RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Danny Angus]

Ceki are you sure?

>I think we definitely need a solid document countering the
> idyllic but false world depicted
> by the FSF.

I agree with comments you have made already, about the importance of licence
and legal to ASF, Jakarta, and individuals involved, but I'm still not
convinced that this(jakarta website) is the place to examine wider licence
compatibilities.

By all means have this discussion, but I think the page should be on
www.apache.org and approved by people from all projects.

Why? because it expresses an opinion, and expresses it as the opinion of
Apache as a whole, and not only of the authors of the paper, therfore it has
to actually represent the concensus of opinion. No?

d.



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Introducing Enterprise Object Broker

[Paul Hammant]

Folks,

Enterprise Object Broker (EOB) is an application server that tries to a 
be a simpler EJB container.  It is not complete yet, but we have many 
demos showing local, remote, and webapp usage.  

Take a look at http://eob.sourceforge.net/

Features:

  * Not J2EE compliant.
  * Real Java interfaces & impls (no XxxHome or XxxRemote interfaces) .
  * Does not use RMI for interoperation (no RemoteException, no 
extending rmi.Remote interface).
  - Uses AltRMI (commons-sandbox).
  * No forced choices about persistence.
  - Use files, Castor, XML, JDBC, delegated, whatever..
  * Avalon Framework methods ( IoC pattern )
  - Beans are handed a ServiceManager they use to lookup() other 
beans without have multiple
  lines of JNDI code.
  * Applications can hand a WAR file to Hendrik Schreiber's Jo! 
webserver (same VM) for web publishing.
  * Sits on top of Avalon-Phoenix.
  - Meaning it could be along side (and the beans could use) 
multiple other server components.

Supplied Examples:

  0 - Dual impl stock-quote service with ugly WAR file web-presence.
  1 - Small People & Addresses PIM. Beans in different jars, and 
potentially machines.
  2 - Small shopping cart app. Beans all in one jar.
  3 - A port of Velocity's ForumDemo app.  The obj model moved to EOB, 
Jo! handling WAR file.

For those interested in the EOB project, ignore the 0.20 release as it 
does not have the ForumDemo in it.  If you are CVS and Ant savvy, you 
should manage to build and launch the demo.

We are looking to add more demos, especially Jakarta ones.  The best 
candidates are WAR file apps with object models (hopefully 
interface/impl separated) that can be moved out of the Servlet's 
context.  These also include EJB using webapps, but the EJB side would 
have to be trimmed of the EJB 'noise' before being run in EOB.

As well as our need for more demos, we are interested in people to join 
in the main development.  Apache license of course.

Regards,

- Paul H


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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Danny Angus]

It is spelled licence.  ;-)

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:35 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?
> 
> 
> on 3/6/02 5:29 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > +1 -- I just think that needs to be prominantly linked...  I'm pretty
> > satisfied with it.
> 
> Linked and the filename changed. LicenSe.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Jeff Schnitzer]

> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> The question is: "How do you want to spend your time?"
> 
> Possible answers:
> 
> 1> Fighting an "unwinnable" (defined as the argument having a logical
> conclusion where one side overwhelmingly wins) religious war with the
> GNU hordes (hirds? hurds? ;-) ). . .
> 
> 2> Coding and documenting

There are quite a few people around here who spent an awful lot of time
working on #2 because they weren't successful at #1.  If the WebMacro
folks hadn't stuck to the GPL, it would not have been necessary to
reinvent it as Velocity.

IMHO, evangelizing the APL is an important goal of the Apache project
precisely because it reduces the amount of (re)coding and
(re)documenting we will ultimately have to do.  I applaud Jeff's
document, and I would love to see the finished version linked off the
main Jakarta page (as well as www.apache.org).

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro]

Hi Ceki,

> -Mensaje original-
> De: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: miércoles 6 de marzo de 2002 23:39
> Para: Jakarta General List

[snip]

> Asunto: Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?
> The "Working Without Copyleft" article is remarkably good. The point
> about the FSF controlling the LGPL is another very significant point:

On the contrary, I found this to be the weakest point of the article. The
LGPL states that you can choose between the present license or any later
version, so any malicious changes to it can be ignored.

Below are the relevant sections of the article and the LGPL, so you can make
your own judgement (or seek legal advice ;)

>The Free Software Foundation controls the license. They can release a
>new version of the license, which then will automatically apply to our
>software. Although we do not expect the Free Software Foundation of
>making changes that deviate from the spirit of the current versions,
>they could make clarifications that are contrary to our
>intentions. For example, they may clarify that the result of
>aspect-oriented weaving is subject to the terms of the LGPL, whereas
>we had intended that it is not. Another concern is who will be in
>charge of the Free Software Foundation 10 years from now, or what
>happens if the Free Software Foundation is discontinued? [LGPL,
>section 13]

"13. The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of
the Lesser General Public License from time to time. Such new versions will
be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to
address new problems or concerns.

Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Library
specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any
later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions
either of that version or of any later version published by the Free
Software Foundation. If the Library does not specify a license version
number, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software
Foundation."

Un saludo,

Alex.

RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Danny Angus]

>  you have the option of following the terms and conditions
> either of that version or of any later version published by the Free
> Software Foundation. If the Library does not specify a license version
> number, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software
> Foundation."

Sounds to me like a Get Rich Qwik scheme for lawyers.


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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[alex]

At 09:16 07/03/02, Danny Angus wrote:
> > It is spelled licence.  ;-)

Wow - we managed to correct Jon on a technical point!   (Just kidding Jon - 
no offence)

licenSe is what Apache Software Foundation does - ie the act of licensing.
licenCe is the document or permit given - eg the file itself.

Since this is all about the document then "licenCe" is the correct spelling 
(ignoring Case that is).

Personally I feel the existing web page which Jon reminded us of was quite 
good and if there is anything important missing then that is the page which 
should be improved.


Alex



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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Ted Husted]

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=license

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=licence


alex wrote:
> 
> At 09:16 07/03/02, Danny Angus wrote:
> > > It is spelled licence.  ;-)
> 
> Wow - we managed to correct Jon on a technical point!   (Just kidding Jon -
> no offence)
> 
> licenSe is what Apache Software Foundation does - ie the act of licensing.
> licenCe is the document or permit given - eg the file itself.
> 
> Since this is all about the document then "licenCe" is the correct spelling
> (ignoring Case that is).
> 
> Personally I feel the existing web page which Jon reminded us of was quite
> good and if there is anything important missing then that is the page which
> should be improved.
> 
> Alex
> 
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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Ceki Gulcu]

Hi Alex,

You are absolutely right. I thought I had this one nailed but
apparently not. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. Regards, Ceki

>> Asunto: Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?
>> The "Working Without Copyleft" article is remarkably good. The point
>> about the FSF controlling the LGPL is another very significant point:
>
>On the contrary, I found this to be the weakest point of the
>article. = The LGPL states that you can choose between the present
>license or any = later

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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Ceki Gulcu]

>Ceki are you sure?

>>I think we definitely need a solid document countering the
>> idyllic but false world depicted
>> by the FSF.
>
>I agree with comments you have made already, about the importance of licence
>and legal to ASF, Jakarta, and individuals involved, but I'm still not
>convinced that this(jakarta website) is the place to examine wider licence
>compatibilities.
>
>By all means have this discussion, but I think the page should be on
>www.apache.org and approved by people from all projects.
>
>Why? because it expresses an opinion, and expresses it as the opinion of
>Apache as a whole, and not only of the authors of the paper, therfore it has
>to actually represent the concensus of opinion. No?

Hi Danny,

What I am sure about is that licensing clarification efforts should be
inerted into the licence FAQ (www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html).  
Thanks for the heads up Jon.

Your point about seeking consensus first is interesting. As I
understand it, the common mechanism within Apache for doing things is
to get something out first, then seek feedback/agreement/consensus/
build some more, seek feedback on the changes, do some more, ...

My own personal experience indicates that if you first seek consesus
before acting, you are likely to never get anywhere. Regards, Ceki

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RE: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Danny Angus]

Ceki,

> My own personal experience indicates that if you first seek consesus
> before acting, you are likely to never get anywhere. Regards, Ceki

Point taken, however in this case surely some degree of peer approval needs
to be gained before people publicly express views as the views of the
project as a whole? Though perhaps this debate is approval enough, and when
I think about it perhaps there ought to be a disclaimer instead, along the
lines of "This document outlines some common arguments and opinions
expressed by some of our members, it does not necessarily represent the
opinion of the ASF the Jakarta PMC or the membership". In which case you
could probably get away with some quite extreme political statements. IMHO.
:-)



d.


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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/7/02 8:06 AM, "Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Ceki,
> 
>> My own personal experience indicates that if you first seek consesus
>> before acting, you are likely to never get anywhere. Regards, Ceki
> 
> Point taken, however in this case surely some degree of peer approval needs
> to be gained before people publicly express views as the views of the
> project as a whole? Though perhaps this debate is approval enough, and when
> I think about it perhaps there ought to be a disclaimer instead, along the
> lines of "This document outlines some common arguments and opinions
> expressed by some of our members, it does not necessarily represent the
> opinion of the ASF the Jakarta PMC or the membership". In which case you
> could probably get away with some quite extreme political statements. IMHO.
> :-)
> 

How about just publishing a pointer to the mail archive so it's clear?  :)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting

Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and talent


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Re: cvs commit: jakarta-poi/build/jakarta-poi/docs/apidocs/org/apache/poi/util - New directory

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Hi Stefano,

I totally agree, here is the problem:

I've offered to write this script provided with the relevant
server/directory information.  I've offered to help however I can to get
the POI website up, the builds and releases up, etc.

No one has taken me up on it.  Via CVS is the ONLY way modifications can
be made to our website.

To be honest, I'm kinda frustrated.  The project has been held back
because we can't get our builds published, we've only recently gotten
the site up and modifications working.  

Until we have a solution that allows us to publish information on our
website, and have our build published there is really nothing I can do
about this.  Shortly we'll even be committing a milestone build into our
CVS just to get it on our website because it is the only way we can
publish builds. 

I'm fully happy to participate in another solution, but no one has taken
me up on that up to now.  I've asked for Marc to be given access to that
server (he's our build scientist), but no one has taken me up on that.

So basically until it annoys someone enough to help us out, this is the
only thing we can do...

Sorry,

Andy


On Thu, 2002-03-07 at 07:57, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > acoliver02/03/06 18:27:54
> > 
> >   jakarta-poi/build/jakarta-poi/docs/apidocs/org/apache/poi/util - New directory
> 
> I would *strongly* suggest to avoid adding things that can be
> autogenerated (such as javadocs) in the CVS repository, the Apache CVS
> is already big enough. Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> As promised, I've written up an "ASL vs. GPL" page, for possible
> inclusion on jakarta-site2. I've more tried to capture the spirit of the
> thing from the Apache POV, than duplicate the detailed arguments in the
> O'Reilly article referenced at the end.
> 
> Please vote on whether you think the reasons outlined here are
> sufficiently representative. Constructive criticism and change
> suggestions welcome. If sufficiently approved of, I'll XMLify it and
> submit a patch.

-1, and I already pointed out my vision...

Pier


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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Marc Saegesser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would love to see a document describes the Apache Software License, the
> philosophy behind it and why we think the ASL is a good thing.  What I don't
> want is another tirade about why GPL sucks.

That's a "good thing" (TM) ,but, as well, I don't think it's the scope of
the Jakarta Project, but rather of the Foundation and of the Board to come
up with such a thing.

And the best place for this discussion is [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jon, is
that right?)

Pier


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Re: Introducing Enterprise Object Broker

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Paul Hammant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Folks,
> 
> Enterprise Object Broker (EOB) is an application server that tries to a
> be a simpler EJB container.  It is not complete yet, but we have many
> demos showing local, remote, and webapp usage.

Ok. Will we all stop using general@jakarta for advertisement of things which
are NOT ASF related? Thankyou...

Pier


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news@jakarta list? (Re: Introducing Enterprise Object Broker)

[Jeff Turner]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 06:03:21PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Paul Hammant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Folks,
> > 
> > Enterprise Object Broker (EOB) is an application server that tries to a
> > be a simpler EJB container.  It is not complete yet, but we have many
> > demos showing local, remote, and webapp usage.
> 
> Ok. Will we all stop using general@jakarta for advertisement of things which
> are NOT ASF related? Thankyou...

Then could we perhaps have a news@jakarta list for this sort of thing? A
lot of people find announcements like this relevant and interesting.

How is it different from freshmeat? It's that 'community' thing Stefano
goes on about. People have established webs of trust here. EOB is by
Apache people, using Apache code, and that makes it *relevant*.


--Jeff

> Pier
> 
> 

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Re: news@jakarta list? (Re: Introducing Enterprise Object Broker)

[dirkx]

On Fri, 8 Mar 2002, Jeff Turner wrote:

> Then could we perhaps have a news@jakarta list for this sort of thing? A
> lot of people find announcements like this relevant and interesting.

+1  as I like those messages - but general@ should be kept clean
and lean for jakarta projects and asf code mostly.

Dw


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One more time...JakartaOne

[Jon Scott Stevens]

Well, given that there is only 19 days until the 26th and given that I
haven't seen any discussion about JakartaOne other than some 'ideas' that
people keep throwing out there (and no actual committee being formed to
handle the planning and no decisions being made), it appears to me that no
one here is actually interested in planning this event so that it will
become a reality, so I guess it won't happen.

I'm not going to be the one doing all the work this time. Sorry.

p.s. The failure of this group to honestly solidify into planning JakartaOne
totally fits into my previous statements about how Jakarta is going to
implode under its own weight as the people who have been doing the brunt of
all the grunt work slowly go away...sigh...

-jon


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news@jakarta

[dirkx]

Or call it usefull-tidbits or something :-), gossip@, watercooler@,
the-bar@, coffeshop@, wathever ;-) Something clearly meant for
out of scope things.

Dw


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Re: One more time...JakartaOne

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/7/02 4:48 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well, given that there is only 19 days until the 26th and given that I
> haven't seen any discussion about JakartaOne other than some 'ideas' that
> people keep throwing out there (and no actual committee being formed to
> handle the planning and no decisions being made), it appears to me that no
> one here is actually interested in planning this event so that it will
> become a reality, so I guess it won't happen.

:/

I am going to put out a call for talks tonight or tomorrow.  James has
volunteered to help. I got bogged again in regular world again.

As for the rest, if you could give some indication of what would be
necessary for us to do - do we have to arrange for anything in the social
space such as refreshments, or is that available from StudioZ?  Any
suggestions for promotion?


> 
> I'm not going to be the one doing all the work this time. Sorry.
> 
> p.s. The failure of this group to honestly solidify into planning JakartaOne
> totally fits into my previous statements about how Jakarta is going to
> implode under its own weight as the people who have been doing the brunt of
> all the grunt work slowly go away...sigh...

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.



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Re: news@jakarta

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 3/7/02 4:48 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Or call it usefull-tidbits or something :-), gossip@, watercooler@,
> the-bar@, coffeshop@, wathever ;-) Something clearly meant for
> out of scope things.
> 

How about 'ot@'

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert


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Re: One more time...JakartaOne

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 3/7/02 1:52 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As for the rest, if you could give some indication of what would be
> necessary for us to do - do we have to arrange for anything in the social
> space such as refreshments, or is that available from StudioZ?

I need to know expected attendance...are we talking 10 people or 800 people?
We can provide the refreshments as well as help with ordering any catering
that you may need (someone...I'm sure the ASF board can be approached about
this...needs to pay for the catering though).

I also still need a timeframe for the event.

> Any suggestions for promotion?

#1. Create a xdoc which describes the event (time/date/place/activites) and
make a link to it on the jakarta homepage.
#2. Ask people to RSVP to an email address (I can volunteer to set one up)
so that we can get an approximate head count.
#3. Let me know what types of music you want, if any, and the time frame. I
can find the DJ's to work for free.

-jon


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RE: news@jakarta

[Danny Angus]

Or.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. leave those notes you're not sure if
anyone reads or not.

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:53 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: news@jakarta
>
>
> On 3/7/02 4:48 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Or call it usefull-tidbits or something :-), gossip@, watercooler@,
> > the-bar@, coffeshop@, wathever ;-) Something clearly meant for
> > out of scope things.
> >
>
> How about 'ot@'
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> System and Software Consulting
> "He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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Re: news@jakarta list? (Re: Introducing Enterprise Object Broker)

[Ted Husted]

I think the original suggestion of [EMAIL PROTECTED] was fine. 

It is not mysterious or hard to remember, and most of the OT threads
around here are generated by some type of news item. 

-Ted.


Jeff Turner wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 06:03:21PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > "Paul Hammant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > Enterprise Object Broker (EOB) is an application server that tries to a
> > > be a simpler EJB container.  It is not complete yet, but we have many
> > > demos showing local, remote, and webapp usage.
> >
> > Ok. Will we all stop using general@jakarta for advertisement of things which
> > are NOT ASF related? Thankyou...
> 
> Then could we perhaps have a news@jakarta list for this sort of thing? A
> lot of people find announcements like this relevant and interesting.
> 
> How is it different from freshmeat? It's that 'community' thing Stefano
> goes on about. People have established webs of trust here. EOB is by
> Apache people, using Apache code, and that makes it *relevant*.
> 
> --Jeff
> 
> > Pier
> >
> >
> 
> --
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-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-> Web: http://husted.com/about/services

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RE: news@jakarta

[Paulo Gaspar]

> ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...

I sure like this one!
=:o)

Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 11:28 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: news@jakarta
> 
> 
> Or.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. leave those notes you're 
> not sure if
> anyone reads or not.
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:53 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: news@jakarta
> >
> >
> > On 3/7/02 4:48 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Or call it usefull-tidbits or something :-), gossip@, watercooler@,
> > > the-bar@, coffeshop@, wathever ;-) Something clearly meant for
> > > out of scope things.
> > >
> >
> > How about 'ot@'
> >
> > --
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > System and Software Consulting
> > "He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 

>


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Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?

[Martin Cooper]

Are you referring to the noun or the verb?

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=licence*1+0

In short, "licence" is the noun, "license" is the verb.

Geez, these Americans think they speak English... ;-) ;-)

--
Martin Cooper


- Original Message -
From: "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: [VOTE] ASL vs. GPL page: is this okay?


> http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=license
>
> http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=licence
>
>
> alex wrote:
> >
> > At 09:16 07/03/02, Danny Angus wrote:
> > > > It is spelled licence.  ;-)
> >
> > Wow - we managed to correct Jon on a technical point!   (Just kidding
Jon -
> > no offence)
> >
> > licenSe is what Apache Software Foundation does - ie the act of
licensing.
> > licenCe is the document or permit given - eg the file itself.
> >
> > Since this is all about the document then "licenCe" is the correct
spelling
> > (ignoring Case that is).
> >
> > Personally I feel the existing web page which Jon reminded us of was
quite
> > good and if there is anything important missing then that is the page
which
> > should be improved.
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> > For additional commands, e-mail:

>
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