Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
On Monday 30 January 2006 07:41, Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote:
> Another example of such issues is when i installed laptop-mode
> tools for the first time: it messed my acpid configuration, because
> it was adding in /etc/acpi/{events,actions}.d some handlers for
> things i had already configured differently in my own scripts.
>
> That's that kind of situation i would like to avoid when there are
> simple ways to do it, and not any file installation to /etc.
I have similar gripes with logrotate.d. Most files in there are the ones I
made myself. Specifically I have a different setup for the syslog files.
In a different file. Everytime I merge a package I need to remove it
again.
A similar issue is with cron.{hourly,daily,weekly,monthly}. One might not
want to run updatedb every day, but every week. Moving the file
accomplishes that until an update puts the file in again. Only making a
fake file "fixes" that.
Paul
--
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:15:57 +0100 Thomas de Grenier de Latour <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | It would be interesting to know how that happened for in the past | for /etc/bash_completion.d, which made a similar move iirc Have you any idea how slow bash is if you use all the completion files for every app with completion support? -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote: > It would be interesting to know how that happened for in the past > for /etc/bash_completion.d, which made a similar move iirc Yes, it would. > (although real files went to /usr/share/something, whereas here i > would rather see them in etc because they are more likely to be > customized). Can add anywhere to CONFIG_PROTECT ... Thanks, Donnie signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:51:29 -0800
Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And any other "new" file in /etc you also want a USE flag
> introduced for? Sounds real scalable. Or is this just an
> exception from the rule?
Sure it's an exception. I make the difference beetween:
- usual /etc/ files: when they are new, they don't get used before
you start the service or whatever they are owned by. People know
that they should configure things before using them, and that's no
issue. And when they are not new, the changes get CONFIG_PROTECTed,
so there is no issue
- files in some /etc/something.d/: no issue when not new neither,
sure. But when they are new, they affect the existing configuration
of an already in use service with zero protection. It's exactly
like if a pkg_postinst function was doing some "cat new_chunk >>
/etc/something", which i sure you agree would be bad.
Another example of such issues is when i installed laptop-mode
tools for the first time: it messed my acpid configuration, because
it was adding in /etc/acpi/{events,actions}.d some handlers for
things i had already configured differently in my own scripts.
That's that kind of situation i would like to avoid when there are
simple ways to do it, and not any file installation to /etc.
--
TGL
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:51:25 -0800 Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote: > > Or again another one (a bit ugly imho tho): merge the files in > > an "/etc/logrotate.d.dist" directory, and add an eselect module > > to handle symlinks from "/etc/logrotate.d". > > What's ugly about this? I like it. > What i fear could be a bit ugly is transition of existing systems from the current setup (logrotate.d/files) to the eselect setup (logrotate.d/symlinks -> logrotate.d.dist/files). I don't really see how to automate that since it would require being able to make distinction beetween packages' files and users' files (to move the first ones but not the second ones), and i don't really like the idea to do that kind of nasty tricks in some pkg_*inst function or alike. That, and also the fast transition on ebuilds side would somehow need to happen all at the same time so that no ebuild continue to put real files in logrotate.d once a system is on an select setup. It would be interesting to know how that happened for in the past for /etc/bash_completion.d, which made a similar move iirc (although real files went to /usr/share/something, whereas here i would rather see them in etc because they are more likely to be customized). -- TGL -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:58:52 -0800 > Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> You want people to recompile the whole package to get another >> text file installed? > > When would one recompile a package just for that? Only case i can > think of is when someone who already has setup his apache / ftp / > database / whatever server suddenly discover what "logrotate" is > and thus decide to start using it, whereas until then he didn't > payed any attention to the flag each time it was listed by "emerge > -pv". That sounds rather unlikely, and i would say "too bad, be > more careful next time..." to such a sysadmin. Oh, that's really friendly. Too bad, so sad, you just have to spend 10 hours recompiling all your logrotate-using packages. > And anyway, this > user doesn't really have to recompile anything to fix his mistake: > he can still have a look on the ebuild to see that if the file he > is missing is available in $FILESDIR, or use "ebuild unpack" and > get it from the sources tree when it comes from upstream. I don't expect users to know ebuild syntax to install a package. That's a terrible assumption to make. If it's something in filesdir and you really insist on a USE flag, my preference would be that it's a separate package pulled in by a USE flag instead of requiring a recompilation. >> People who don't want it can set INSTALL_MASK. It should be >> installed by default and not switchable with a USE flag. > > USE flag is the only way to indicate that a package has logrotate > support, and that's important. Remember that files added to an > /etc/something.d/ directory are chunks of configuration merged > with the user's one. First time they are installed, they are just > like bypassing the etc-update protection. > I remember that, maybe 2 years ago, syslog-ng suddenly started to > install a logrotate.d file, with no USE flag. Sure i didn't > noticed it, until i saw that what i had already configured by hand > in a different file was not working has expected anymore. Ok, > that's just logs rotation, it doesn't hurt that much, but still, i > would have prefer it to be introduced along with a USE flag, so > that i can notice the change and decide whether i accept it and > adapt my configuration. And any other "new" file in /etc you also want a USE flag introduced for? Sounds real scalable. Or is this just an exception from the rule? Thanks, Donnie signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote: > Or again another one (a bit ugly imho tho): merge the files in an > "/etc/logrotate.d.dist" directory, and add an eselect module to > handle symlinks from "/etc/logrotate.d". What's ugly about this? I like it. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, Jan 29, 2006 at 07:46:30AM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > We already had this discussion. It's not that it's another file, it's > that it's another file in /etc, which is backed up and requires > administrator attention on every upgrade. Packages shouldn't stick > stuff in /etc on a whim. If you are saying that things should not be put in /etc by a package automatically for optional features, I agree with you there, and that is why I support the "logrotate" and "xinetd" use flags. William -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFD3SHrblQW9DDEZTgRAiGuAKCoHMY5glKY3Fdaev7cAbOLtSYuxACgtvNP pMJHIUa6gnkYYuayh8tnEZ4= =5d0V -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Thomas de Grenier de Latour wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:58:52 -0800 > Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> You want people to recompile the whole package to get another >> text file installed? > > When would one recompile a package just for that? Only case i can > think of is when someone who already has setup his apache / ftp / > database / whatever server suddenly discover what "logrotate" is > and thus decide to start using it, whereas until then he didn't > payed any attention to the flag each time it was listed by "emerge > -pv". That sounds rather unlikely, and i would say "too bad, be > more careful next time..." to such a sysadmin. And anyway, this > user doesn't really have to recompile anything to fix his mistake: > he can still have a look on the ebuild to see that if the file he > is missing is available in $FILESDIR, or use "ebuild unpack" and > get it from the sources tree when it comes from upstream. > [snip] indeed, rephrasing what sayd before in the same thread: Mysql eclass will add a USE flag, local or global, "logrotate" for next versions of MySQL, not touching the old ebuilds. Run-time needed files will still live in $PORTDIR/dev-db/mysql/files, because their size is small, and they change seldom. Compile time needed files have been already moved in a separate SRC_URI fetched file. Unless we decide to drop totally "logrotate" use flag support. BTW hope this is not enough fuel to start another flamewar. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:07:15 +0100 Thomas de Grenier de Latour <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i would not appreciate to see it suddenly handling a new service > because a xinet.d file has been silently added by a new version > of an ebuild. Ok, i see all files i have installed in that dir have disable=yes, so they don't really hurt. Sorry about that, i should have check. That makes me think of a similar solution for logrotate if the USE flag must really go: merge only some completly commented files. This way you give control back to the user, while still helping him in his logrotate configuration. Or again another one (a bit ugly imho tho): merge the files in an "/etc/logrotate.d.dist" directory, and add an eselect module to handle symlinks from "/etc/logrotate.d". -- TGL -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:58:52 -0800 Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You want people to recompile the whole package to get another > text file installed? When would one recompile a package just for that? Only case i can think of is when someone who already has setup his apache / ftp / database / whatever server suddenly discover what "logrotate" is and thus decide to start using it, whereas until then he didn't payed any attention to the flag each time it was listed by "emerge -pv". That sounds rather unlikely, and i would say "too bad, be more careful next time..." to such a sysadmin. And anyway, this user doesn't really have to recompile anything to fix his mistake: he can still have a look on the ebuild to see that if the file he is missing is available in $FILESDIR, or use "ebuild unpack" and get it from the sources tree when it comes from upstream. So no, i don't really see what the problem is here. (Sure, introducing the flag in an ebuild when doing a bump doesn't count as a "recompilation to get logrotate", since that's an update that the user will do anyway.) > People who don't want it can set INSTALL_MASK. It should be > installed by default and not switchable with a USE flag. USE flag is the only way to indicate that a package has logrotate support, and that's important. Remember that files added to an /etc/something.d/ directory are chunks of configuration merged with the user's one. First time they are installed, they are just like bypassing the etc-update protection. I remember that, maybe 2 years ago, syslog-ng suddenly started to install a logrotate.d file, with no USE flag. Sure i didn't noticed it, until i saw that what i had already configured by hand in a different file was not working has expected anymore. Ok, that's just logs rotation, it doesn't hurt that much, but still, i would have prefer it to be introduced along with a USE flag, so that i can notice the change and decide whether i accept it and adapt my configuration. INSTALL_MASK is not of any help against that: how does one know what to mask before it's too late? I use logrotate, i have the flag turned one, and i just can't mask the whole directory, because files i want files that i know are installed there (and want their updates). But next time a package gets added unconditional logrotate support (or i install one which already has it), it may randomly screw my own config again. As for xinetd, i don't use it so i don't really care, but i guess the same arguments could be used: if i was using it, i know i would not appreciate to see it suddenly handling a new service because a xinet.d file has been silently added by a new version of an ebuild. So, really, i currently see the USE flag as the only way to give users control over their /etc/something.d configurations. Or there should be a new config protection mechanism in portage to avoid auto-merge of some of the config files (something similar to CONFIG_PROTECT, like merging them as ._new0001_foobar when they don't exist yet, but with a different paths list, limited to /etc/*.d/ directories). But that's a different story... -- TGL. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Marcelo Góes wrote: > >If INSTALL_MASK is the correct way to prevent logrotate stuff from >being installed, then those 8 ebuilds I mentioned earlier should drop >the USE flag and install it by default. That's probably easier to fix, >too. > > This cannot be done for squid, because this useflag selects the rotation method: logrotate or the native method (through a cron job). While it is easy to filter logrotate files through INSTALL_MASK, it isn't so for /etc/cron.* files. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:58:52 -0800 Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | Marcelo Góes wrote: | > Indeed, logrotate functionality should be optional. Ebuilds that | > install logrotate stuff without asking should be updated to use the | > logrotate USE flag. | > | > I'm making it a global USE flag if nobody complains. | | You want people to recompile the whole package to get another text | file installed? | | People who don't want it can set INSTALL_MASK. It should be installed | by default and not switchable with a USE flag. We already had this discussion. It's not that it's another file, it's that it's another file in /etc, which is backed up and requires administrator attention on every upgrade. Packages shouldn't stick stuff in /etc on a whim. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (King of all Londinium) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Reposting since I don't think my last e-mail got through... On 1/29/06, Donnie Berkholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > People who don't want it can set INSTALL_MASK. It should be installed by > default and not switchable with a USE flag. If INSTALL_MASK is the correct way to prevent logrotate stuff from being installed, then those 8 ebuilds I mentioned earlier should drop the USE flag and install it by default. That's probably easier to fix, too. Regardless of how one controls whether logrotate stuff is installed or not, we should make it one way only. Each package doing its own thing is confusing. While at it, we might want to mention it in our documentation, too (cron-guide.xml and/or hb-install-tools.xml perhaps?). I don't remember reading anything about this, and neither does grep/Google. Marcelo -- Marcelo Góes [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Marcelo Góes wrote: > It seems there are some ebuilds with a logrotate USE flag: > Perhaps it should be a global USE flag? We have discussed this "fairly recently"[1] so I'll post the link to save everyone the hassle. [1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=gentoo-dev&w=2&r=1&s=logrotate&q=b > > Marcelo > > -- > Marcelo Góes > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Marcelo Góes wrote: Indeed, logrotate functionality should be optional. Ebuilds that install logrotate stuff without asking should be updated to use the logrotate USE flag. I'm making it a global USE flag if nobody complains. You want people to recompile the whole package to get another text file installed? People who don't want it can set INSTALL_MASK. It should be installed by default and not switchable with a USE flag. Thanks, Donnie -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
On 1/28/06, Francesco Riosa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Doug Goldstein wrote: > > How about the packages that don't even ask and just install logrotate > > stuff? Like Apache, lighttpd, and mysql? > > > > they should use it, MySQL will be updated when Marcelo make "logrotate" > uf global Indeed, logrotate functionality should be optional. Ebuilds that install logrotate stuff without asking should be updated to use the logrotate USE flag. I'm making it a global USE flag if nobody complains. -- Marcelo Góes [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Doug Goldstein wrote: > Marcelo Góes wrote: >> It seems there are some ebuilds with a logrotate USE flag: >> >> use.local.desc:34:app-backup/bacula:logrotate - Install support files >> for logrotate >> use.local.desc:550:mail-filter/dspam:logrotate - Install support files >> for logrotate >> use.local.desc:899:net-ftp/vsftpd:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating logs >> use.local.desc:1011:net-misc/ntp:logrotate - Install support files for >> logrotate >> use.local.desc:1079:net-proxy/squid:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating >> logs >> use.local.desc:1284:sys-power/acpid:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating >> logs >> use.local.desc:1290:sys-power/hibernate-script:logrotate - Use >> logrotate for rotating logs >> use.local.desc:1303:www-apps/dspam-web:logrotate - Build logrotate >> support for dspam >> >> Perhaps it should be a global USE flag? >> >> Marcelo >> >> -- >> Marcelo Góes >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > How about the packages that don't even ask and just install logrotate > stuff? Like Apache, lighttpd, and mysql? > they should use it, MySQL will be updated when Marcelo make "logrotate" uf global -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
Marcelo Góes wrote: > It seems there are some ebuilds with a logrotate USE flag: > > use.local.desc:34:app-backup/bacula:logrotate - Install support files > for logrotate > use.local.desc:550:mail-filter/dspam:logrotate - Install support files > for logrotate > use.local.desc:899:net-ftp/vsftpd:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating logs > use.local.desc:1011:net-misc/ntp:logrotate - Install support files for > logrotate > use.local.desc:1079:net-proxy/squid:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating > logs > use.local.desc:1284:sys-power/acpid:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating > logs > use.local.desc:1290:sys-power/hibernate-script:logrotate - Use > logrotate for rotating logs > use.local.desc:1303:www-apps/dspam-web:logrotate - Build logrotate > support for dspam > > Perhaps it should be a global USE flag? > > Marcelo > > -- > Marcelo Góes > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > How about the packages that don't even ask and just install logrotate stuff? Like Apache, lighttpd, and mysql? -- Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://dev.gentoo.org/~cardoe/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-dev] Make logrotate a global USE flag?
It seems there are some ebuilds with a logrotate USE flag: use.local.desc:34:app-backup/bacula:logrotate - Install support files for logrotate use.local.desc:550:mail-filter/dspam:logrotate - Install support files for logrotate use.local.desc:899:net-ftp/vsftpd:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating logs use.local.desc:1011:net-misc/ntp:logrotate - Install support files for logrotate use.local.desc:1079:net-proxy/squid:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating logs use.local.desc:1284:sys-power/acpid:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating logs use.local.desc:1290:sys-power/hibernate-script:logrotate - Use logrotate for rotating logs use.local.desc:1303:www-apps/dspam-web:logrotate - Build logrotate support for dspam Perhaps it should be a global USE flag? Marcelo -- Marcelo Góes [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
