Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Northrup wrote: | Joshua Baergen wrote: | | |2) There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of |interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning |with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer. So |for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a |bug, the door starts out closed. | | | |In reference to the difficulties outlined regarding becoming a |developer above, I am in the process of becoming a dev without any |contact with developers beforehand except for filing a bug that |probably annoyed devs more than helped :P I contacted the recruiting |group in response to a requirement for developers and they were glad |to get the process started provided that I showed evidence that I |would be an asset, mainly through input on bugs currently open. | |I doubt that I am the only one who has this story, but that doesn't |mean your claim in #2 could not have happened to other people. Did |you have any specific situations you were referring to when you wrote |that? | | | | I was up late on a friday evening hacking up a nifty addition to my | system and in my excitement and exuberance jumped on IRC to the dev | channel to get pointers to the best official references to ebuild | crafting and submission. | | As it was absolutely silent, I waited a few minutes and requested voice | from the first notice of motion i saw in the channel.. re, or some | similar indication of important offical business commencing. I was | informed that the bottom line was voice was only granted to developers, | period, end of story, no exceptions, and I was obviously misinformed and | should be elsewhere. Instead of anything like assistance I wound up | being told | 1) (condescension) it was people like me who try to skirt the gentoo | process which are actually the problem even if we think it's contributing, | 2)these important people in this channel are only here so that they can | occasionally ping each other and see thier nickname had been highlighted. | 3) that under no circumstance was I going to get an audience in | #gentoo-dev, now or in future context, because it was for developers, | and regardless of 20 years coding experience or working on linux since | 0.99, I was not a developer | 4) I could feel free to file a bug if I thought there was an issue, or | talk to a recruiter about something to help out with. | First, let me say i am sorry you had this experience, i freuqntly voice people in #gentoo-dev if they seem to have the need to speak there, the reasons could be many, maybe someone uses icewm and finds it way outdated, and helps the maintainer by testing for him, being a quasi maintainer a while dow the road and eventually becoming a gentoo dev (might i add imhoi would say we have more maintainers than developers/imho?) and taking care of icewm completely then and making it a habit to apply the many gcc 3.4 patches who have been submitted to bugzilla, and lay dead and dusty there for no dev to be touched (ok so now it would be gcc4.0 but that dev might have brought on a guy who takes care of those by now ok enough stories about how use having +v in #gentoo-dev is possible, is normal, and can lead to things | my reply was that I enter #gentoo-dev, and request voice when it seems | helpful and important, without incident in all previous occasions | the response was that these developers were obviously in error and it | was irrelevant to the discussion. | | I said I'm willing to take my chances as being perceived as noise. | the response was an unceremonious kick. | | This developer was possessed with zeal and determination. to be sure. | | Anyways, it happened, it's over. the order and exact words may have | been different but the tone and the impression stuck. I spent the due | dillegence perfecting my system hack, but I did not succeed in making it | available, or finding a likely benefactor project for voip qos | settings. This was beneath the involvment of #gentoo-dev at the time i | made the approach. I spent several hours researching volumes of gentoo | info alternating between the recruitment process and the ebuild process, | on a busy weekend i had planned to spend apart from a console. | | so.. as an aside, is there a package with an interest in iptable | configuration for broadband voip qos configs? what i really replied for is to ask, if i can forward your email to a friend of mine who happens to be involved with telephony with his company, i know zero about that, i do know he does use VoIP, so maybe he finds your hack nifty | | Jim hope you better luck next time in #gentoo-dev Daniel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCqlguUpKYMelfdYERAtt8AJ4p937DdhoHGKuhgKEO8V6QLfM+gwCdHCeJ d226J9epAw42oIsGkj0+5r8= =QAsX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org
Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure
Sorry you had a bad experience. Please do not let the words and actions of one developer reflect on the hundreds of others. On Wednesday 08 June 2005 04:23 pm, Jim Northrup wrote: snip 1) There is nowhere specified on gentoo.org or gentoo maintained sites I've rtfm'd specifying any hint of conduct guidelines for being a developer interfacing with the outside world, representing the organization. Common social ettiquette does not always reside with skilled techies... We specifically talk about irc in the etiquette policy: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3chap=2 2) There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer. So for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a bug, the door starts out closed. It's a good idea to have everything bugged just for the sake of getting things accomplished. IRC is nice, and a lot of collaboration goes on there, but a lot of things fall through the cracks. If there seems to be a lot of push to interface through bugzilla, the reasons are to be able to track stuff and get it done. I hate bugzilla as much as the next guy, but I think it helps to prevent a lot of frustration from requests getting lost. Cheers, -Corey -- Corey Shields Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Team and Devrel Team Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees http://www.gentoo.org/~cshields pgpjx9pL204dG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure
Jim Northrup wrote: 1) There is nowhere specified on gentoo.org or gentoo maintained sites I've rtfm'd specifying any hint of conduct guidelines for being a developer interfacing with the outside world, representing the organization. Common social ettiquette does not always reside with skilled techies... Since you have given zero context, I'm really not sure what you are writing about. Are you saying that you are interested in becoming a developer with the task of interfacing between the development community and the user base..? 2) There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer. So for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a bug, the door starts out closed. Thats pretty much correct - the entire development community revolves heavily around bugzilla. We use it for much more than bugs - we use it for requests, suggestions, things that just aren't quite right, improvements, software submissions, documentation submissions, and many other things that aren't actually bugs. So pretty much any contribution anyone can make can or will go through bugzilla. Yes, we really really need bugzilla documentation. Secondary to bugzilla there is IRC and mailing lists. It's a lot harder to get recognised here though. According to my mail client, I've read some of your previous posts, but your name doesn't sound familiar at all. Names are much more memorable when you take a patch from bugzilla and have to physically write the contributors name into the package ChangeLog in return for their effort. But sometimes getting a wake-up call can be very useful. User feedback distant from the development community can be very useful. I tend to file bugs based on this kind of feedback. Take one I handled today, which I've seen a few times. The installation handbook contained this sentence for 5 months: As shown in the above listing, the current profile contains a 2.4 subdirectory. This means that the current profile uses the 2.6 kernel. Some users find it hard to convince themselves that this might possibly *not* be a typo. And you can't blame them, once you take a step back from the understanding that Gentoo profiles are cascaded. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you could write to Gentoo user relations with your experiences, what information you are lacking, and where you would expect to find it. Daniel -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure
On Wednesday 08 June 2005 07:23 pm, Jim Northrup wrote: so if it makes a difference, I approached a dev on #gentoo-dev, and met with condescending and belittling treatment when i asked for voice. generally when someone asks for voice and i dont recognize them i ask why they want it voice ... ive had people ask for voice before and have it turn out that they just wanted help with a bug when #gentoo was where they were supposed to be inquiring 1) There is nowhere specified on gentoo.org or gentoo maintained sites snip we maintain a specific 'needs' page that is linked off of the main page (Staffing Needs): http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure
Joshua Baergen wrote: 2) There are gentoo.org references to #gentoo-dev, but the process of interfacing, mentoring, and recruiting are self-referential beginning with a bootstrap of being on the good side of an existing developer. So for those of us who do not establish favorable dialogues by filing a bug, the door starts out closed. In reference to the difficulties outlined regarding becoming a developer above, I am in the process of becoming a dev without any contact with developers beforehand except for filing a bug that probably annoyed devs more than helped :P I contacted the recruiting group in response to a requirement for developers and they were glad to get the process started provided that I showed evidence that I would be an asset, mainly through input on bugs currently open. I doubt that I am the only one who has this story, but that doesn't mean your claim in #2 could not have happened to other people. Did you have any specific situations you were referring to when you wrote that? I was up late on a friday evening hacking up a nifty addition to my system and in my excitement and exuberance jumped on IRC to the dev channel to get pointers to the best official references to ebuild crafting and submission. As it was absolutely silent, I waited a few minutes and requested voice from the first notice of motion i saw in the channel.. re, or some similar indication of important offical business commencing. I was informed that the bottom line was voice was only granted to developers, period, end of story, no exceptions, and I was obviously misinformed and should be elsewhere. Instead of anything like assistance I wound up being told 1) (condescension) it was people like me who try to skirt the gentoo process which are actually the problem even if we think it's contributing, 2)these important people in this channel are only here so that they can occasionally ping each other and see thier nickname had been highlighted. 3) that under no circumstance was I going to get an audience in #gentoo-dev, now or in future context, because it was for developers, and regardless of 20 years coding experience or working on linux since 0.99, I was not a developer 4) I could feel free to file a bug if I thought there was an issue, or talk to a recruiter about something to help out with. my reply was that I enter #gentoo-dev, and request voice when it seems helpful and important, without incident in all previous occasions the response was that these developers were obviously in error and it was irrelevant to the discussion. I said I'm willing to take my chances as being perceived as noise. the response was an unceremonious kick. This developer was possessed with zeal and determination. to be sure. Anyways, it happened, it's over. the order and exact words may have been different but the tone and the impression stuck. I spent the due dillegence perfecting my system hack, but I did not succeed in making it available, or finding a likely benefactor project for voip qos settings. This was beneath the involvment of #gentoo-dev at the time i made the approach. I spent several hours researching volumes of gentoo info alternating between the recruitment process and the ebuild process, on a busy weekend i had planned to spend apart from a console. so.. as an aside, is there a package with an interest in iptable configuration for broadband voip qos configs? Jim -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure
I was up late on a friday evening hacking up a nifty addition to my system and in my excitement and exuberance jumped on IRC to the dev channel to get pointers to the best official references to ebuild crafting and submission. As it was absolutely silent, I waited a few minutes and requested voice from the first notice of motion i saw in the channel.. re, or some similar indication of important offical business commencing. I was informed that the bottom line was voice was only granted to developers, period, end of story, no exceptions, and I was obviously misinformed and should be elsewhere. Instead of anything like assistance I wound up being told 1) (condescension) it was people like me who try to skirt the gentoo process which are actually the problem even if we think it's contributing, 2)these important people in this channel are only here so that they can occasionally ping each other and see thier nickname had been highlighted. 3) that under no circumstance was I going to get an audience in #gentoo-dev, now or in future context, because it was for developers, and regardless of 20 years coding experience or working on linux since 0.99, I was not a developer 4) I could feel free to file a bug if I thought there was an issue, or talk to a recruiter about something to help out with. Without hearing the other side of the story or seeing a transcript of the conversation, it is hard to say whether whoever this was reacted properly or not, however I would say they have a major stick up their ass. Don't assume everybody in #gentoo-dev would have reacted to your query the same way. For example, people have asked me for voice a few times, and I grant it to them if their question or concern actually has to do with development of gentoo. If the request amounts to user support, I tell them to try #gentoo or bugzilla. In any case, if they said voice was only granted to developers, they are dead wrong. Developers have ops, while developers in training or wannabe developers are typically granted voice. -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] a #g-d first impression might represent process and metastructure
On Wed, 2005-06-08 at 21:45 -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote: I was up late on a friday evening hacking up a nifty addition to my system and in my excitement and exuberance jumped on IRC to the dev channel to get pointers to the best official references to ebuild crafting and submission. As it was absolutely silent, I waited a few minutes and requested voice from the first notice of motion i saw in the channel.. re, or some similar indication of important offical business commencing. I was informed that the bottom line was voice was only granted to developers, period, end of story, no exceptions, and I was obviously misinformed and should be elsewhere. Instead of anything like assistance I wound up being told 1) (condescension) it was people like me who try to skirt the gentoo process which are actually the problem even if we think it's contributing, 2)these important people in this channel are only here so that they can occasionally ping each other and see thier nickname had been highlighted. 3) that under no circumstance was I going to get an audience in #gentoo-dev, now or in future context, because it was for developers, and regardless of 20 years coding experience or working on linux since 0.99, I was not a developer 4) I could feel free to file a bug if I thought there was an issue, or talk to a recruiter about something to help out with. Without hearing the other side of the story or seeing a transcript of the conversation, it is hard to say whether whoever this was reacted properly or not, however I would say they have a major stick up their ass. Don't assume everybody in #gentoo-dev would have reacted to your query the same way. For example, people have asked me for voice a few times, and I grant it to them if their question or concern actually has to do with development of gentoo. If the request amounts to user support, I tell them to try #gentoo or bugzilla. In any case, if they said voice was only granted to developers, they are dead wrong. Developers have ops, while developers in training or wannabe developers are typically granted voice. I would have to agree with Stephen on this. There are a few developers that would snap like that, but don't assume we're all like that. I'm not sure if IRC would have been the best place to present you 'awesome' new thing. A better idea would probably be to post a thread on this mailing list to get more exposure. Of course, you could include your nickname for IRC, but this or the forums would be a great place to get 'noticed' per say if it really would be something to add to Gentoo. -- Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager --- GPG Public Key: http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742 ramereth/irc.freenode.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
