Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Berin Loritsch]

Peter Donald wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:29, Geoff Soutter wrote:
> > > Another key
> > > difference is the emphasis on ubiquity.
> >
> > Yes, seems to me this one of the main difference (apart from the
> > "marketing" aspects). This comes from using a public, "free" network rather
> > than private, fee based network to transmit the data.
> 
> I wonder how long that will last. I don't have any experience in this area
> but I would find it insane for any decent sized organization to rely on the
> internet for any time sensitive data. Imagine what happens when network goes
> down or slows up. Time sensitive data may not be delivered on time and thus
> may incur fines or may have to wait till next delivery period. And I would
> hazard to guess that this could be costly for the organiztion.

Every example I have seen for web services would lay in the area of
"trivial
applications".  These are not full service EDI applications.  However,
the
web services technologies can be adapted for private fee based networks
to
replace aging mainframes and COBOL code.

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Peter Donald]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:29, Geoff Soutter wrote:
> > Another key
> > difference is the emphasis on ubiquity.
>
> Yes, seems to me this one of the main difference (apart from the
> "marketing" aspects). This comes from using a public, "free" network rather
> than private, fee based network to transmit the data.

I wonder how long that will last. I don't have any experience in this area 
but I would find it insane for any decent sized organization to rely on the 
internet for any time sensitive data. Imagine what happens when network goes 
down or slows up. Time sensitive data may not be delivered on time and thus 
may incur fines or may have to wait till next delivery period. And I would 
hazard to guess that this could be costly for the organiztion.

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Geoff Soutter]

"Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Geoff Soutter wrote:
> >
> > Isn't Web Services basically just the EDI concept with a trendy new
name?

[snip]

> This is true to a large extent.  There are two key differences though:
the
> information is in a standard format (XML) which only requires a generic
parser
> to read

Hmm. EDI used "standard" formats defined by ANSI X.12 and EDIFACT. Simple
line based things which were easy to write to with COBOL. XML is a better
fit for the business language of the day in this case, Java, but it's not
really any more "standard".

>  and the addition of automatic discovery of services.

IMHO, this is the part that is likely to not work. Getting applications to
discover each other and talk together effectively without prior planning is
_hard_ for anything thats not trivial.

> Another key
> difference is the emphasis on ubiquity.

Yes, seems to me this one of the main difference (apart from the "marketing"
aspects). This comes from using a public, "free" network rather than
private, fee based network to transmit the data.

Also, Web services can work in real time because computers have so much more
grunt these days. EDI is all message based.

> I doubt Web Services will replace traditional EDI soon, but there are some
> neat things that the Web Services approach allows you which EDI does not
(at
> least my _very_limited_ understanding of EDI).  The first thing is UDDI
for
> automatic publication and registration of services offered.  EDI typically
> is set up on a company by company basis involving humans.  This approach
> cannot scale to the extent that Web Services claims to (i.e. like HTML web
sites).

UDDI is cool, but it's going to be very hard to make it work without humans.
You have to deal with the different applications at each end which have
different internal data structures, and yet use a common format that both
understand. UDDI itself is not that hard, but getting apps to agree on a
common format which everyone can use and which meets everyones business
needs is impossible.

Just take a look at the format for an EDIFACT Purchase Order document to see
what I mean. It's _way_ complex, and most people only implement a fraction
of it. Thus you need humans to agree which parts are going to be used, and
what the contents actually mean in a business sense.

> The second is the standard markup definition used for data exchange.  By
using
> XML, a company can choose the XML parser based on performance and load
criteria
> (something that EDI can't offer alot of choice in).

There are many companies offering EDI parsers that can deal with the
standard X.12 and EDIFACT syntaxes.

> Web Services is the next big idea for a smart web where things just
"work".
> One way I can see this take off is in a "smart kitchen".  Imagine if you
will
> the kitchen of the future where the refrigerators and cupboards keep track
of
> inventory and order groceries to be delivered on a "Just in Time" basis.
This
> of course would be first adopted by professional establishments, and then
find
> their way into everyday homes.  The scenario outlined above also buys into
the
> embedded market in what they preach.  It is a "realizable dream" in that
it
> can be done with today's technology--the business side of things has to be
worked
> out though.
>
> Web Services do have potential beyond what EDI preaches--and it is in
small services
> that can be combined into a larger service.  This is in contrast to one
large transaction
> with one party.  The interesting twist to Web Services is that you can
change the
> players that make up compound service without affecting the logic of the
service.

Aha. To me, these fall under the umbrella of 'trivial' apps. It's not hard
to define an interface for a light switch that everyone is happy with. A
refrigerator might be a bit harder :-).

Seems to me that companies like IBM, etc, that are backing web services are
marketing it like a next-gen EDI rather than like the JINI style stuff you
descibe above.

Don't get me wrong, I think EDI and Web services are great. Web Services may
go some way to make EDI style implementations easier, but they underlying
problems remain the same. As Chuck D. so eloquently said: Don't believe the
hype!

Cheers

Geoff



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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Peter Donald]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:48, Allen Levin wrote:
> Gentlemen and Gentlewomen,
>
> I know that this is not the place but... Based on the last two discussions,
> you aren't afraid of expressing you opinions. And, you are quite
> experienced with open source, so please excuse the question but this seems
> like a good place to ask it.
>
> My company is looking for a GUI front end for CVS, any recommendations?
>
> We use Linux as the development platform but many people edit on Windows
> using Exceed.

wincvs for win32 and the gnome port gcvs are useful. (Checkout 
www.wincvs.org).

Apparently cervista for KDE desktop is superior but I have never used it. 
Search on KDE website to find it.

>
> Thanks,
>
> a.l.
>
> Allen Levin
> Phone: (408) 626-8100 x232
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*

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RE: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Allen Levin]

Gentlemen and Gentlewomen,

I know that this is not the place but... Based on the last two discussions,
you aren't afraid of expressing you opinions. And, you are quite experienced
with open source, so please excuse the question but this seems like a good
place to ask it.

My company is looking for a GUI front end for CVS, any recommendations? 

We use Linux as the development platform but many people edit on Windows
using Exceed.

Thanks,

a.l.

Allen Levin
Phone: (408) 626-8100 x232
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Berin Loritsch]

Geoff Soutter wrote:
> 
> Isn't Web Services basically just the EDI concept with a trendy new name?
> 
> Applications have been talking to each other across company boundaries since
> the 80's after all.
> 
> Just ask the car makers who've done all their purchasing, etc via "web
> services" for aeons ... :-)

This is true to a large extent.  There are two key differences though:  the
information is in a standard format (XML) which only requires a generic parser
to read, and the addition of automatic discovery of services.  Another key
difference is the emphasis on ubiquity.

I doubt Web Services will replace traditional EDI soon, but there are some
neat things that the Web Services approach allows you which EDI does not (at
least my _very_limited_ understanding of EDI).  The first thing is UDDI for
automatic publication and registration of services offered.  EDI typically
is set up on a company by company basis involving humans.  This approach
cannot scale to the extent that Web Services claims to (i.e. like HTML web sites).
The second is the standard markup definition used for data exchange.  By using
XML, a company can choose the XML parser based on performance and load criteria
(something that EDI can't offer alot of choice in).

Web Services is the next big idea for a smart web where things just "work".
One way I can see this take off is in a "smart kitchen".  Imagine if you will
the kitchen of the future where the refrigerators and cupboards keep track of
inventory and order groceries to be delivered on a "Just in Time" basis.  This
of course would be first adopted by professional establishments, and then find
their way into everyday homes.  The scenario outlined above also buys into the
embedded market in what they preach.  It is a "realizable dream" in that it
can be done with today's technology--the business side of things has to be worked
out though.

Web Services do have potential beyond what EDI preaches--and it is in small services
that can be combined into a larger service.  This is in contrast to one large 
transaction
with one party.  The interesting twist to Web Services is that you can change the
players that make up compound service without affecting the logic of the service.

> 
> Geoff
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 1:23 AM
> Subject: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services
> 
> > Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
> > decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?
> >
> > 
> >
> > I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about
> how
> > to build a website with JSP.
> >
> > -jon
> >
> > -- Forwarded Message
> > From: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services
> >
> > Dear Developer:
> >
> > Judging from all the recent announcements in the industry, Web services is
> > clearly the next big thing.
> >
> > Sun Microsystems, Inc. invites members of the development community to
> > attend a one day Sun Headquarter Briefing on "Developing Web Services".
> > This Briefing is scheduled for Thursday, September 6, 2001.
> >
> > At this briefing, developers will receive first-hand information from the
> > very people who are working with this new generation of web services.
> > Developers will also learn how to start developing web services today.  In
> > addition, this briefing will attempt to clear the fog on web services
> > development including steps in the process such as design, create,
> assemble,
> > publish, and deploy.
> >
> > For more information or to register for the Briefing, go to:
> >
> > http://sdc.sun.com/briefings  or call:  1.800.795.7578
> >
> > PLEASE NOTE:  When you register on-line, please be sure to click the check
> > box on the upper left-hand of the description.
> >
> > See you at the Briefing!
> >
> > Ann Wilkins
> > Sun Headquarter Briefings
> > Phone:  +1-408-635-0854
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > -- End of Forwarded Message
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> 
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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Geoff Soutter]

"Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The one advantage that I think Web Services could have is if an
organization
> was setup to standardize these high-level contracts.

UN/EDIFACT. They've been doing this since the late 80's? :-)

http://directory.google.com/Top/Business/E-Commerce/Standards_and_Protocols/
EDIFACT/

Although I (seem to) remember they work in co-operation with someone like
OASIS these days.

Geoff



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Re: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services

[Geoff Soutter]

Isn't Web Services basically just the EDI concept with a trendy new name?

Applications have been talking to each other across company boundaries since
the 80's after all.

Just ask the car makers who've done all their purchasing, etc via "web
services" for aeons ... :-)

Geoff

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 1:23 AM
Subject: [OT] FW: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services


> Can someone explain to me what the heck "web services" are so that I can
> decide whether or not this is even worthwhile to learn about?
>
> 
>
> I'm guessing it is fancy marketing foo about SOAP/XML-RPC or it is about
how
> to build a website with JSP.
>
> -jon
>
> -- Forwarded Message
> From: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Ann Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Sun Headquarter Briefings: Developing Web Services
>
> Dear Developer:
>
> Judging from all the recent announcements in the industry, Web services is
> clearly the next big thing.
>
> Sun Microsystems, Inc. invites members of the development community to
> attend a one day Sun Headquarter Briefing on "Developing Web Services".
> This Briefing is scheduled for Thursday, September 6, 2001.
>
> At this briefing, developers will receive first-hand information from the
> very people who are working with this new generation of web services.
> Developers will also learn how to start developing web services today.  In
> addition, this briefing will attempt to clear the fog on web services
> development including steps in the process such as design, create,
assemble,
> publish, and deploy.
>
> For more information or to register for the Briefing, go to:
>
> http://sdc.sun.com/briefings  or call:  1.800.795.7578
>
> PLEASE NOTE:  When you register on-line, please be sure to click the check
> box on the upper left-hand of the description.
>
> See you at the Briefing!
>
> Ann Wilkins
> Sun Headquarter Briefings
> Phone:  +1-408-635-0854
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> -- End of Forwarded Message
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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