Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item for udev 197-r3 upgrade (yes, I know, it's late)

2013-01-24 Thread Michael Weber
On 01/24/2013 02:45 AM, »Q« wrote:
 On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:49:09 -0800
 Christopher Head ch...@chead.ca wrote:
 
 On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 17:03:15 +0100
 Michael Weber x...@gentoo.org wrote:
 udev/openrc stopped re-mounting /dev that last year.

 Are you sure? I have CONFIG_DEVTMPFS_MOUNT disabled, latest stable
 udev (197-r3) and openrc (0.11.8), and no /dev line in my fstab, yet
 my /dev is still a devtmpfs with a proper set of device nodes.
 
 Me too.  It looks like /etc/init.d/udev-mount mounts it if the kernel
 hasn't, but I'd like to know more about whatever best practice is.

Mind the _re_-mount,
if udev discovers /dev not being mounted, udev does.
if udev discovers /dev mounted, no mount action is taken.
Earlier versions remounted /dev regardless.

My best practice is to have CONFIG_DEVTMPFS_MOUNT enabled:
I don't use initrd (except for disk encryption) and
I still find my disks during init=/bin/bash recovery.

and it does not hurt, anymore.

-- 
Michael Weber
Gentoo Developer
web: https://xmw.de/
mailto: Michael Weber x...@gentoo.org



[gentoo-dev] Re: news item for udev 197-r3 upgrade (yes, I know, it's late)

2013-01-23 Thread »Q«
On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:49:09 -0800
Christopher Head ch...@chead.ca wrote:

 On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 17:03:15 +0100
 Michael Weber x...@gentoo.org wrote:
 
  On 01/23/2013 04:04 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:  
   System seems to work fine, so I'm not sure how essential that line
   is. The fact that I'm using an initramfs might also have an
   effect.  
  
  I'd strongly suggest using CONFIG_DEVTMPFS_MOUNT=y.
  and stop worring about udev/openrc.
  
  udev/openrc stopped re-mounting /dev that last year.

 Are you sure? I have CONFIG_DEVTMPFS_MOUNT disabled, latest stable
 udev (197-r3) and openrc (0.11.8), and no /dev line in my fstab, yet
 my /dev is still a devtmpfs with a proper set of device nodes.

Me too.  It looks like /etc/init.d/udev-mount mounts it if the kernel
hasn't, but I'd like to know more about whatever best practice is.




[gentoo-dev] Re: news item for udev 197-r3 upgrade (yes, I know, it's late)

2013-01-23 Thread Duncan
Samuli Suominen posted on Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:04:19 +0200 as excerpted:

 On 23/01/13 21:06, Felix Kuperjans wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Felix Kuperjans
 fe...@desaster-games.com wrote:
 Samuli Suominen wrote:
 please review this news item

 /dev/root is no longer available in this udev version

 I suggest including in the news item, that /dev/root must be replaced
 with the actual root device or LABEL=..., UUID=... and the like in
 /etc/fstab.

 Well, *if* a line with /dev/root is present in /etc/fstab, the system
 does not boot up properly (tested it right now).
 I always though such a line in /etc/fstab is needed so that fsck is run
 on the root filesystem...

 Removing the line completely boots up fine, but the filesystem has not
 been fscked on boot.
 
 I don't think we ever instructed users for adding such line... if we
 did, I'll eat my words.
 So, I don't think it's necessary to instruct them away from it either,
 never seen such fstab line.

Well technically, we used (and still use, see below) the uppercase 
/dev/ROOT, with instructions documenting what to replace it with.  But 
some users apparently simply lowercased that ROOT, and for years it just 
worked. (Below output edited slightly for posting. $ indicates the 
shell prompt.):

$equery b fstab
 * Searching for fstab ... 
sys-apps/baselayout-2.2 (/usr/share/baselayout/fstab)

$grep -i /dev/root /usr/share/baselayout/fstab
/dev/ROOT   /ext3 noatime 0 1

$

[TLDR folks can stop there.  The rest is historic observation, arguably 
interesting, admittedly ranty, but not vital.]

Years ago (remember, my first successful gentoo install was 2004.1), the 
fstab example file found in /usr/share/baselayout/fstab was packaged as 
/etc/fstab directly.  Now, the handbook of the era took great pains to 
guide people thru editing it appropriately, saying the ALLCAPS entries 
were intended to be replaced as appropriate for the individual install, 
AND people were expected to actually use etc-update or the like for its 
intended purpose, so people weren't /supposed/ to have it simply 
overwritten.

Unfortunately, a lot of folks (sarcasm yes, gentooers, could you 
believe it? /sarcasm) couldn't read instructions properly, and I'd say 
gentoo-user averaged at least two threads a month from folks who had 
killed their fstab with an update and a simple etc-update direct-replace, 
or couldn't get gentoo self-booting in the first place due to not editing 
the file at all, despite the instructions to do so.

And I'm sure many more read the threads on the list and in the forums, 
and didn't make a mistake they otherwise would have...  I know I 
certainly did.  I've said before that I was actively helping people on 
the lists well before I got my own gentoo system up and running.  (Turned 
out there was a bug in at least amd64's 2004.0 handling of the then still 
new NPTL, that I ran into somewhere along the way.  I don't know what the 
fix was, but 2004.1 installed just fine from stage-1, so it must have 
been fixed...  As a result, I was active on the lists for several months 
before I actually got my own install working, by which time I knew the 
documentation pretty well, given the help I was giving to others based on 
it the whole time.)


Some of us were actually rather sad to see the file moved to /usr/share, 
since with it working as it did, gentoo newbies tended to learn to 
actually pay attention to the instructions reasonably early on, after 
being pointed to them.  As I've said before, it was well known and 
frequently posted in the user lists back then that gentoo wasn't a 
handholding distribution.  Gentooers, as sysadmins of their own systems, 
were expected to take responsibility for them, reading instructions, 
etc.  If they preferred not to or couldn't learn to do so after a couple 
mistakes like that, well, there were (and are still) other distributions 
more suited to them, and in all seriousness, not to put people down but 
simply to recommend a distro that would be a better fit for them, it 
wasn't rare at all to see a recommendation that people seriously assess 
whether they wanted to take on that responsibility, and if not, they 
really should be on a different distro, as gentoo definitely wasn't for 
them!


So a /dev/ROOT entry was and actually still is part of the default fstab, 
it's just that the baselayout package places that fstab elsewhere, these 
days.

Evidently, some users saw the example and simply lowercased that 
/dev/ROOT entry into /dev/root, despite the handbook specifically 
recommending replacing it with the appropriate /dev/[sh]daX parameter, 
and because of the kernel/devfs/udev entry for that, it just worked.

Now that long stale entry is beginning to cause issues.


Meanwhile, if we still shipped /etc/fstab directly, as back then, I 
expect we'd have way less troubles with people not paying attention to 
instructions and trying to foist their responsibilities as sysadmin 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item for udev 197-r3 upgrade (yes, I know, it's late)

2013-01-23 Thread Dale
Duncan wrote:
 Samuli Suominen posted on Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:04:19 +0200 as excerpted:

  On 23/01/13 21:06, Felix Kuperjans wrote:
  On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Felix Kuperjans
  fe...@desaster-games.com wrote:
  Samuli Suominen wrote:
  please review this news item
 
  /dev/root is no longer available in this udev version
 
  I suggest including in the news item, that /dev/root must be replaced
  with the actual root device or LABEL=..., UUID=... and the like in
  /etc/fstab.
 
  Well, *if* a line with /dev/root is present in /etc/fstab, the system
  does not boot up properly (tested it right now).
  I always though such a line in /etc/fstab is needed so that fsck is run
  on the root filesystem...
 
  Removing the line completely boots up fine, but the filesystem has not
  been fscked on boot.
  
  I don't think we ever instructed users for adding such line... if we
  did, I'll eat my words.
  So, I don't think it's necessary to instruct them away from it either,
  never seen such fstab line.
 Well technically, we used (and still use, see below) the uppercase 
 /dev/ROOT, with instructions documenting what to replace it with.  But 
 some users apparently simply lowercased that ROOT, and for years it just 
 worked. (Below output edited slightly for posting. $ indicates the 
 shell prompt.):

 $equery b fstab
  * Searching for fstab ... 
 sys-apps/baselayout-2.2 (/usr/share/baselayout/fstab)

 $grep -i /dev/root /usr/share/baselayout/fstab
 /dev/ROOT   /ext3 noatime 0 1

 $

 [TLDR folks can stop there.  The rest is historic observation, arguably 
 interesting, admittedly ranty, but not vital.]

 Years ago (remember, my first successful gentoo install was 2004.1), the 
 fstab example file found in /usr/share/baselayout/fstab was packaged as 
 /etc/fstab directly.  Now, the handbook of the era took great pains to 
 guide people thru editing it appropriately, saying the ALLCAPS entries 
 were intended to be replaced as appropriate for the individual install, 
 AND people were expected to actually use etc-update or the like for its 
 intended purpose, so people weren't /supposed/ to have it simply 
 overwritten.


I started using Gentoo in the 1.4 days.  I to changed /dev/ROOT to
/dev/root and added the proper locations/options for root and every
other mount point I have.  This is the first I have heard of fstab not
needing the root mount line.  If this is a change, someone needs to tell
the users, even us old timers.  ;-)

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how 
you interpreted my words!