Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) hk...@gentoo.org wrote: Don't you get that? the janitor gets hit by a car and no ones around to clean the bathrooms. You can't fire him because of contract, his job has to be waiting for him when he gets back in 2 months. what do you do? the answer is you get someone else to do it. If you had really been prepared you already had 2 or more janitors. the answer is not to fire people, but not to be as reliant on single points of failure. if you make it more than 1 persons job then when 1 person can't do it there's another there to pick up the slack, who's just as competent. -- Caleb Cushing http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
Le 07/03/2009 09:10, Caleb Cushing a écrit : If you had really been prepared you already had 2 or more janitors. While I really appreciate you comparing us to janitors, ... the answer is not to fire people, but not to be as reliant on single points of failure. if you make it more than 1 persons job then when 1 person can't do it there's another there to pick up the slack, who's just as competent. ... I would say you're both right and wrong on that point. I happen to believe we've been pretty good at reducing our global bus factor. There's more communication between teams and a lot of devs belong to multiple teams. We could do better, sure, but we're much better than a year or two ago. And to close off, I'll say a few things about your attitude back in bug 260582. #1 : I closed that bug because we already know about bumps. Polluting our bug list with stuff we're _already_ working on is both useless for you and annoying for us. #2 : One of the point of the X11 overlay is to literally shove stuff that is too broken/untested to hit portage. So by all means, nothing in this overlay is supported (in the traditional Gentoo sense). #3 : When we feel xorg 1.6 is ready for portage, we'll just push it there. By the time we go back to bugzilla to close the bug, you'll already know about it. #4 : I work on Gentoo because I like it and I do take the responsibility very seriously. I don't need you or anyone else to tell me that I need to do my job. That's just condescending and downright rude. So, I'll leave this bug open because I definitely don't want to start a flamewar over this, but do know that you've red-flagged yourself. I do hope though we can go all go back to fixing bugs and making Gentoo better. Cheers Rémi
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Rémi Cardona r...@gentoo.org wrote: While I really appreciate you comparing us to janitors, ... it's an analogy, get over it. I could have called you a secretary or a school teacher, or bus driver, or basically any other job where a replacement has to be found if the regular can't be around. maybe I should have called it 'custodial services expert' or some other 3 word title. So, I'll leave this bug open because I definitely don't want to start a flamewar over this, but do know that you've red-flagged yourself. thank you for that. I'm glad to know you've taken this personally. it means I really hit home. -- Caleb Cushing http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
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Caleb Cushing wrote:
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
hk...@gentoo.org wrote:
Don't you get that?
the janitor gets hit by a car and no ones around to clean the
bathrooms. You can't fire him because of contract, his job has to be
waiting for him when he gets back in 2 months. what do you do?
We make do. That means that someone else might drop (some of) their tasks to
step in. In the end, less total work will get done.
the answer is you get someone else to do it.
Aha, so this is what the community service project is gonna do after they chase
away their volunteers! They hire professionals instead. Good thing they are
never short on cash. Fortunately we have a never-ending supply of Gentoo-credits
and they are just as good as real money. We can even give all current developers
a 10% raise while we're spending money anyway.
Marijn
- --
Sarcasm puts the iron in irony, cynicism the steel.
Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
I've found that git's patches aren't really what we want in the case of bumping. For bug reports we usually ask for a patch against the last ebuild in the tree. Is there perhaps a way to make git do that automatically? well, git has copy detection, you can tell if a file is merely a copy of the previous (if git format-patch is done right) you can also just do a diff on it? you could probably put it in a hook. or write a script... or numerous other ways. once the work is done, getting any amount of varying diffs is easy. the problem with git right now, is all the things that gentoo does for cvs and rsync. git doesn't need as much manifesting, it doesn't need the cvs headers, or ChangeLog files, all this stuff just clutters things with git. but this is a 'right now' problem, that I'm working to solve, most of it leads right back to manifests. It's great that people are doing their own thing, but to get it into OUR tree it will need to be comitted to OUR tree by someone who has access to OUR tree. Patches are great, but commits are better. yes but your commit process is made more complicated by your tools. I for the most part require that the entire commit be ready to go. Your demands because of your feelings of entitlement are what are costing you respect. why do people keep telling me what I feel? anyone else ever notice feelings don't convey well over text. Yes, it's extremely frowned upon to step on another developers toes; Gentoo is not a one-man show. Would you like ME to stomp all over your tree? Didn't think so. that depends on what you mean by 'stomp' if by stomp you mean fix problems for users, stomp away. if by stomp you mean break stuff, then no. I don't care if you change something I changed if it's better, it's better. Just so we're clear. I really hope you change your attitude and take Peter Alfredsen (loki_val) up on his generous offer. and my attitude is? what is it that you think I think? I may take him up. but I'm also considering the possible conflict of interest, as well as the additional time requirement. I hope you understand. even if I do I have a commitment to what I've already started. -- Caleb Cushing http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
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Caleb Cushing wrote:
Your demands because of your feelings of entitlement are what are costing you
respect.
why do people keep telling me what I feel? anyone else ever notice
feelings don't convey well over text.
Well, you spoke of owing users, and the right to open a bug and watch for
progress reports combined with this:
right now you are the kind of person that thinks being a volunteer is a
privilege and not a responsibility. You think that because you don't get paid
that you don't have to do it. I assure you that if you look at most non foss
volunteer jobs you either have to do your job or quit. it is the same in open
source. perhaps I'm judging you wrongly. --
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260582#c6
It seems like you want to tell us how to do our jobs. It seems like you think
you have the right to tell us what to do. Now, I'm happy to be wrong about those
views, but that's what it looks like to me.
Yes, it's extremely frowned upon to step on another developers toes; Gentoo
is
not a one-man show. Would you like ME to stomp all over your tree? Didn't
think so.
that depends on what you mean by 'stomp' if by stomp you mean fix
problems for users, stomp away. if by stomp you mean break stuff, then
no. I don't care if you change something I changed if it's better,
it's better.
The point is that you don't know whether someone else has a good judgement of
better. People that have been taking care of certain parts of the tree may just
know something you don't. This is why we encourage people to talk to maintainers
when they touch their packages but also encourage maintainers not to feel too
possessive.
Just so we're clear. I really hope you change your attitude and take Peter
Alfredsen (loki_val) up on his generous offer.
and my attitude is? what is it that you think I think?
I've answered that above.
I may take him up. but I'm also considering the possible conflict of
interest, as well as the additional time requirement. I hope you
understand. even if I do I have a commitment to what I've already
started.
On your blog[1] you imply that if you decide to not, that you wouldn't be able
to to talk to people to understand something. I just want to stress that this
is not so. Many of us are available on #gentoo-dev-help and this mailing list
for technical questions.
Marijn
[1]:http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com/2009/03/to-gentoo-dev-or-not-to-gentoo-dev.html
- --
Sarcasm puts the iron in irony, cynicism the steel.
Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) hk...@gentoo.org wrote: right now you are the kind of person that thinks being a volunteer is a privilege and not a responsibility. You think that because you don't get paid that you don't have to do it. I assure you that if you look at most non foss volunteer jobs you either have to do your job or quit. it is the same in open source. perhaps I'm judging you wrongly. -- https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260582#c6 It seems like you want to tell us how to do our jobs. It seems like you think you have the right to tell us what to do. Now, I'm happy to be wrong about those views, but that's what it looks like to me. and what's your perspective? who gets to tell you what to do? it's not that I get to. but what I said I do believe, is common among foss developers. they don't take volunteering as a responsibility. They don't think of it as their other job. I think they should. It's also a pet peeve of mine so I kinda flew off the handle. question is do you understand what I've written? given your statement below on my blogpost on what you think I've implied (I'll respond directly) you might be wrong about this to. this is also the reason that I have to carefully consider being a gentoo dev. if I do, I have a responsibility to the users of my packages. The point is that you don't know whether someone else has a good judgement of better. People that have been taking care of certain parts of the tree may just know something you don't. This is why we encourage people to talk to maintainers when they touch their packages but also encourage maintainers not to feel too possessive. sometimes it's just a difference of opinion. it depends on your opinion of what's right and what's better. but sometimes even the smartest person is wrong. I do not claim to be always right, and I'm most certainly not. but I don't think I'm wrong when I say it's wrong not to version bump a package when all it takes is the copy of a previous ebuild. I don't think I'm wrong when a bug is put on hold due to other bugs, (for 6+ months) but the maintainer never answers what other bugs. On your blog[1] you imply that if you decide to not, that you wouldn't be able to to talk to people to understand something. I just want to stress that this is not so. Many of us are available on #gentoo-dev-help and this mailing list for technical questions. no that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that it's easier to get help if you got 1 or more specific mentor's to help you. asking for help on irc, forums, mailing lists, is often a crap shoot at best. given I get help more often than not. but sometimes you still don't get any (for various reasons, don't know, don't care, not around, don't understand). You read an implication that I didn't actually say. -- Caleb Cushing http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
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Caleb Cushing wrote:
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
hk...@gentoo.org wrote:
right now you are the kind of person that thinks being a volunteer is a
privilege and not a responsibility. You think that because you don't get paid
that you don't have to do it. I assure you that if you look at most non foss
volunteer jobs you either have to do your job or quit. it is the same in open
source. perhaps I'm judging you wrongly. --
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260582#c6
It seems like you want to tell us how to do our jobs. It seems like you think
you have the right to tell us what to do. Now, I'm happy to be wrong about
those
views, but that's what it looks like to me.
and what's your perspective? who gets to tell you what to do? it's not
that I get to. but what I said I do believe, is common among foss
developers. they don't take volunteering as a responsibility. They
don't think of it as their other job. I think they should. It's also a
pet peeve of mine so I kinda flew off the handle.
Why do you think they should?
question is do you understand what I've written? given your statement
below on my blogpost on what you think I've implied (I'll respond
directly) you might be wrong about this to.
this is also the reason that I have to carefully consider being a
gentoo dev. if I do, I have a responsibility to the users of my
packages.
The point is that you don't know whether someone else has a good judgement of
better. People that have been taking care of certain parts of the tree may
just
know something you don't. This is why we encourage people to talk to
maintainers
when they touch their packages but also encourage maintainers not to feel too
possessive.
sometimes it's just a difference of opinion. it depends on your
opinion of what's right and what's better. but sometimes even the
smartest person is wrong. I do not claim to be always right, and I'm
most certainly not.
but I don't think I'm wrong when I say it's wrong not to version bump
a package when all it takes is the copy of a previous ebuild. I don't
think I'm wrong when a bug is put on hold due to other bugs, (for 6+
months) but the maintainer never answers what other bugs.
No, you are not wrong, but it does not follow that the people who are already
investing time towards similar issues are slackers. It's a manpower issue. Even
trivial bumps have to be tested and bugzilla is there such that it can help each
developer work more efficiently.
On your blog[1] you imply that if you decide to not, that you wouldn't be
able
to to talk to people to understand something. I just want to stress that
this
is not so. Many of us are available on #gentoo-dev-help and this mailing list
for technical questions.
no that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that it's easier to
get help if you got 1 or more specific mentor's to help you. asking
for help on irc, forums, mailing lists, is often a crap shoot at best.
given I get help more often than not. but sometimes you still don't
get any (for various reasons, don't know, don't care, not around,
don't understand). You read an implication that I didn't actually say.
I just wanted to make my point. It isn't really material whether you implied
what I said you did or not.
Marijn
- --
Sarcasm puts the iron in irony, cynicism the steel.
Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) hk...@gentoo.org wrote: Why do you think they should? you must have not read what I said on that bugtracker because I'm thought I was pretty clear, that when you work as a volunteer it's still a job. Don't believe me, go volunteer for community service or something. Then try saying I don't have to I'm a volunteer. They might just ask you to leave on that note. -- Caleb Cushing http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
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Caleb Cushing wrote:
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst)
hk...@gentoo.org wrote:
Why do you think they should?
you must have not read what I said on that bugtracker because I'm
thought I was pretty clear, that when you work as a volunteer it's
still a job. Don't believe me, go volunteer for community service or
something. Then try saying I don't have to I'm a volunteer. They might
just ask you to leave on that note.
You don't even know how much time these people spend on Gentoo. If you make them
leave it will stretch the other developers more and decrease the number of
manhours spent on Gentoo. In what universe is this useful? It certainly won't
get xorg-server bumped faster or ghc or some java packages. Don't you get that?
Marijn
- --
Sarcasm puts the iron in irony, cynicism the steel.
Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/, #gentoo-{lisp,ml} on FreeNode
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Caleb Cushing wrote: Bugzilla is a tool for developers to track progress, not for third-party distributions to track progress. You've forked the tree. That's fine. The license allows that. But it doesn't obligate us to adapt our tools to fit your purpose. I've done lots of version bump bugs over the years. my reasons for doing so may have changed. But the general process has not. Does it matter if I've forked? doesn't the package still need an update? I think a lot (most?) of us agree that bugs shouldn't be closed until fixes hit the main tree. But it indeed does not matter that you've forked, so you shouldn't even have brought it up on the bug report. Bugs aren't a good way to keep in touch with developers, that's what irc is for. Your behavior on bug 260582 was clearly unacceptable. You seem to think that we owe you something. Please re-examine your premises. Donnie already told you he was working on it. Our job is not to support your distribution. It is to make the best distro for ourselves. In the case of xorg-server, that means getting something into the tree that works. A masked ebuild will in this case be more bother than it's worth because the mask would have to encompass a bunch of other packages. Which leads me on to the next paragraph... this and all the cases given are examples, and perhaps my behavior was unacceptable. But I think the response to my bug was too. No gentoo doesn't owe me or regen2, a thing. It might, however, owe users something. I agree on committing ebuilds that work, that doesn't mean I don't have the right to open a bug and watch for progress reports. No, you don't have that right. It's just how it usually works and how it should work IMO, but that doesn't entitle you to it. In many cases that's true, but on average, the QA of the tree is much better than overlays. I couldn't say... I suppose I agree yes on most overlays, but a few are supposed to be more 'exceptional'. the biggest problem is the bugs that result between ebuilds in the tree and those of overlays. like one I filed on virtual/perl-Mime-Base64. or like how inkscape won't build against 5.10, except with patches already in bugzilla, but both cases seemed to be one of 'perl 5.10 isn't in the tree so we won't fix' I think they should put it in before 5.10 is in the tree. put that's just me. And they probably will, but as perl-5.10 isn't in the tree, there is no rush. Either way, it's the perl team's decision to go with the patch in bugzilla or some other option and when they do it, whether they make that decision consciously or are forced into it due to real life time-constraints. We Need Git. It would really ease the workflow of accepting user contributions if users could just set up their own overlay and sent me an email asking to merge their changesets. git's great. but I've actually found 'merging' changesets to be a bad idea from people. It can lead to some really sloppy commits, and merging is a less stringent review than cherry-picking patches. I've found that git's patches aren't really what we want in the case of bumping. For bug reports we usually ask for a patch against the last ebuild in the tree. Is there perhaps a way to make git do that automatically? You could have made thousands of commits already, fixing a substantial amount of the problems you've raised. thousands seem like a high number. I think I've been pushing an average one 1 patch per day since january to the tree (my tree). *laughing* I'm still the #1 contributor of git patches to funtoo. It's great that people are doing their own thing, but to get it into OUR tree it will need to be comitted to OUR tree by someone who has access to OUR tree. Patches are great, but commits are better. This isn't a quick fix. You'll have to work with people and that can sometimes be frustrating. I already have to 'work' with these people, the difference would be what? how much respect I get? in gentoo land having @gentoo.org seems to mean something... if you don't have that, you seem to auto-magically get less respect, than you would if you did have it. Your demands because of your feelings of entitlement are what are costing you respect. But you'll get to be part of the development process and you'll get to work with the things you care about. you mean I'll be part of 'a' development process and work on some of the things I care about. Obviously stepping on other developers toes seems to be a taboo. Yes, it's extremely frowned upon to step on another developers toes; Gentoo is not a one-man show. Would you like ME to stomp all over your tree? Didn't think so. Just so we're clear. I really hope you change your attitude and take Peter Alfredsen (loki_val) up on his generous offer. Marijn - -- Sarcasm puts the iron in irony, cynicism the steel. Marijn Schouten (hkBst), Gentoo Lisp project, Gentoo ML
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
Caleb Cushing wrote: I'd like to start with, I'm not trying to stir up trouble but since questions were asked i'll answer them. If you think neither should exist why do you have an opinion about this at all? I merged the java-overlay into regen2 a couple of weeks ago. as of right now I've no plans to support java-experimental. Please don't. Until less than a month ago, it was a qa nightmare ( even java-overlay was). Im sure both overlays probably still have unresolvable dependencies. And yes they are an example of piss poor qa standards. Even now im sure there is stuff in java-overlay that is be just plain broken. I would hate to think about what java-experimental is like.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
Bugzilla is a tool for developers to track progress, not for third-party distributions to track progress. You've forked the tree. That's fine. The license allows that. But it doesn't obligate us to adapt our tools to fit your purpose. I've done lots of version bump bugs over the years. my reasons for doing so may have changed. But the general process has not. Does it matter if I've forked? doesn't the package still need an update? Your behavior on bug 260582 was clearly unacceptable. You seem to think that we owe you something. Please re-examine your premises. Donnie already told you he was working on it. Our job is not to support your distribution. It is to make the best distro for ourselves. In the case of xorg-server, that means getting something into the tree that works. A masked ebuild will in this case be more bother than it's worth because the mask would have to encompass a bunch of other packages. Which leads me on to the next paragraph... this and all the cases given are examples, and perhaps my behavior was unacceptable. But I think the response to my bug was too. No gentoo doesn't owe me or regen2, a thing. It might, however, owe users something. I agree on committing ebuilds that work, that doesn't mean I don't have the right to open a bug and watch for progress reports. In many cases that's true, but on average, the QA of the tree is much better than overlays. I couldn't say... I suppose I agree yes on most overlays, but a few are supposed to be more 'exceptional'. the biggest problem is the bugs that result between ebuilds in the tree and those of overlays. like one I filed on virtual/perl-Mime-Base64. or like how inkscape won't build against 5.10, except with patches already in bugzilla, but both cases seemed to be one of 'perl 5.10 isn't in the tree so we won't fix' I think they should put it in before 5.10 is in the tree. put that's just me. We Need Git. It would really ease the workflow of accepting user contributions if users could just set up their own overlay and sent me an email asking to merge their changesets. git's great. but I've actually found 'merging' changesets to be a bad idea from people. It can lead to some really sloppy commits, and merging is a less stringent review than cherry-picking patches. You could have made thousands of commits already, fixing a substantial amount of the problems you've raised. thousands seem like a high number. I think I've been pushing an average one 1 patch per day since january to the tree (my tree). *laughing* I'm still the #1 contributor of git patches to funtoo. This isn't a quick fix. You'll have to work with people and that can sometimes be frustrating. I already have to 'work' with these people, the difference would be what? how much respect I get? in gentoo land having @gentoo.org seems to mean something... if you don't have that, you seem to auto-magically get less respect, than you would if you did have it. But you'll get to be part of the development process and you'll get to work with the things you care about. you mean I'll be part of 'a' development process and work on some of the things I care about. Obviously stepping on other developers toes seems to be a taboo. -- Caleb Cushing http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Thomas Anderson gentoofa...@gentoo.org wrote: eh, that's the problem with ~arch. ~amd64 keywords aren't added for every new version; keywords are carried over from the previous version. Having to test each new version of a package before it receiving a keyword puts far too much stress on the arch teams I'm not talking about testing before... I was talking about removing it after. I understand that not everything can always be tested before. But when it's found to be broken, there shouldn't have been an argument about the kewords removal in lieu of a proper fix. -- Caleb Cushing http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Caleb Cushing wrote: I'd like to start with, I'm not trying to stir up trouble but since questions were asked i'll answer them. If you think neither should exist why do you have an opinion about this at all? I merged the java-overlay into regen2 a couple of weeks ago. as of right now I've no plans to support java-experimental. I'm fine with overlays so long as working ebuilds spend no more than a few weeks in them. I have my own development branch and half the stuff that's in there that isn't in the main tree doesn't work. Things like perl 5.10 have been rotting in an overlay for a year. Funtoo ( under my direction ) and Regen2 have had it ~arch for over a month now. We found one bug post release thus far. I filed a bug on xorg-server 1.6.0 not being in tree. It was resolved fixed (in overlay) (which another bug clearly states it has amd64 build issues). since when has (in overlay) been an acceptable solution to a missing package? I said it before, the reason I like gentoo* distro's is I don't have to find the repository to get the latest package, that's just a pain, in ubuntu, in opensuse, in fedora... etc. But no more... officially supported huge overlays have ruined this. The single tree model is not the only one, nor necessarily the best one. I understand your concern, but as ciaranm argued in another thread, the issues many people seem to have with overlays are caused by the current level of support by Portage. What we need is better support for multiple repositories, not to drop them. As it has been discussed before, multiple repositories could even foster the development in Gentoo, instead of halting it down - as quite a few people seem to be affraid of. If we can have some repositories focusing in certain areas or relaxing access rules to a few repos, some devs might get more focused and some packages might find new maintainers and or their way into mainline Gentoo. One issue that has been raised is about having testing ebuilds in overlays instead of the tree. In a few cases, we have ebuilds in overlays, not because of the lack of QA of the ebuilds, but because of the experimental nature of the packages or because of the difficulty in making packages comply to Gentoo rules. One example of a package that was never in the tree, but instead on an overlay was XGL. It was never considered to be stable enough to get into the tree. KDE-4 work started in overlays and was kept there until 4.0 because it was more flexible to work in the overlay than it would have been to do it in the tree. By the way, KDE-4 is a good example of how work in overlays can help the tree - what we had for 4.0 and have now in the tree was mostly done by people that weren't Gentoo devs. Work in these overlays has lead to an injection of many new devs. ... users don't know how to hack. the very definition of user says that, imo. There are developers, admins, and users. admins don't want overlays, they are supposed to be unstable. users can't hack, so what do they care. the problem is, an overlay has become a repo, I'm not sure that it was originally intended for that. Fortunately, Gentoo users are not like some other distributions users. I've seen many Gentoo users working in ebuilds and quite a few working with devs to improve the Gentoo tree. Most admins don't like unstable packages. Unfortunately quite a few of them have to support new (testing) packages whether they like them or not. ... Further, overlays are good places to put ebuilds for software that is more experimental than what's expected for ~arch. That includes live ebuilds. In the end, overlays have a (far) lower level of guaranteed quality than the main tree, for their ebuilds because ~arch is supposed to work? take open bug on wine-1.1.16 it doesn't build on amd64 and yet it's ~amd64. how about that nam ebuild that has invalid bash that I mentioned? that's some quality work there. The point is the tree is no better or worse than the overlays in many cases. If anything, I've been hearing lately complaints about the testing branch having become the new stable branch, not that it's terribly broken. ... I've probably already offended a large share of people on this list, now lets see if I can offend a few more by soliciting. I think you'll find a reasonable tolerance level in this ml about technical issues and development models. - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / SPARC / KDE -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmvJroACgkQcAWygvVEyAJtEwCfYNY1EuJ4/ZEKOGBtKDX7VtOm mtYAniAof1AWL5GMVtpbpZ1g6LCKf7GS =i3Gl -END PGP SIGNATURE-
[gentoo-dev] Regen2 ( was QA Overlay Layout support )
I'd like to start with, I'm not trying to stir up trouble but since questions were asked i'll answer them. If you think neither should exist why do you have an opinion about this at all? I merged the java-overlay into regen2 a couple of weeks ago. as of right now I've no plans to support java-experimental. I'm fine with overlays so long as working ebuilds spend no more than a few weeks in them. I have my own development branch and half the stuff that's in there that isn't in the main tree doesn't work. Things like perl 5.10 have been rotting in an overlay for a year. Funtoo ( under my direction ) and Regen2 have had it ~arch for over a month now. We found one bug post release thus far. I filed a bug on xorg-server 1.6.0 not being in tree. It was resolved fixed (in overlay) (which another bug clearly states it has amd64 build issues). since when has (in overlay) been an acceptable solution to a missing package? I said it before, the reason I like gentoo* distro's is I don't have to find the repository to get the latest package, that's just a pain, in ubuntu, in opensuse, in fedora... etc. But no more... officially supported huge overlays have ruined this. on the topic of sunrise, I approve of sunrise to a degree. I like the non-reviewed half, but once they're reviewed they should be put in tree. Isn't it true that some of those packages never get maintainers? What makes you think that overlays aren't for developers, aspiring developers and interested users where they are working on stuff? users don't know how to hack. the very definition of user says that, imo. There are developers, admins, and users. admins don't want overlays, they are supposed to be unstable. users can't hack, so what do they care. the problem is, an overlay has become a repo, I'm not sure that it was originally intended for that. It is desirable IMO that all such people can easily be given full access to muck around and learn. this does not mean officially supported overlays. You obviously won't commit just anything to an officially supported overlay which suggests that you don't allow 'mucking around'. Further, overlays are good places to put ebuilds for software that is more experimental than what's expected for ~arch. That includes live ebuilds. In the end, overlays have a (far) lower level of guaranteed quality than the main tree, for their ebuilds because ~arch is supposed to work? take open bug on wine-1.1.16 it doesn't build on amd64 and yet it's ~amd64. how about that nam ebuild that has invalid bash that I mentioned? that's some quality work there. The point is the tree is no better or worse than the overlays in many cases. might even argue that Funtoo is one big overlay. When your own ability to contribute directly depends on an overlay, then why are you arguing against other people's overlays? perhaps this is the real problem gentoo's primary way to accept user contributions is via overlays. I disagree with the calling of Funtoo as one big overlay, it's a replacement tree, and it provides everything needed within that tree, as does regen2. overlays however rely on an external tree, and now you've been discussing making them rely on other overlays. Please point me to the people willing and having the time to maintain those 100 new ebuilds in the main tree. given all the problems with the in tree ebuilds that aren't properly maintained, I see no difference. Regen2, is attempting to fix these problems, and more. I do try to get my fixes back upstream here, but more often than not the bug languishes. I don't think Gentoo is bad, but I do think it's taken a wrong turn. But I suppose that these things are problems are simply my opinion. I've probably already offended a large share of people on this list, now lets see if I can offend a few more by soliciting. I consider Regen2 ready for use, but pre-release since I have yet to roll ISO's and tarballs. Anyone who wants to help is welcome, be you current, former or aspiring developer. More info at http://regen2.org I will not discuss regen2 further on this list as I feel this is not really the place, but I was asked. I am willing to discuss overlays further, but I'm not sure I really have more to say. I suppose the last thing would be back in the day I got everything from the tree, if I wanted, needed something else I downloaded an individual ebuild, and put it in /my/ local overlay. I didn't download a bunch of incomplete mini-trees using a tool. -- Caleb Cushing http://xenoterracide.blogspot.com
