Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of the message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal judgment about it? I don't think I can be receiving all messages posted to this list. Thanks. -- CS -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 22:32:34 Christian Faulhammer wrote: Christopher Sawtell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of the message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal judgment about it? It was posted on -core, so you probably won't be able to read it. Correct. I was mystified as to why Jakub had received this treatment. During the relatively short time I have been on this list I have read almost all the postings. While some ofJakub's postings have certainly been somewhat acerbic, I do not recall any which I would classify as 'objectionable'. I just hope we are not going to get overly 'precious' about this CoC thing, which btw, I note contains the colloquial phrase 'If you screw up ...'. That sort of lazy slang language has no place in the official document set of any self-respecting organisation. Might I suggest it be replaced by something akin to 'If you discover you have made as mistake ...'. Also I noticed a simple typo: s/noone/no one/ in the previous paragraph. -- CS -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 23:42:36 Wernfried Haas wrote: On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 11:35:01PM +1200, Christopher Sawtell wrote: I just hope we are not going to get overly 'precious' about this CoC thing, which btw, I note contains the colloquial phrase 'If you screw up ...'. That sort of lazy slang language has no place in the official document set of any self-respecting organisation. Might I suggest it be replaced by something akin to 'If you discover you have made as mistake ...'. Also I noticed a simple typo: s/noone/no one/ in the previous paragraph. Thanks for the input, the council already asked us to go over it and do some rewording/a more positive approach/etc. We'll keep your suggestions in mind, too. You might find reading the Debian, and particularly, the Ubuntu Code of Conduct a worth-while execise. http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct I find it interesting that the mainstream media have also started publishing Codes of Conduct for their comment blogs. -- CS -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [GLEP] RFC - Keywording scheme
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 01:10:20 Chris Gianelloni wrote: [ ... ] Yeah, ulimit won't do it. We hit this issue with mimedefang, actually. Our problem is that the kernel is doing the limiting. We ended up having to split things up a good bit into multiple processes to get everything working. We also added another machine to the cluster to try to reduce the load on any one server at a time. Nothing we did with ulimit made a bit of difference. http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/linux-increase-the-maximum-number-of-open-files/ -- CS -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 1 (Was: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for April)
On Saturday 14 April 2007 18:14:48 Luca Barbato wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: What, you're saying they all ship with test suites that exist but don't work? anything that takes more than 10m to test is broken from an user point of view: you want the application, Indeed, but speaking as a user, one wants the application to build and work, that is after all the whole point of installing a package. not having it tested. That all depends. If having it tested means that it _will_ work, I'd be infavour of that. However I do appreciate that having every user's install repeating tests which have been done thousands of times before is probably un-neccessary. How abouot setting the _default_ for test flags to true for '~' builds and false for supposedly stable builds? [ all good stuff ] -- CS -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Why don't you just ...
On Wednesday 11 April 2007 10:56:40 Benedikt Boehm wrote: ... don't care about an uber-vision or direction and just keep your friggin packages alive and working? Indeed!! Doing an emerge --deep --update world last week b0rked updating about a couple of dozen packages. Evenutally I realized that the problem was gcc-4.1.2 had a supposedly executable file filled with zeros in its file-set. Masking gcc-4.1.2 and reverting to the 4.1.1 series has nearly got me going again.There is still one package which won't compile. OK I'm running ~x86 so I suppose I shouldn't complain, but This whole exercise, combined with the flame fests in here, has left me, a Gentoo user for many years, since version 1.2, feeling very upset and distinctly fiesty. Until the QA is a bit better I honestly feel I can't wholeheartedly recommend Gentoo anymore. I'm so sick to hear people crying that noone is around to tell them what to do.. Well I'm sick of seeing people wasting their precious time playing politics, misunderstanding eachother and flaming as a consequence. So here is my proposal: ABSTAIN! That's it for now :) Absolutely -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] *DEVELOPMENT* mail list, right?
On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 22:58:17 Jeffrey Gardner wrote: Michael Cummings wrote: So, fellow devs, what's new with development? As for me, I'm fighting with jmol-11.0, an awesome java app that relies on a lot of bundled jars. I've been able to use local versions of: ..but finding sources I can use for the following jars has been kicking my butt: Acme.jar The entire Acme package is here:- http://www.acme.com/resources/classes/Acme.tar.gz netscape.jar I couldn't find anything useful about this. vecmath1.2-1.14.jar (free version hosted by debian...it's looking better and better every day :D) # unzip -l vecmath1.2-1.14.jar The vecmath source is available from a CVS server via:- https://vecmath.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectSource The licence is https://java3d.dev.java.net/jrl.html and https://java3d.dev.java.net/jdl.html Debian version:- http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/v/vecmath1.2/vecmath1.2_1.14.orig.tar.gz http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/v/vecmath1.2/vecmath1.2_1.14-3.diff.gz -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for April
On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 00:09:12 Wernfried Haas wrote: On Thu, Apr 05, 2007 at 09:26:41AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Unfortunately, what the GLEP doesn't do is prevent the Council from having secret meetings and refusing to discuss not only the content of those meetings but even the topic. Perhaps a requirement that any Council meeting logs be made public would be useful, with a waiver that the Council can have a secret meeting if it officially announces that it is doing so? If they want to have sekrit meetings with sekrit handshakes, let them. If enough people think this is not acceptable, they'll be gone on the next election. If Gentoo goes all political and ties itself up in hundreds of rules, regulations, and miles of the proverbial red tape it will cease to be effective, and become a fork target to be effectively taken over by somebody or other with superiour people and technical skills. Don't the names Debian, Shuttleworth, and Ubuntu ring bells? -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] /{,usr/}bin path changed. What is the right solution for scripts?
On Sunday 01 April 2007, Peter Volkov wrote: Hello. Path of some utilities in coreutils-6.7-r1 changed from /usr/bin to /bin and vice versa. This cause some scripts became broken as they relied on the full path to executable. The question is: does there exist best practice on how to avoid this problem in future? Traditionally, all programs needed to boot the machine into single-user mode, together with an editor, were placed in /bin or /sbin. This allowed an administrator to do simple tasks such as simple editing of files in /etc, checking and repairing filesystems, etc.. without having any other partitions being mounted. Now-a-days it's probably all a bit moot because we have have bootable CDs and not as important as it used to be, but I am profoundly irritated when I find that when I boot to single user mode on Gentoo/Linux that I have to unmount my non-/ partitions to file check them, and then - even more irritating - have to remember to remount them in order to get a clean reboot, even worse is that vi is unavailable when you are repair mode because it is in /usr/bin. Thus one has to make do with ed. :-( Should we set some default PATH in scripts or should we call command -p program? Or as this is mainly problem for scripts that work in cron we should suggest users to set PATH in crontab? Or may be we should fix coreutils to create all possible symlinks? -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [soc] Python bindings for Paludis
On Sunday 01 April 2007, Seemant Kulleen wrote: On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 23:39 +0100, Steve Long wrote: Seemant Kulleen wrote: That's uncalled for. There's no need to get nasty. I applaud your intent, but feel it would have far more effect on the atmosphere if applied to a few of your devs, rather than users who employ milder terms? It just seems knowingly unfair, and I don't believe that is your purpose. Not getting into this. If your intent is to undermine, please do it privately. If you're just trying to be inflammatory (as you seem to be often), please put a stop to it *NOW*. Seemant: Please, please, learn a bit about British English idiom. Your gross over-reactions to both what I, and Steve Long, wrote indicate that while you have interpreted our words precisely, you have completely failed to appreciate the overall nuance of meaning in either message. Neither of which carries anything like the level of inflammatory obloquy which you seem to have deduced from them. I don't know who first uttered the phrase: We are separated by our common language. or words to that effect, but I see the effect of it in postings to this list time and time again. It's a shame. Like I've said before, just because you know how to type an email and send it, doesn't mean you *should*. Indeed! You stole my very words! A case for the thought police I do believe! You can check my posts to see me address anyone getting out of hand. Not today, thank you. For those readers who might have difficulty with this message, please rest assured that the second two paragraphs are intended to be jocular, and consult Princeton University's Wordnet system for precise meanings. -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [soc] Python bindings for Paludis
On Saturday 31 March 2007, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:13:18 +0100 Roy Marples [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:50:59 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A few years ago Gentoo had some serious advantages over the competition. These days, Gentoo is at serious risk of being Red Queened by Ubuntu and Fedora. Providing the same thing that was provided two years ago isn't enough. If Portage can't deliver functionality that makes Gentoo competitive with where Ubuntu will be a year from now, Portage has to be replaced. You seem to be under the misapprehension that Portage == Gentoo. No no, I'm saying that at present Portage is one of Gentoo's most severe limiting factors. In which case your Paludis fork of Gentoo will take off like a scalded cat, and the world will come racing to your door begging for your Mk II version of Gentoo. Go for it, the GPL ensures that you have nothing to lose. Others have done it with varying degrees of success. Kororaa and Sabayon come to mind immediatly, and I seem to remember a very early fork which foundered pretty quickly. I have been using Gentoo for many years, since the 1.2 release anyway. For me, what separates Gentoo from the others is - in order: 1) The ease of updating the file-set and installing new packages. Say what you like against it, Portage does what it was designed to do for the user very effectively. ok the tree breaks occasionally, but to err is human, and I have no difficulty accepting that fact; 2) The superb quality of the documentation. By and large, it's well written and actually understandable, and that's a rarity in this field of endeavour; 3) The IRC channels and the support fora are second to none for getting a quick answer to the current question. Without doubt, while Portage may not equate to Gentoo, it is the single feature which has branded Gentoo as being what it is. -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [soc] Python bindings for Paludis
On Saturday 31 March 2007, Seemant Kulleen wrote: On Fri, 2007-03-30 at 23:41 +0200, Danny van Dyk wrote: In which case your Paludis fork of Gentoo will take off like a Please, pretty please with sugar atop: Stop this FUD about forking Gentoo. Paludis is not a fork of Gentoo, it's new package manager. The relation between Portage and Paludis can, if at all, probably be compared to dselect vs apt. Actually, I think we're reading him differently, Danny. I read Christopher's email as saying base a fork of Gentoo, using Paludis as its package manager, and run with it. To me, he did not imply that paludis is a fork of gentoo at all. Correct, because the only way Ciaran can prove beyond doubt that his Paludis is a viable option is to see hundreds, nay millions, of people using it. I'm quite sure that he won't achieve that goal by bleating in here as frequently as he is currently. -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo infra backups
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007, Donnie Berkholz wrote: Mike Frysinger wrote: On Monday 26 March 2007, bret curtis wrote: Only wimps use tape backup: *real **men* just upload their important stuff on *ftp*, and let the rest of the world mirror it. -- LT :1996 actually, i wonder if this would be useful ... we set up a master backup server where we post raw svn/cvs/etc... stuff and then allow people to setup mirrors of it ... If we ever move to a distributed SCM, this will be solved by anyone with a checkout. It may be worth putting the time into fixing a DSCM to do what we need rather than setting up other things like this. Absolutely! I believe Monotone ( as well as many others ) would do what is wanted. * dev-util/monotone Available versions: (1) 0.29 (~)0.32 (~)0.33 Homepage:http://monotone.ca Description: Monotone Distributed Version Control System -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] unmasking packages (was Gentoo's problems)
On Tue, 27 Mar 2007, Luca Barbato wrote: Stuart Longland wrote: Portage itself, does take a long time to load its libraries. I'm yet to try Paludis (I'm one of the few MIPS devs that doesn't use it yet), but do hear good things about it. Perhaps some of the concepts used in Paludis could be applied in portage, in order to speed up performance when searching or querying? I'd advise everybody to try paludis and pkgcore to see how the alternatives are faring, I must say that I'm quite surprised by how fast they are. Please could you reassure us that they can co-exist with portage so that one can be certain that changing to either paludis or pkgcore is not irriversable? -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo infra backups
On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Tuesday 27 March 2007, Christopher Sawtell wrote: I believe Monotone ( as well as many others ) would do what is wanted. i simply cannot fully express myself at how terrible monotone is Care to suggest a different DSCM system? -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo infra backups
On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 08:45:46 +1200 Christopher Sawtell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Tuesday 27 March 2007, Christopher Sawtell wrote: I believe Monotone ( as well as many others ) would do what is wanted. i simply cannot fully express myself at how terrible monotone is Care to suggest a different DSCM system? Care to suggest why the D part is necessary or even useful? It seems like a rather extravagant and costly solution to solve one small problem... To distribute the data set around the world. -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo infra backups
On Wed, 28 Mar 2007, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:38:19 +1200 Christopher Sawtell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Care to suggest a different DSCM system? Care to suggest why the D part is necessary or even useful? It seems like a rather extravagant and costly solution to solve one small problem... To distribute the data set around the world. There are plenty of ways of doing that, most of which don't involve the huge cost of having to use a horrible version control system... I wonder if you would be so kind as to expand on the meaning of your use of cost and horrible in the above sentence? -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion: INVALID - NOCHANGE in bugzilla
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007, Jakub Moc wrote: Kevin F. Quinn napsal(a): [snip] See, I don't really care how the reporter feels, if something's not a bug, then it's not a bug. In which case it must be a feature, so why not use the keyword FEATURE? Don't invent confusing 'politically correct' junk for this just because someone might feel 'offended'. I think that insufficient people in the open source and free software movements realize that in the real world there are differing cultures all of whom have differing sensitivities to language constructs. imnsho it's very important not to cause deliberate offense, because doing so perpetuates the idea that FOSS movement people are an unpleasant bunch of individuals. This causes users to make the choice of using computer products from elsewhere, and developers to spend their free time doing other things. -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Cultural Differences (was: Suggestion: INVALID - NOCHANGE in bugzilla)
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007, Mike Kelly wrote: On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 02:21:46 +0200 Alin NÄstac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christopher Sawtell wrote: In which case it must be a feature, so why not use the keyword FEATURE? Why would we need a keyword for that? We already have enhancement as a possible value of the severity field. I think he was making a joke there (along the lines of the saying, It's not a bug, it's a feature!). He was, but at the same time he was testing the water ( more idiom ) to see what would happen. He would also like to point out that Many a true word is spoken in jest is a true proverb. He thinks, and hopes, that it applies in this context, and would still like to see INVALID replaced by FEATURE. Is going to make a fuss about it? No, he is not. It's not that important. Sadly, this just goes to show how people need to be more careful in their wording in a community like ours with people coming from so many different cultures. Or maybe people need to lighten up a bit more, I don't really know which. A bit of both I suspect. Anyone have any further suggestions how we as a community can avoid this sorta confusion from in-jokes, idioms, etc? All of us who are native English speakers need to remember that folks who learnt English at school often just don't 'get it' when it comes to English jokes. Similarly what passes for a harmless joke, or phrase, in one English speaking society can be really offensive in another. Also one of the intrinsic cultures of people who live to the East of a hazy line drawn more or less along the Rhine and Danube rivers is that when they are talking to each other on a day-to-day basis they are very honest and frank with each other. Those of us who are used to layers of nuance find the direct transliteration of very clear phrases difficult to understand emotionally. It seems to be happening very often now-a-days (or maybe I'm just paying more attention than I used to). I suspect both. -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote: What I personally think out of all this situation is nice propaganda for Gentoo, which we could somehow exploit in 'our benefit'. Anyone with ideas on how to promote our distribution even with that kind of propaganda? If nothing else, it does prove that the development community is vibrant, active, and as a whole does not tolerate the bickering which has been the downfall of many other development groups. On 3/20/07, Philip Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 070319 Michael Krelin wrote: someone wrote : Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo on the right I mistook seriously as relating to the rest of your letter Your name suggests you're not a native speaker. It's a common trick of stand-up comedians to introduce their next joke with But seriously, folks ... (smile). -- Ioannis Aslanidis deathwing00[at]gentoo.org 0xB9B11F4E -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: My turn to wear the cursed medalion of retirement
TBH I think all that was needed was saying that the pre-existing rules apply to all on the dev m-l, and actually *enforcing* those rules for devs. Devrel is clearly not set up for that, so I support the new dev-mods (sorry proctors is a silly name imnsho as only Americans get it. I understand from a US buddy that a proctor is someone who gives you an aural examination cf viva. I /really/ dislike that connotation.) quote source='The Oxford English Dictionary' Proctor. ... b. In modern use, as at Oxford and Cambridge, each of two officers appointed annually to discharge various functions in connexion with the meetings of the University and its various Boards, the examinations and conferment of degrees, and the like; they are also charged with the discipline of all persons 'in statu pupillari', and the summary punishment of minor offences. /quote Seems to me that the use of the word 'proctor' is particularly apposite. This absolutely ridiculous outburst of pseudo-legalistic onanism would have been avoided entirely if everybody using the lists had taken the Golden Rule Do unto others as you would have them do unto you to heart. For e-mail lists the other rule is simply Don't feed the trolls. Viewing of Google Tech talk How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 is recommended. Let's just get over it. -- CS -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
