Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 9:47 Pier Fumagalli wrote: Going back and looking at the past 5 years, actually, I think that in this case, the guy from Sun actually has a point (Rudy? Who the hell is he?). Oddly enough in the J2EE/JBoss saga, I don't see Sun as being the bad guys (but ok, some of us and Mark go back A LONG time)... I concur that. The JBossGroup is playing a very tricky game, and some of what they do will reflect bad upon the entire Open Source community. Rest assured that Werner knows about these tricks since he was involved with JBoss in Europe from the beginning. I'm not a Fleury fan, neither, and his latest acts (the whitepapers, trying to lure committers into a commercial liaison with JBG) have confirmed my feelings. Still, looking at JBoss (the project), I pretty much fail to see what arguments of Rudy (the SunBE local marketing guy) would still be valid if anyone else would come and present JBoss (the project). Sun should be happy that people create cheap implementations of their APIs. If their own implementations would be any better, they might also be making money of them. ;) Cheers, /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
At 08:47 AM 5/28/2003 +0100, you wrote: On 28/5/03 0:26 Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good: http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19500 Hm... Evil: http://www.shiftat.com/blog/page/werner/20030527#sun_reaffirms_no_jboss_at Indeed... Mark Fleury _is_ evil. He has a character but evil? A bit harsh no? Pier -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider The complete log4j manual ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
At 10:08 AM 5/28/2003 +0200, you wrote: On 28/05/2003 9:47 Pier Fumagalli wrote: Going back and looking at the past 5 years, actually, I think that in this case, the guy from Sun actually has a point (Rudy? Who the hell is he?). Oddly enough in the J2EE/JBoss saga, I don't see Sun as being the bad guys (but ok, some of us and Mark go back A LONG time)... I concur that. The JBossGroup is playing a very tricky game, and some of what they do will reflect bad upon the entire Open Source community. Rest assured that Werner knows about these tricks since he was involved with JBoss in Europe from the beginning. I'm not a Fleury fan, neither, and his latest acts (the whitepapers, trying to lure committers into a commercial liaison with JBG) have confirmed my feelings. Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Do you think Sun Microsystems cares one bit about the well being of Open Source? The fact that Sun is actively trying to scuttle a successful OS project, JBoss in this case, is very disturbing. /Steven -- Ceki For log4j documentation consider The complete log4j manual ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/5/03 9:08 Steven Noels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sun should be happy that people create cheap implementations of their APIs. If their own implementations would be any better, they might also be making money of them. ;) Nothing against that, absolutely, but voices are saying that JBoss Group LLC is unwilling to pay for the compliancy tests and certification, which everyone else in the market pays... Voices also say that Sun offered them quite a substantial discount, but they didn't accept. I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 10:52 Ceki Gülcü wrote: I concur that. The JBossGroup is playing a very tricky game, and some of what they do will reflect bad upon the entire Open Source community. Rest assured that Werner knows about these tricks since he was involved with JBoss in Europe from the beginning. I'm not a Fleury fan, neither, and his latest acts (the whitepapers, trying to lure committers into a commercial liaison with JBG) have confirmed my feelings. Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. When comparing *JBossGroup* with the ASF however (if that would be possible at all), I partially understand Pier's reservations. This doesn't mean SunBE is right on this, however. The fact a (pardon me) marketing lowlife believes he can silently get away with that is once again a great occasion to help such people see the cluetrain is arriving. Do you think Sun Microsystems cares one bit about the well being of Open Source? The fact that Sun is actively trying to scuttle a successful OS project, JBoss in this case, is very disturbing. It is. And they will fail at it. Still, when daydreaming about JBoss, I happen to compare that community with ours. And I believe the testosteroid behaviour of its speaking puppet might be detrimental in the end. There's no black white and deliberation should be made. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 28/05/2003 10:52 Pier Fumagalli wrote: I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... None. Hence my problem with JBoss when comparing with the ASF situation (which isn't flawless neither, however). I still do hope JBoss - the project- can attract non-JBG LLC-funded committers. Last week at NLUUG, there was a guy with no real liaison with JBoss (http://www.josvisser.nl/), who gave a perfectly enjoyable talk on JBoss - the project. In this particular case, I feel to see how Sun would not want JBoss - the project - being presented at a (large) Java users conference. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
Don't you think JBoss' huge success has something to do with Sun's animosity? Every developer I know who has a say on the platform uses JBoss: better product, better documentation, better support, lower price. Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. When comparing *JBossGroup* with the ASF however (if that would be possible at all), I partially understand Pier's reservations. This doesn't mean SunBE is right on this, however. The fact a (pardon me) marketing lowlife believes he can silently get away with that is once again a great occasion to help such people see the cluetrain is arriving. I *would* agree if the other vendors weren't being permitted. I fail to see what compliance should have to do with it. Its a Javapolis not a J2EEpolis. Do you think Sun Microsystems cares one bit about the well being of Open Source? The fact that Sun is actively trying to scuttle a successful OS project, JBoss in this case, is very disturbing. This is the point. It is. And they will fail at it. Agreed. Still, when daydreaming about JBoss, I happen to compare that community with ours. And I believe the testosteroid behaviour of its speaking puppet might be detrimental in the end. Ha! You mean that they don¹t have enough testosterone to compete! ;-) I like Marc. He reminds me a little of someone here, but I don't think they get along so I won't say who ;-) -Andy There's no black white and deliberation should be made. /Steven -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
On 5/28/03 5:19 AM, Steven Noels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 28/05/2003 10:52 Pier Fumagalli wrote: I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... None. Hence my problem with JBoss when comparing with the ASF situation (which isn't flawless neither, however). I still do hope JBoss - the project- can attract non-JBG LLC-funded committers. Last week at NLUUG, there was a guy with no real liaison with JBoss (http://www.josvisser.nl/), who gave a perfectly enjoyable talk on JBoss - the project. In this particular case, I feel to see how Sun would not want JBoss - the project - being presented at a (large) Java users conference. That¹s not really the point. A JUG wanted, Sun used a mallet. It shouldn't be Sun's decision. -Andy /Steven -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
--- Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I fail to see what is the difference between JBoss Group LLC and any other private/public corporation developing a J2EE solution... Neither do i, provided that corporation gives you their j2ee server for free, with no strings attached; you don't have to buy their database, their hardware, their os, their services, etc... I can download and use JBoss for free. = http://nathaniel-auvil.blog-city.com/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun
Steven Noels wrote: Don't read me wrong: I'm on the JBoss-side on this, in that *the project* should be able to present itself on a JUG event. This is an interesting discussion. The New England JUG recently hosted Bill Burke, Chief Architect of JBoss Group LLC (http://www.nejug.org/2003/apr03.jsp) to talk about JBoss. With the exception of some (deservedly) proud comments evangelizing the JBoss/JMX design, Burke's talk was purely technical. The only time that the notion of JBoss Group LLC came into the picture was when someone asked if the slides would be made available online, and Burke explained that they would not, as they were directly taken from JBoss Group's instructional materials (which they sell). I'm genuinely curious where to draw the line between the project and the business in this context. Erik PS: Although I hadn't considered this until I read the posted link, I found it strange that the talk was held at an alternate location (normally NEJUG meetings are held at the nearby Burlington Sun campus). Now I can take a guess as to why. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
