Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: virtual/{posix,stage1,2,3} Was: Add bc back to the stage3

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 1:25 AM, Steven J. Long
sl...@rathaus.eclipse.co.uk wrote:
 Not arguing with your use-case. Just wondering why ed and bc are considered
 such major burdens, but polkit+systemd+udev+dbug+glib+glibc+godknows are a
 minimal base.

Nobody is talking about adding most of that stuff to the @system set.

The issue is that in general we're trying to reduce @system and list
explicit dependencies.  Honestly, my personal preference would be to
ditch it altogether as an implicit set of dependencies.

I'm all for having virtuals or profiles that make it easy for users to
install commonly-used sets of packages, including convenience ones
that reflect particular configurations.

The whole idea of dependencies, however, is that we don't have to have
endless debates about whether dbus is or isn't a great package to
install by default.  Instead, people just install the packages they
want, and they get the baggage that necessarily comes along with it.

So, this isn't about keeping ed/bc out while we have openssh of all
things in.  The concern is more about not adding more to something
that feels more like a hack at this point, and finding a better way of
letting users easily have sane defaults.  In the end, it is actually
about choice.  If done right it should actually make it easier for you
to have a system free of udev+glibc (I don't think the rest of what
you put there is part of the system set today).

--
Rich

[gentoo-dev] Re: virtual/{posix,stage1,2,3} Was: Add bc back to the stage3

[Steven J. Long]

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 09:22:18PM +, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
 On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 12:31:16PM -0400, Richard Yao wrote:
  May I suggest an alternative? We could implement sys-virtual/posix and
  make it depend on all packages that are not necessary for @system, but
  are necessary for proper POSIX compliance. Then we can tell users who
  need/want an environment containing all tools specified by POSIX, such
  as those not using sys-kernel/*-sources, to `emerge virtual/posix`.

kernel-sources doesn't get you that afaict: it just gets you bc. Certainly
doesn't get you ed, which is tiny and designed to be used in rootfs.

I just don't see the point in not providing a POSIX.2 system by default.
It feels like crippling the distro before it's out the door.

 I like this idea, for a virtual/posix; would let us trim a lot of other
 things from some environments.

Such as?

Not arguing with your use-case. Just wondering why ed and bc are considered
such major burdens, but polkit+systemd+udev+dbug+glib+glibc+godknows are a
minimal base.

I feel like I've gone through the looking-glass. (pam pulling in polkit?)

Anyhow, it seems to that in the minimal embedded env you're talking about,
the user can quite easily remove or package.provide things, and that
can be done in the profile as well as myriad other options for the expert
use-case; none of which speak to the default.

We used to have LDAP enabled by default, for the best part of a decade
to my recollection, just so that people could plug a disk into a Windows
environment, on the grounds that this made us look more professional.
With respect, nothing looks more amateurish than a *nix that doesn't even
comply with POSIX.2.

It's not exactly hard, yet we don't manage it, but meantime let's add in
massively complex layers. It seems very masochistic sometimes, from an
external perspective. Loads of extra work, discussion and what often
reads like heartache, for want of a better word, in order to achieve what
you could have done really simply.

Still, moar code must be better, right?

-- 
#friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)