Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Hi, Oh dear, it looks like HTTP [1] isn’t in compliance either. "Membership can be revoked by a unanimous vote of all the active PMC members other than the member in question.” And this is probably where the 6 months term come from, that pops up everywhere re inactive PMC members. "A PMC member is considered inactive by their own declaration or by not contributing in any form to the project for over six months. An inactive member can become active again by reversing whichever condition made them inactive.” Thanks, Justin 1. https://httpd.apache.org/dev/guidelines.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
On 03/09/18 05:53, P. Taylor Goetz wrote: > > >> On Sep 3, 2018, at 12:10 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >> >> Personally, I'd prefer that the concept of project bylaws disappear. Move >> to "community guides". A *guide* rather than a *ruleset*. The Board has >> kinda gone quiet on the discussion, but hopefully it will pick it back up, >> to provide some guidance here. > > ++1 > > All projects need is sane (in ASF terms) developer guidelines. Exactly. Repeating some points I made on board@ There is a lot of good content in project bylaws. Some project bylaws duplicate content that exists at the foundation level. I think that sort of duplication is unhelpful as, over time, the duplicates tend to diverge. I would prefer to see the project level content as community guidelines. Codifying them as bylaws makes them harder to change and reduces flexibility. For example, some project level bylaws appear require a 72 hour voting period for a release. That might not be in the best interest of the project if a security release needs to be made in a hurry. I have seen release votes that have lasted just a few hours when a security fix needed to be made quickly. A further issue is that if a security release is made with a voting period of less than 72 hours is that still an act of the foundation if it violates the project's bylaws? I don't know the answer to that question and I don't think it is a good use of anyone's time figuring it out. Similarly, I can think a several situations where I've used CTR on an RTC branch because - in my judgement - doing so was in the best interests of the project. (And as it happens none of the committers at the time disagreed.) It is my view that codifying a PMC's standard way of operating in bylaws can limit the PMC's options when dealing with non-standard situations. I think it is better for the PMC to retain the flexibility to use if they need to. Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Hi, > Yet conceptually, those are the "default project bylaws" should a PMC not > decide to write up something else. Yep and that’s why while podling sometime gets little lost or just copy and paste others thinking they are correct. The same happens with LICENSE/NOTICE files so we probably shouldn’t be surprised by this. :-) > We'll get there. > > Personally, I'd prefer that the concept of project bylaws disappear. Move > to "community guides". A *guide* rather than a *ruleset*. I’m fine with calling them guidelines, but the board would need to agree to the word change in the TLP document. I can find (or put together) a set of bylaws/guideline that I think follows all ASF policy and we can put it up (as draft) for the board to look at and other IPMC members to review, and perhaps ask them to accept it as the default set? Do people think that’s a good way forward? Thanks, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
> On Sep 3, 2018, at 12:10 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > > Personally, I'd prefer that the concept of project bylaws disappear. Move > to "community guides". A *guide* rather than a *ruleset*. The Board has > kinda gone quiet on the discussion, but hopefully it will pick it back up, > to provide some guidance here. ++1 All projects need is sane (in ASF terms) developer guidelines. -Taylor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
hehe.. and I agree with both of you :-) But when the concept of "foundation-level project bylaws" came up, that is where they are. Not labeled as such, not explained well, etc. Agreed. Yet conceptually, those are the "default project bylaws" should a PMC not decide to write up something else. We'll get there. Personally, I'd prefer that the concept of project bylaws disappear. Move to "community guides". A *guide* rather than a *ruleset*. The Board has kinda gone quiet on the discussion, but hopefully it will pick it back up, to provide some guidance here. Cheers, -g On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 8:03 PM P. Taylor Goetz wrote: > Greg, > > I agree with Justin. > > I know from experience what the “defaults” are, but to a newcomer, it’s > likely anything but clear. The project-specific ones you reference make no > reference to being bylaws, hence my description of them as “policy.” > > If we could clearly delineate between Foundation Bylaws and Project > Bylaws, with both preferably outlined on a single page, I think that would > help resolve some of the confusion. > > -Taylor > > > On Sep 2, 2018, at 7:57 PM, Justin Mclean wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > >> There are two types of "bylaws" at the Foundation level. The official > ones > >> you're referring to, and the project ones under dev/ (the "how it works" > >> stuff). > > > > And the issue with the later is not 100% clear what they are, and while > they are mostly documented in various places and reasonably well understood > there’s some cracks and some things are open to interpretation. While > having “the default" certainly works in just about all cases, it can fall > down in situations where it’s probably most needed. > > > > It could possibly be a good idea, if the board took a look as some > existing TLP projects bylaws, picked a set they agree with and we could > made that the default set for new projects to use. > > > > Thanks, > > Justin > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Hi - Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2018, at 3:29 PM, P. Taylor Goetz wrote: > > Aren’t the foundation-level bylaws about how the ASF operates as a non-profit > business? > > I may be missing something, but ASF bylaws don’t address project management, > ASF policy does. The trouble is that projects are copying bylaws from each other which do not conform to ASF policy. In particular they are copying the project “killing” 6 month inactivity means automatic PMC emeritus measure when there is no such thing at the foundation level. From the IPMC and board side we expect that new projects have learned the Apache Way before they graduate and then we task them With making it up after the fact. I agree with Greg that the Board should make the call, but I do think the IPMC should make a recommendation. I do not think that projects should have to opt out of making bylaws. I think that they should make policies including voting policies that fit the “minimal” Apache policies. Regards, Dave > > -Taylor > >> On Sep 2, 2018, at 5:25 PM, John D. Ament wrote: >> >> -private list for now. >> >> >> I disagree with removing the bylaws clause. It's assumed your going to use >> the ASF level bylaws if you don't have another one. >> >>> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 14:29 Dave Fisher wrote: >>> >>> Note the cross-posting between public and private mailing lists. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> On Sep 2, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail >>> wrote: Good point, Dave. +board as this was an issue with emeritus pmc and project bylaws > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 12:37 Dave Fisher wrote: > > Hi - > > Pulsar is currently discussing a graduation proposal and Taylor noticed > the following that came out of the whimsy boilerplate. > > Quick question: > > RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Pulsar PMC be and hereby is tasked > with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open > development and increased participation in the Apache Pulsar Project; > and be it further > > > Does the Pulsar PPMC feel the need to adopt bylaws (it’s not required), >>> or > are the Apache defaults acceptable? > > One option is to simply not have bylaws, which means you would simply > adhere to [1] and [2], and put any clarifications in a contributors’ >>> guide > (which you’ve done). > > -Taylor > > [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html > [2] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html > > > I think that this clause needs to be removed from the template. > > Regards, > Dave > > >>> >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>> >>> > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Greg, I agree with Justin. I know from experience what the “defaults” are, but to a newcomer, it’s likely anything but clear. The project-specific ones you reference make no reference to being bylaws, hence my description of them as “policy.” If we could clearly delineate between Foundation Bylaws and Project Bylaws, with both preferably outlined on a single page, I think that would help resolve some of the confusion. -Taylor > On Sep 2, 2018, at 7:57 PM, Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > >> There are two types of "bylaws" at the Foundation level. The official ones >> you're referring to, and the project ones under dev/ (the "how it works" >> stuff). > > And the issue with the later is not 100% clear what they are, and while they > are mostly documented in various places and reasonably well understood > there’s some cracks and some things are open to interpretation. While having > “the default" certainly works in just about all cases, it can fall down in > situations where it’s probably most needed. > > It could possibly be a good idea, if the board took a look as some existing > TLP projects bylaws, picked a set they agree with and we could made that the > default set for new projects to use. > > Thanks, > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Board@ is the private list while general@incubator is public. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > > Apologies. Did not know general@ was a private list. > >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 14:29 Dave Fisher wrote: >> >> Note the cross-posting between public and private mailing lists. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 2, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail >> wrote: >>> >>> Good point, Dave. +board as this was an issue with emeritus pmc and >>> project bylaws >>> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 12:37 Dave Fisher wrote: Hi - Pulsar is currently discussing a graduation proposal and Taylor noticed the following that came out of the whimsy boilerplate. Quick question: RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Pulsar PMC be and hereby is tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open development and increased participation in the Apache Pulsar Project; and be it further Does the Pulsar PPMC feel the need to adopt bylaws (it’s not required), >> or are the Apache defaults acceptable? One option is to simply not have bylaws, which means you would simply adhere to [1] and [2], and put any clarifications in a contributors’ >> guide (which you’ve done). -Taylor [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html [2] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html I think that this clause needs to be removed from the template. Regards, Dave >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Apologies. Did not know general@ was a private list. On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 14:29 Dave Fisher wrote: > Note the cross-posting between public and private mailing lists. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 2, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail > wrote: > > > > Good point, Dave. +board as this was an issue with emeritus pmc and > > project bylaws > > > >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 12:37 Dave Fisher wrote: > >> > >> Hi - > >> > >> Pulsar is currently discussing a graduation proposal and Taylor noticed > >> the following that came out of the whimsy boilerplate. > >> > >> Quick question: > >> > >> RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Pulsar PMC be and hereby is tasked > >> with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open > >> development and increased participation in the Apache Pulsar Project; > >> and be it further > >> > >> > >> Does the Pulsar PPMC feel the need to adopt bylaws (it’s not required), > or > >> are the Apache defaults acceptable? > >> > >> One option is to simply not have bylaws, which means you would simply > >> adhere to [1] and [2], and put any clarifications in a contributors’ > guide > >> (which you’ve done). > >> > >> -Taylor > >> > >> [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html > >> [2] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html > >> > >> > >> I think that this clause needs to be removed from the template. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Dave > >> > >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Hi, > There are two types of "bylaws" at the Foundation level. The official ones > you're referring to, and the project ones under dev/ (the "how it works" > stuff). And the issue with the later is not 100% clear what they are, and while they are mostly documented in various places and reasonably well understood there’s some cracks and some things are open to interpretation. While having “the default" certainly works in just about all cases, it can fall down in situations where it’s probably most needed. It could possibly be a good idea, if the board took a look as some existing TLP projects bylaws, picked a set they agree with and we could made that the default set for new projects to use. Thanks, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 5:30 PM P. Taylor Goetz wrote: > Aren’t the foundation-level bylaws about how the ASF operates as a > non-profit business? > There are two types of "bylaws" at the Foundation level. The official ones you're referring to, and the project ones under dev/ (the "how it works" stuff). In any case, the Board needs to provide guidance. The IPMC probably shouldn't just make up some new project-creation resolution wording. Cheers, -g
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Aren’t the foundation-level bylaws about how the ASF operates as a non-profit business? I may be missing something, but ASF bylaws don’t address project management, ASF policy does. -Taylor > On Sep 2, 2018, at 5:25 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > > -private list for now. > > > I disagree with removing the bylaws clause. It's assumed your going to use > the ASF level bylaws if you don't have another one. > >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 14:29 Dave Fisher wrote: >> >> Note the cross-posting between public and private mailing lists. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Sep 2, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail >> wrote: >>> >>> Good point, Dave. +board as this was an issue with emeritus pmc and >>> project bylaws >>> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 12:37 Dave Fisher wrote: Hi - Pulsar is currently discussing a graduation proposal and Taylor noticed the following that came out of the whimsy boilerplate. Quick question: RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Pulsar PMC be and hereby is tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open development and increased participation in the Apache Pulsar Project; and be it further Does the Pulsar PPMC feel the need to adopt bylaws (it’s not required), >> or are the Apache defaults acceptable? One option is to simply not have bylaws, which means you would simply adhere to [1] and [2], and put any clarifications in a contributors’ >> guide (which you’ve done). -Taylor [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html [2] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html I think that this clause needs to be removed from the template. Regards, Dave >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
John, The clause as written right now doesn't speak to the ASF level bylaws. It gives the PMC the specific tasking to create bylaws. If not removed the language should probably change to not encourage creation of new bylaws but rather understand the implicit adoption of the ASF level bylaws. Thanks On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 5:25 PM John D. Ament wrote: > > -private list for now. > > > I disagree with removing the bylaws clause. It's assumed your going to use > the ASF level bylaws if you don't have another one. > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 14:29 Dave Fisher wrote: > > > Note the cross-posting between public and private mailing lists. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Sep 2, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail > > wrote: > > > > > > Good point, Dave. +board as this was an issue with emeritus pmc and > > > project bylaws > > > > > >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 12:37 Dave Fisher wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi - > > >> > > >> Pulsar is currently discussing a graduation proposal and Taylor noticed > > >> the following that came out of the whimsy boilerplate. > > >> > > >> Quick question: > > >> > > >> RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Pulsar PMC be and hereby is tasked > > >> with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open > > >> development and increased participation in the Apache Pulsar Project; > > >> and be it further > > >> > > >> > > >> Does the Pulsar PPMC feel the need to adopt bylaws (it’s not required), > > or > > >> are the Apache defaults acceptable? > > >> > > >> One option is to simply not have bylaws, which means you would simply > > >> adhere to [1] and [2], and put any clarifications in a contributors’ > > guide > > >> (which you’ve done). > > >> > > >> -Taylor > > >> > > >> [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html > > >> [2] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html > > >> > > >> > > >> I think that this clause needs to be removed from the template. > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> Dave > > >> > > >> > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
-private list for now. I disagree with removing the bylaws clause. It's assumed your going to use the ASF level bylaws if you don't have another one. On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 14:29 Dave Fisher wrote: > Note the cross-posting between public and private mailing lists. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Sep 2, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail > wrote: > > > > Good point, Dave. +board as this was an issue with emeritus pmc and > > project bylaws > > > >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 12:37 Dave Fisher wrote: > >> > >> Hi - > >> > >> Pulsar is currently discussing a graduation proposal and Taylor noticed > >> the following that came out of the whimsy boilerplate. > >> > >> Quick question: > >> > >> RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Pulsar PMC be and hereby is tasked > >> with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open > >> development and increased participation in the Apache Pulsar Project; > >> and be it further > >> > >> > >> Does the Pulsar PPMC feel the need to adopt bylaws (it’s not required), > or > >> are the Apache defaults acceptable? > >> > >> One option is to simply not have bylaws, which means you would simply > >> adhere to [1] and [2], and put any clarifications in a contributors’ > guide > >> (which you’ve done). > >> > >> -Taylor > >> > >> [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html > >> [2] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html > >> > >> > >> I think that this clause needs to be removed from the template. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Dave > >> > >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Note the cross-posting between public and private mailing lists. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote: > > Good point, Dave. +board as this was an issue with emeritus pmc and > project bylaws > >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 12:37 Dave Fisher wrote: >> >> Hi - >> >> Pulsar is currently discussing a graduation proposal and Taylor noticed >> the following that came out of the whimsy boilerplate. >> >> Quick question: >> >> RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Pulsar PMC be and hereby is tasked >> with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open >> development and increased participation in the Apache Pulsar Project; >> and be it further >> >> >> Does the Pulsar PPMC feel the need to adopt bylaws (it’s not required), or >> are the Apache defaults acceptable? >> >> One option is to simply not have bylaws, which means you would simply >> adhere to [1] and [2], and put any clarifications in a contributors’ guide >> (which you’ve done). >> >> -Taylor >> >> [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html >> [2] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html >> >> >> I think that this clause needs to be removed from the template. >> >> Regards, >> Dave >> >> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Graduation Resolutions Should Not Include Project Bylaws Clause
Good point, Dave. +board as this was an issue with emeritus pmc and project bylaws On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 12:37 Dave Fisher wrote: > Hi - > > Pulsar is currently discussing a graduation proposal and Taylor noticed > the following that came out of the whimsy boilerplate. > > Quick question: > > RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Pulsar PMC be and hereby is tasked > with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open > development and increased participation in the Apache Pulsar Project; > and be it further > > > Does the Pulsar PPMC feel the need to adopt bylaws (it’s not required), or > are the Apache defaults acceptable? > > One option is to simply not have bylaws, which means you would simply > adhere to [1] and [2], and put any clarifications in a contributors’ guide > (which you’ve done). > > -Taylor > > [1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html > [2] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html > > > I think that this clause needs to be removed from the template. > > Regards, > Dave > >
