Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 09:08 +0300, Samuli Suominen wrote: > On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700 > Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down. > > Thanks. I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't > > remember what it was off the top of my head. Luckily, this won't be > > much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce > > rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to > > produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD. Of course, the > > LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now. > > Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd? Never. If you want stages, get the LiveDVD. > Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so. Well, I would likely be keeping Evolution, since AD/Exchange capabilities are something I consider pretty important for anyone in a corporate world. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Sat, 2007-08-04 at 04:31 +, Luis Medinas wrote: > Of course you don't need to build all gnome for the livecd and i bet Umm... yes, we do. Remember that an offline install requires the packages to exist on the LiveCD. If we did only half of GNOME, nobody could install GNOME. The problem is that packages keep growing in size, so we have to reduce the number of packages every release to keep up with the growing space requirements. This is starting to become impossible while still maintaining the package set on the CD. Honestly, I was even considering switching to fluxbox on the CD so we could include more useful packages. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote: Le samedi 04 août 2007 à 16:23 -0500, Andrew Gaffney a écrit : The LiveCD is intended to replace the separate GRP and universal CDs when combined with the installer. The installer uses the packages installed on the CD to do the new install. I'm not sure how many times this has been brought up on this list. You people need to pay attention ;) err, sorry I'm here since 9th june only. I should have check the archives :) I guess I'll let it slide this time, then :) -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Le samedi 04 août 2007 à 16:23 -0500, Andrew Gaffney a écrit : > The LiveCD is intended to replace the separate GRP and universal CDs when > combined with the installer. The installer uses the packages installed on the > CD > to do the new install. I'm not sure how many times this has been brought up > on > this list. You people need to pay attention ;) > err, sorry I'm here since 9th june only. I should have check the archives :) -- Gilles Dartiguelongue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gentoo signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote: Le samedi 04 août 2007 à 09:08 +0300, Samuli Suominen a écrit : On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700 Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down. Thanks. I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't remember what it was off the top of my head. Luckily, this won't be much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD. Of course, the LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now. Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd? Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so. why would you need a mailer at all on a livecd ? Is the livecd intended to provide a full desktop experience whichever desktop is chosen or is it just provided as a way to have something to do while you are installing and/or tools to fix your install ? if it's not intended to be a full desktop experience (garnome does it very well for gnome afaik) then you could install only gnome-light for a start. The LiveCD is intended to replace the separate GRP and universal CDs when combined with the installer. The installer uses the packages installed on the CD to do the new install. I'm not sure how many times this has been brought up on this list. You people need to pay attention ;) -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Samuli Suominen wrote: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700 Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down. Thanks. I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't remember what it was off the top of my head. Luckily, this won't be much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD. Of course, the LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now. Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd? Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so. The saved space (~105MB with my test build right after 2007.0) would only allow for one stage tarball (the i686 2007.0 stage3 was 103MB, for example), and then we'd be right back where we were with keeping the ISO under 700MB. -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Luis Medinas wrote: On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:28 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote: Thanks. I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't remember what it was off the top of my head. Luckily, this won't be much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD. Of course, the LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now. Sad to know that our livecd will be xfce based. I think the current live cd gnome based provides a much better environment than xfce and that is good for the users who will preform and instalation. Of course you don't need to build all gnome for the livecd and i bet there will be enough space for another tools (a graphical package manager!?). The main reason that releng has decided to replace gnome with xfce for the LiveCD is space. We (Kugelfang, wolf31o2, and I) had a hell of a time this last release getting the x86/amd64 LiveCDs under 700MB, mostly because many packages (including gnome) grew a bit since the last release. With no differences other than s:gnome-base/gnome:xfce-base/xfce4:, the resulting ISO dropped ~105MB. That's a *lot* of breathing room and a *lot* less headaches for the people building the media. Unless you can magically pull some space out of your butt, don't complain :P -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Le samedi 04 août 2007 à 09:08 +0300, Samuli Suominen a écrit : > On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700 > Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down. > > Thanks. I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't > > remember what it was off the top of my head. Luckily, this won't be > > much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce > > rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to > > produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD. Of course, the > > LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now. > > Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd? > Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so. why would you need a mailer at all on a livecd ? Is the livecd intended to provide a full desktop experience whichever desktop is chosen or is it just provided as a way to have something to do while you are installing and/or tools to fix your install ? if it's not intended to be a full desktop experience (garnome does it very well for gnome afaik) then you could install only gnome-light for a start. -- Gilles Dartiguelongue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gentoo signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:28:26 -0700 Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down. > Thanks. I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't > remember what it was off the top of my head. Luckily, this won't be > much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce > rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to > produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD. Of course, the > LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now. Glad to hear that. Then maybe we could add some stages to livecd? Replace evolution with something usable like claws-mail to do so. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:28 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > Thanks. I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't > remember what it was off the top of my head. Luckily, this won't be > much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce > rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to > produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD. Of course, the LiveDVD > will have everything on it, as it does now. > Sad to know that our livecd will be xfce based. I think the current live cd gnome based provides a much better environment than xfce and that is good for the users who will preform and instalation. Of course you don't need to build all gnome for the livecd and i bet there will be enough space for another tools (a graphical package manager!?). -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 16:18 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 23:39 +0100, Roy Marples wrote: > > Pretty please for ext4 for the ricers that just *have* to try it and > > need to recover their systems. It's a good ask as it is *in* the kernel > > even if marked experimental. > > I don't even know what ext4 needs, but if someone files a bug, I'll add > it to the specs. Otherwise, I'll forget. Just the kernel modules and sys-fs/e2fsprogs-1.4 or better :) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 23:39 +0100, Roy Marples wrote: > On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:28 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > Of course, the LiveDVD > > will have everything on it, as it does now. > > > > Pretty please for ext4 for the ricers that just *have* to try it and > need to recover their systems. It's a good ask as it is *in* the kernel > even if marked experimental. I don't even know what ext4 needs, but if someone files a bug, I'll add it to the specs. Otherwise, I'll forget. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:28 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > Of course, the LiveDVD > will have everything on it, as it does now. Pretty please for ext4 for the ricers that just *have* to try it and need to recover their systems. It's a good ask as it is *in* the kernel even if marked experimental. Thanks Roy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 14:56 -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote: > Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 18:53 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote: > >> Chris Gianelloni wrote: > >>> On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote: > +ppds (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it > without further investigations. cups is already in) > +startup-notification > >>> Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there > >>> is a *very* good reason. I really don't have a problem with any of > >>> these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers. > >> I am very strongly in support of ppds, as I consider it critical for us > >> to make printers easier to set up. > > > > This one should be on, actually. It was enabled for 2006.1 but somehow > > got turned back off for 2007.0's release. > > We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down. Thanks. I knew there had to be some reason for it, but couldn't remember what it was off the top of my head. Luckily, this won't be much of an issue with the next release, since we're switching to Xfce rather than GNOME to bring the size down even further and to try to produce a more useful (as in more tools) LiveCD. Of course, the LiveDVD will have everything on it, as it does now. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 18:53 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote: Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote: +ppds (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it without further investigations. cups is already in) +startup-notification Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there is a *very* good reason. I really don't have a problem with any of these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers. I am very strongly in support of ppds, as I consider it critical for us to make printers easier to set up. This one should be on, actually. It was enabled for 2006.1 but somehow got turned back off for 2007.0's release. We disabled it to try to get the size of the x86/amd64 LiveCDs down. -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Chris Gianelloni kirjoitti: > > One thing to remember, I do *not* consider our desktop profiles to be > "opt-in" but rather to be a good out-of-box experience for the user. If > you want to think of the desktop profiles as bloated, feel free to use > the versioned profile (like 2007.0) instead, as it will be much closer > to the opt-in idea and only has USE flags which are common between > desktops and servers and are much less likely to get additional flags > added to them, since I want these to be as minimal as possible while > still providing important functionality. > That sounds good to me. It's easy enough to turn off use flags too. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Fri, 2007-08-03 at 09:09 +0200, Rémi Cardona wrote: > Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote: > >> +startup-notification > > Actually, rereading that list, I wouldn't mind adding this one. Gnome > and a couple of core Gnome apps hard-depend on it, as I am must sure > must be the case in KDE. > > Samuli also told me that xcfe4 really needed it anyway. I guess this is > one where most people would easily agree on adding it to the desktop > profile. I've added ppds and startup-notification to the default USE for the newly-created x86 development profiles for 2007.1, which I'd ask people to base any change requests on, rather than the 2007.0 profiles. Basically, if it isn't in the 2007.1 profile and you want it, ask for it on gentoo-releng. If we think we need more discussion on a particular USE flag, we'll bring it back here. One thing to remember, I do *not* consider our desktop profiles to be "opt-in" but rather to be a good out-of-box experience for the user. If you want to think of the desktop profiles as bloated, feel free to use the versioned profile (like 2007.0) instead, as it will be much closer to the opt-in idea and only has USE flags which are common between desktops and servers and are much less likely to get additional flags added to them, since I want these to be as minimal as possible while still providing important functionality. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 18:53 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote: > Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote: > >> +ppds (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it > >> without further investigations. cups is already in) > >> +startup-notification > > > > Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there > > is a *very* good reason. I really don't have a problem with any of > > these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers. > > I am very strongly in support of ppds, as I consider it critical for us > to make printers easier to set up. This one should be on, actually. It was enabled for 2006.1 but somehow got turned back off for 2007.0's release. I'll make sure it is enabled on the 2007.1 release on the desktop profiles. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Chris Gianelloni wrote: > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote: >> +startup-notification Actually, rereading that list, I wouldn't mind adding this one. Gnome and a couple of core Gnome apps hard-depend on it, as I am must sure must be the case in KDE. Samuli also told me that xcfe4 really needed it anyway. I guess this is one where most people would easily agree on adding it to the desktop profile. Cheers, Rémi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Chris Gianelloni wrote: > On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote: >> +ppds (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it >> without further investigations. cups is already in) >> +startup-notification > > Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there > is a *very* good reason. I really don't have a problem with any of > these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers. I am very strongly in support of ppds, as I consider it critical for us to make printers easier to set up. Thanks, Donnie signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Thu, 2007-08-02 at 11:27 +0200, Martin Schwier wrote: > So, these are my proposed changes for the default desktop profile: > > +bash-completion > +bluetooth > +ffmpeg(totem isn't much without it) > +libnotify (gives very nice popup notifications in many programs instead > of an annoying, workflow interrupting dialog box with an OK button) > +ppds (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it > without further investigations. cups is already in) > +startup-notification Well, we don't add local USE flags to the default profiles unless there is a *very* good reason. I really don't have a problem with any of these being added, but I'd rather hear the opinions of my peers. Also, if these *were* to get added, they wouldn't be added to the 2007.0 profiles and would wait for 2007.1's profiles, which we should be starting up some time soon. I usually ask for these sorts of suggestions over on the gentoo-releng mailing list near the beginning of our release cycle. > -fortran (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up > the compile) ... (I have no comments on this one) > -kerberos > -ldap These aren't going anywhere so long as they're needed for proper Active Directory connectivity. I added them for a reason and don't really intend on removing them. As I said, I consider the ability to intercommunicate with Active Directory to be a *vital* capability for a desktop... any desktop. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On Thursday 02 August 2007, Martin Schwier wrote: > today I posted a bug (187475) about a minor issue about the useflag > libnotify not beeing in the default desktop profile. Me was told that > this sould be discussed on gentoo-dev. I can't really understand why > such a minor issue have to be discussed among all developers as there > are certainly much more importand things to do. > > Beeing a user I have the feeling that bugs concerning such minor issues > aren't welcome among the gentoo developers. I consider it important for > gentoo to regard such details too achieve a more polished gnome desktop > experience by default as we have now. the profiles are made up of input from many developers, so having the decision made by a single one in bugzilla is incorrect. the topic is also subject to debate and bugzilla is not the forum for wide debating in Gentoo. > -fortran (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up > the compile) fortran is an expected default in the Linux world, so you get it by default. -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
On 8/2/07, Martin Schwier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello developers,
>
> today I posted a bug (187475) about a minor issue about the useflag
> libnotify not beeing in the default desktop profile. Me was told that
> this sould be discussed on gentoo-dev. I can't really understand why
> such a minor issue have to be discussed among all developers as there
> are certainly much more importand things to do.
>
> Beeing a user I have the feeling that bugs concerning such minor issues
> aren't welcome among the gentoo developers. I consider it important for
> gentoo to regard such details too achieve a more polished gnome desktop
> experience by default as we have now.
>
> To come to the bug, I'll comment Jakub Moc's last comment:
>
> > As said above - bloating default profiles even more goes to gentoo-dev
> > mailing
> > list, so that people could comment. I for one am already annoyed enough by
> > the
> > nonsense being added there, such as USE=kerberos or USE=ldap.
>
> I agree that there is too much enabled by default, but other things are
> missing. I personally need kerberos and ldap but that shouldn't be the
> default for most singel-user desktop installations.
>
> So, these are my proposed changes for the default desktop profile:
>
> +bash-completion
> +bluetooth
Most Probably dont have/want bluetooth. I know at most 1 linux users
who would use it.
> +ffmpeg(totem isn't much without it)
> +libnotify (gives very nice popup notifications in many programs instead
> of an annoying, workflow interrupting dialog box with an OK button)
> +ppds (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it
> without further investigations. cups is already in)
No, not everyone has a printer :P
> +startup-notification
> -fortran (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up
> the compile)
> -kerberos
> -ldap
I just turned these off myself. Why?,, i like compiling for hours with
emerge --newuse ;)
The millions of lines of text make me feel geeky ;) ( lol )
> I'm curious about your comments,
>
> --
> Martin Schwier
> Gentoo user ;)
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
>
>
--
Kent
ruby -e '[1, 2, 4, 7, 0, 9, 5, 8, 3, 10, 11, 6, 12, 13].each{|x|
print "enNOSPicAMreil [EMAIL PROTECTED]"[(2*x)..(2*x+1)]}'
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Re: [gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Martin Schwier wrote: > To come to the bug, I'll comment Jakub Moc's last comment: > >> As said above - bloating default profiles even more goes to gentoo-dev >> mailing >> list, so that people could comment. I for one am already annoyed enough by >> the >> nonsense being added there, such as USE=kerberos or USE=ldap. As Donnie recently talked/blogged about philosophy ... One of the core Gentoo philosophies is that it's a meta distribution. As such, the idea of "opt in" rather than "opt out" has been the motto for quite a while. It's one defining trait of Gentoo. I'll go with Jakub on this one. Adding more stuff is only a disservice to everyone, including our users. Some use flags can do a lot of harm if you try to take them out : directfb and xcb are 2 painful examples. My 2 euro cents. :) Rémi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] default desktop profile
Hello developers, today I posted a bug (187475) about a minor issue about the useflag libnotify not beeing in the default desktop profile. Me was told that this sould be discussed on gentoo-dev. I can't really understand why such a minor issue have to be discussed among all developers as there are certainly much more importand things to do. Beeing a user I have the feeling that bugs concerning such minor issues aren't welcome among the gentoo developers. I consider it important for gentoo to regard such details too achieve a more polished gnome desktop experience by default as we have now. To come to the bug, I'll comment Jakub Moc's last comment: > As said above - bloating default profiles even more goes to gentoo-dev mailing > list, so that people could comment. I for one am already annoyed enough by the > nonsense being added there, such as USE=kerberos or USE=ldap. I agree that there is too much enabled by default, but other things are missing. I personally need kerberos and ldap but that shouldn't be the default for most singel-user desktop installations. So, these are my proposed changes for the default desktop profile: +bash-completion +bluetooth +ffmpeg(totem isn't much without it) +libnotify (gives very nice popup notifications in many programs instead of an annoying, workflow interrupting dialog box with an OK button) +ppds (everyone has a printer, and this is needed to configure it without further investigations. cups is already in) +startup-notification -fortran (not 1% of the desktop users need fortran and it speeds up the compile) -kerberos -ldap I'm curious about your comments, -- Martin Schwier Gentoo user ;) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
