color than a male author of potboilers. Well, as I did point out a day or so ago, someone tagged an article on one of Cussler’s books with the same tag nine months ago. And it’s still there. Daniel Case___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
