Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
On 8/7/06, Simon Stelling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What sort of problems? An example backing up your claims would be very nice. While I don't agree with Enrico that splitting up slotted packages is the right thing to do, there are some corner cases involving slots that portage (more specifically, depclean) doesn't deal with very well. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/166809/focus=166809 http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67179 -Richard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Hi folks, I've seen an ugly problem w/ gtk1 + gtk2. These two different packages are treated as one. Obviously very bad behaviour. http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143063 IMHO this is a major problem, and we should fix it soon. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 09:43:00 +0200 Enrico Weigelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I've seen an ugly problem w/ gtk1 + gtk2. These two different | packages are treated as one. Obviously very bad behaviour. Uh, they're in different slots, so no, they're not treated as one. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
You've already been told it's a non-issue, but here's why: http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/slotting/index.html -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 Developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
* Simon Stelling [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: You've already been told it's a non-issue, but here's why: http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/slotting/index.html Oh hell, this can't be serious ! It mixes up diffent things to one and just introduces new problems instead of solving anything. I could live with that, if it's for supporting different ABIs, but it obviously isn't. gtk1 and gtk2 are completely different packages, they're not compatible. So why should they be one package ? Just because they share some ideas and the name ?! For example, there are lots of packages requiring gtk1, other gtk2. As long as dependencies don't cope the slot cleanly, slotting is utterly useless. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: It mixes up diffent things to one and just introduces new problems instead of solving anything. I could live with that, if it's for supporting different ABIs, but it obviously isn't. No? gtk1 and gtk2 are completely different packages, they're not compatible. So why should they be one package ? Just because they share some ideas and the name ?! Because gtk-2.xx is originated from gtk+-1.2.xx and you still have a common set of widget API ? For example, there are lots of packages requiring gtk1, other gtk2. As long as dependencies don't cope the slot cleanly, slotting is utterly useless. gtk-1 is deprecated, it will disappear sooner or later. -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: Oh hell, this can't be serious ! It is. It mixes up diffent things to one and just introduces new problems instead of solving anything. I could live with that, if it's for supporting different ABIs, but it obviously isn't. What sort of problems? An example backing up your claims would be very nice. gtk1 and gtk2 are completely different packages, they're not compatible. So why should they be one package ? Just because they share some ideas and the name ?! Yes. Why not, after all? For example, there are lots of packages requiring gtk1, other gtk2. As long as dependencies don't cope the slot cleanly, slotting is utterly useless. =x11-libs/gtk+-1.2* x11-libs/gtk+-2 do a decent job. -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 Developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
* Simon Stelling [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Enrico Weigelt wrote: Oh hell, this can't be serious ! It is. It mixes up diffent things to one and just introduces new problems instead of solving anything. I could live with that, if it's for supporting different ABIs, but it obviously isn't. What sort of problems? An example backing up your claims would be very nice. + Additional complexity (slotting) is necessary, so additional changes of bugs. + Package maintainers have to both take care of slots *and* version number *ranges* + Different packages are treated as equal, produces confusion snip gtk1 and gtk2 are completely different packages, they're not compatible. So why should they be one package ? Just because they share some ideas and the name ?! Yes. Why not, after all? So, why don't you consider libxml and libxml2 equal packages ? snip For example, there are lots of packages requiring gtk1, other gtk2. As long as dependencies don't cope the slot cleanly, slotting is utterly useless. =x11-libs/gtk+-1.2* x11-libs/gtk+-2 do a decent job. As said: you have to take care of version *ranges*. Adds additional complexity. BTW: how do you enforce an minimum gtk1 version ? cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
* Luca Barbato [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Enrico Weigelt wrote: It mixes up diffent things to one and just introduces new problems instead of solving anything. I could live with that, if it's for supporting different ABIs, but it obviously isn't. No? In this case not - it's used to mix up two different packages. snip gtk1 and gtk2 are completely different packages, they're not compatible. So why should they be one package ? Just because they share some ideas and the name ?! Because gtk-2.xx is originated from gtk+-1.2.xx and you still have a common set of widget API ? The APIs are incompatible. For example, there are lots of packages requiring gtk1, other gtk2. As long as dependencies don't cope the slot cleanly, slotting is utterly useless. gtk-1 is deprecated, it will disappear sooner or later. Maybe, maybe not. That will take some time until all packages are rewritten from gtk1 to gtk2. BTW: an problem will go away by itself sooner or later isn't actually an good argumentation for such kind of problems. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: What sort of problems? An example backing up your claims would be very nice. + Additional complexity (slotting) is necessary, so additional changes of bugs. Oh please, this is so lame. That feature has been in existance for long enough to be proven useful and not faulty. The higher probability of problems is really not the best argument when discussing features that have been around for an incredible long time. + Package maintainers have to both take care of slots *and* version number *ranges* taking care takes you one line. I already gave you both dependency strings. Now guess what: If they were two packages, it would take you one line too! OMG! + Different packages are treated as equal, produces confusion Aside from that guy who opened bug 143063 [1] I have yet to see anybody who got confused by this behaviour. So, why don't you consider libxml and libxml2 equal packages ? Because that's the way upstream names them. As said: you have to take care of version *ranges*. Adds additional complexity. BTW: how do you enforce an minimum gtk1 version ? You know that this wouldn't even make sense, as - you've pointed it out so many times - the API is incompatible. So, I'm asking you one last time: Do you have any actual good reasons to not package things the way upstream does it? [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143063 -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 Developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: BTW: how do you enforce an minimum gtk1 version ? You know, a lot of these questions of yours could be answered clearly if you look at the ebuild documentation and developer manuals. http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ is a good start. :) Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: * Luca Barbato [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Enrico Weigelt wrote: It mixes up diffent things to one and just introduces new problems instead of solving anything. I could live with that, if it's for supporting different ABIs, but it obviously isn't. No? In this case not - it's used to mix up two different packages. gtk1 and gtk2 are completely different packages, they're not compatible. So why should they be one package ? Just because they share some ideas and the name ?! Because gtk-2.xx is originated from gtk+-1.2.xx and you still have a common set of widget API ? The APIs are incompatible. They are still the both evolutions of the same development tree, they are the same package, just different versions. If we changed the name of a package every time there was an API break, we would literally have thousands of packages in the tree that essentially do the same thing, just with different API's. According to this philosophy, we should change the name of the package every time net-misc/neon comes out with a new version, since it breaks API on every version. For example, there are lots of packages requiring gtk1, other gtk2. As long as dependencies don't cope the slot cleanly, slotting is utterly useless. gtk-1 is deprecated, it will disappear sooner or later. Maybe, maybe not. That will take some time until all packages are rewritten from gtk1 to gtk2. BTW: an problem will go away by itself sooner or later isn't actually an good argumentation for such kind of problems. There is no problem, gtk1 and gtk2 can be installed on the same system at the same time, and all packages in the tree have their dependencies set up to depends on whichever version of gtk they need. SLOTS take care of this quite well. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
* Jean-Francois Gagnon Laporte [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On 8/7/06, Enrico Weigelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Simon Stelling [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: You've already been told it's a non-issue, but here's why: http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/slotting/index.html Oh hell, this can't be serious ! Yes it is and it's been in use for a Long Time Now(tm). It's not quite perfect but at least it's usable. In the current case, it's nothing more than an ugly hack for articially created non-problem. Just like the German Orthography reform ;-P snip This is useful for libraries which may have changed interfaces between versions ? for example, the gtk+ package can install both versions 1.2 and 2.6 in parallel. The assumption is wrong, gtk1 and gtk2 are incompatible versions of one library. They are completely different libraries, where one originally had been forked off the other one. Now they look similar, but are in no ways equal. snip For example, there are lots of packages requiring gtk1, other gtk2. As long as dependencies don't cope the slot cleanly, slotting is utterly useless. Ebuilds just have to depend upon =gtk-1.2* fex. Can I ask where did you find a case where portage didn't handle it cleanly ? Great, we need multiple dimensions (slots, upper version limit) to solve an artificial problem, which shouldn't exist at all. Also, file a bug on it if possible ? Yes, I'll file a bug on the whole gtk issue and all packages using this ugly hacks. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: Yes, I'll file a bug on the whole gtk issue and all packages using this ugly hacks. You can save your time. Really. And vastly more important, save our bug-wrangler's time. You've already filed a bug. It was closed as INVALID, and except for you nobody in this thread agreed with you. It won't get anywhere, because you're the only one pushing for that change. I can assure you that every single bug for every package you file will get marked as DUPLICATION of the first bug, which was closed as INVALID. -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 Developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: The assumption is wrong, gtk1 and gtk2 are incompatible versions of one library. They are completely different libraries, where one originally had been forked off the other one. Now they look similar, but are in no ways equal. you don't know gtk. stop trolling. Great, we need multiple dimensions (slots, upper version limit) to solve an artificial problem, which shouldn't exist at all. there is no problem beside your emails, please unsubscribe, move to debian-dev and be happy with apt-build. Yes, I'll file a bug on the whole gtk issue and all packages using this ugly hacks. Good way to have your account suspendend. -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
* Patrick McLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: snip The APIs are incompatible. They are still the both evolutions of the same development tree, they are the same package, just different versions. Let's take an example the automobile world: The Mitsubishi Galant is an sucessor of the Lancer in the same way as gtk2 is sucessor of gtk1. Both car types are different, just sharing many concepts. If we changed the name of a package every time there was an API break, we would literally have thousands of packages in the tree that essentially do the same thing, just with different API's. Yes, but it would be much more cleaner. Everyone would see what actually happens. Now its hidden from the user, but not changing the fact that they're different. snip According to this philosophy, we should change the name of the package every time net-misc/neon comes out with a new version, since it breaks API on every version. If APIs break with every version (on non-alpha stuff), it's principle design failure. I tend to avoid such unstable packages. Thanks for the warning of neon, so I'll never even think of using it. BTW: an problem will go away by itself sooner or later isn't actually an good argumentation for such kind of problems. There is no problem, gtk1 and gtk2 can be installed on the same system at the same time, Of course. They're different packages. and all packages in the tree have their dependencies set up to depends on whichever version of gtk they need. SLOTS take care of this quite well. Yes, but package maintainers have to be much more carefully about these dependencies, as it would be necessary if we actually would treat them as different packages. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: If we changed the name of a package every time there was an API break, we would literally have thousands of packages in the tree that essentially do the same thing, just with different API's. Yes, but it would be much more cleaner. Everyone would see what actually happens. Now its hidden from the user, but not changing the fact that they're different. __ ___ _ _ __ _ ___ ___ /_ /_ | | (_) | / / | | | | _/_ | |__ \ __ _| || |__| |_| |__ ___ / /_ _| |_| | ___| |_ __| |) | \ \/ / || |__| | | '_ \/ __| / / _` | __| |/ /_ _|__| | / / | || | | | | |_) \__ \/ / (_| | |_| |_|| |_ / /_ /_/\_\_||_| |_|_|_.__/|___/_/ \__, |\__|_|\_\|_(_)| __/ | |___/ Tell me, where is it actually hidden? I tend to avoid such unstable packages. Nice for you. We don't care. Thanks for the warning of neon, so I'll never even think of using it. Nice for you. We don't care. Of course. They're different packages. They have the same name. Different versions. That's how it is upstream and how it should be. -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 Developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico Weigelt wrote: According to this philosophy, we should change the name of the package every time net-misc/neon comes out with a new version, since it breaks API on every version. If APIs break with every version (on non-alpha stuff), it's principle design failure. I tend to avoid such unstable packages. Thanks for the warning of neon, so I'll never even think of using it. Don't forget to put sys-libs/db on your blacklist; also gtkhtml is a good candidate. And you probably shouldn't use gcc either, just to be on the safe side. ;) Which gets us to the point that you'd better have a look at other distros, which might more closely match your view. ;) -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
On 8/7/06, Enrico Weigelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The assumption is wrong, gtk1 and gtk2 are incompatible versions of one library. They are completely different libraries, where one originally had been forked off the other one. Now they look similar, but are in no ways equal. Have you actually visited http://www.gtk.org??! The 2.0 release announcement, the migration guide, the download page, pretty much everything makes it clear that gtk2 is the newer version of the _same_ library, not a completely different project. Indeed, even their CVS repository only has a gtk directory, not gtk1 and gtk2. -Richard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gtk1 vs. gtk2
Enrico, Yes, but package maintainers have to be much more carefully about these dependencies, as it would be necessary if we actually would treat them as different packages. Have you asked the gentoo package maintainers how they feel on this subject, or are you supposing/guessing? -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
