Re: [gentoo-user] media_build fails on Gentoo 4.2 machine....

[brettrsears]

Ouinuoyhd
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Dale 
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 03:41:07 
To: 
Reply-to: gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] media_build fails on Gentoo 4.2 machine

Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Hi people!
> I am on a gentoo machine, after updating my kernel, linux header and
> restarted my machine I wanted to compile
> "media_build"(http://git.linuxtv.org/cgit.cgi/media_build.git/about/).
>
> What could this be that I get this error ?
>
> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Ubt5qhP0
>
>
> output:
>
> /storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.c:29:30: fatal error:
> trace/events/vb2.h: No such file or directory
>  #include 
>   ^
> compilation terminated.
> scripts/Makefile.build:264: die Regel für Ziel
> „/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o“ scheiterte
> make[3]: *** [/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o] Fehler 1
> Makefile:1386: recipe for target
> '_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l' failed
> make[2]: *** [_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l] Error 2
> make[2]: Leaving directory '/usr/src/linux-4.2.3-gentoo'
> Makefile:51: recipe for target 'default' failed
> make[1]: *** [default] Error 2
> make[1]: Leaving directory '/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l'
> Makefile:26: recipe for target 'all' failed
> make: *** [all] Error 2
> build failed at ./build line 491.
>
>
>
>
> thanks!
>
> best, Tamer
>

Most likely, the error that caused it to stop is much further back. 
Find "Error 1" and then go back a few more lines and copy and paste it
here, even if it is a good bit of it.  Unless someone just happened to
run into this themselves recently, what you included may not be enough. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

Re: [gentoo-user] media_build fails on Gentoo 4.2 machine....

[J. Roeleveld]

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 02:10:41 PM Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Hi people!
> I am on a gentoo machine, after updating my kernel, linux header and
> restarted my machine I wanted to compile
> "media_build"(http://git.linuxtv.org/cgit.cgi/media_build.git/about/).
> 
> What could this be that I get this error ?
> 
> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Ubt5qhP0
> 
> 
> output:
> 
> /storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.c:29:30: fatal error:
> trace/events/vb2.h: No such file or directory
>  #include 
>   ^
> compilation terminated.
> scripts/Makefile.build:264: die Regel für Ziel
> „/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o“ scheiterte
> make[3]: *** [/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o] Fehler 1
> Makefile:1386: recipe for target
> '_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l' failed
> make[2]: *** [_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l] Error 2
> make[2]: Leaving directory '/usr/src/linux-4.2.3-gentoo'
> Makefile:51: recipe for target 'default' failed
> make[1]: *** [default] Error 2
> make[1]: Leaving directory '/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l'
> Makefile:26: recipe for target 'all' failed
> make: *** [all] Error 2
> build failed at ./build line 491.

As Dale also mentioned, only quoting the last few lines of the log is often 
insufficient.

The error indicates you are missing a dependency.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] media_build fails on Gentoo 4.2 machine....

[Dale]

Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Hi people!
> I am on a gentoo machine, after updating my kernel, linux header and
> restarted my machine I wanted to compile
> "media_build"(http://git.linuxtv.org/cgit.cgi/media_build.git/about/).
>
> What could this be that I get this error ?
>
> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Ubt5qhP0
>
>
> output:
>
> /storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.c:29:30: fatal error:
> trace/events/vb2.h: No such file or directory
>  #include 
>   ^
> compilation terminated.
> scripts/Makefile.build:264: die Regel für Ziel
> „/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o“ scheiterte
> make[3]: *** [/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o] Fehler 1
> Makefile:1386: recipe for target
> '_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l' failed
> make[2]: *** [_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l] Error 2
> make[2]: Leaving directory '/usr/src/linux-4.2.3-gentoo'
> Makefile:51: recipe for target 'default' failed
> make[1]: *** [default] Error 2
> make[1]: Leaving directory '/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l'
> Makefile:26: recipe for target 'all' failed
> make: *** [all] Error 2
> build failed at ./build line 491.
>
>
>
>
> thanks!
>
> best, Tamer
>

Most likely, the error that caused it to stop is much further back. 
Find "Error 1" and then go back a few more lines and copy and paste it
here, even if it is a good bit of it.  Unless someone just happened to
run into this themselves recently, what you included may not be enough. 

Dale

:-)  :-)

[gentoo-user] Changed behavior of webapp-config

[Dan Johansson]

The other day I noticed that the behavior of webapp-config has changed.
I have USE=vhost enabled and I have a directory structure where each
"app" is installed in htdocs in its own v-host like this:

/var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu/htdocs/
/var/www/app-2.int.dmj.nu/htdocs/

Before I could simply do the following to upgrade an app
# webapp-config -h app-1.int.dmj.nu -U app-1 1.2.3

And this would update the app-1 in /var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu to version
1.2.3
(note, there is NO -d for directory in there)

Doing this now results in this:
* Install dir flag not supplied, defaulting to "app-1".
* Fatal error: Cannot clean!
* Fatal error: No package installed in
/var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu/htdocs/app-1
* Fatal error(s) - aborting

I have played around a bit and found that if I add "-d ." it does update
the application correct but with some messages (sorry I do not have them
at hand now) about webapp-config not able to "clean" the old version.
And worse still, I then get two "active" entries in the webapp-config DB
(/var/db/webapps/app-1//installs):

One for the old version:
123456789 0 0 /var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu/htdocs

And one for the new
0987654321 0 0 /var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu/htdocs/.

Any suggestions on how to make the "new" webapp-config behave like the
"old" one (short of downgrading of cause)?

KR
-- 
Dan Johansson
***
This message is printed on 100% recycled electrons!
***

Re: [gentoo-user] Changed behavior of webapp-config

[Mick]

On Monday 26 Oct 2015 20:38:18 Dan Johansson wrote:
> The other day I noticed that the behavior of webapp-config has changed.
> I have USE=vhost enabled and I have a directory structure where each
> "app" is installed in htdocs in its own v-host like this:
> 
> /var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu/htdocs/
> /var/www/app-2.int.dmj.nu/htdocs/
> 
> Before I could simply do the following to upgrade an app
> # webapp-config -h app-1.int.dmj.nu -U app-1 1.2.3
> 
> And this would update the app-1 in /var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu to version
> 1.2.3
> (note, there is NO -d for directory in there)
> 
> Doing this now results in this:
> * Install dir flag not supplied, defaulting to "app-1".
> * Fatal error: Cannot clean!
> * Fatal error: No package installed in
> /var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu/htdocs/app-1
> * Fatal error(s) - aborting

Did you try to run it like so:

webapp-config -h app-1.int.dmj.nu -U . 1.2.3

or even better:

webapp-config -U -h app-1.int.dmj.nu 1.2.3

The above error you're getting above points to your call for 'app-1' cause 
webapp to assume the directory is '/var/www/app-1.int.dmj.nu/htdocs/app-1'

-- 
Regards,
Mick


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Re: [gentoo-user] cx23885 (DVBSky 950) under Gentoo 4.0.5

[Heiko Baums]

Am 26.10.2015 um 23:17 schrieb Tamer Higazi:
> I do have a DVBSky S950 (PCI Express) in my gentoo system.
> The poducer of this board told me that the kernel module is: cx23885
> which I don't find. Can somebody help me which modules to load ?!
> 
> Where do I find those when I compile the kernel ?
> 
> 04:00.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant Systems, Inc. CX23885 PCI
> Video and Audio Decoder (rev 04)
>   Subsystem: DVBSky S950
>   Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 18
>   Memory at fe80 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=2M]
>   Capabilities: [40] Express Endpoint, MSI 00
>   Capabilities: [80] Power Management version 2
>   Capabilities: [90] Vital Product Data
>   Capabilities: [a0] MSI: Enable- Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+
>   Capabilities: [100] Advanced Error Reporting
>   Capabilities: [200] Virtual Channel

Those cx23885 based DVB cards by DVBSky or Mystique (both are
identically) need a ClosedSource driver. The DVB chip is a cx23885. The
driver for those chips is meanwhile principally included in the kernel
but doesn't work, because it needs a ClosedSource module called sit2
which is not included in the kernel.

I once bought such a DVB-C card by DVBSky, but wasn't able to install
the driver and get it running, neither from the kernel nor from
media-build-bst on the manufacturer's website which includes this sit2
module.

Their support (the manufacturer's and the retailer's) wasn't able to or
didn't want to help me. In a lot of e-mails they more or less only
repeated the installation instructions in their README which don't work.

In the end I returned that card and bought one with an saa7146 chip
which is indeed fully OpenSource and included in the kernel. That said
this card doesn't work very well, too.

Re: [gentoo-user] cx23885 (DVBSky 950) under Gentoo 4.0.5

[Mick]

On Monday 26 Oct 2015 22:43:46 Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am 26.10.2015 um 23:17 schrieb Tamer Higazi:
> > I do have a DVBSky S950 (PCI Express) in my gentoo system.
> > The poducer of this board told me that the kernel module is: cx23885
> > which I don't find. Can somebody help me which modules to load ?!
> > 
> > Where do I find those when I compile the kernel ?
> > 
> > 04:00.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant Systems, Inc. CX23885 PCI
> > Video and Audio Decoder (rev 04)
> > 
> > Subsystem: DVBSky S950
> > Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 18
> > Memory at fe80 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=2M]
> > Capabilities: [40] Express Endpoint, MSI 00
> > Capabilities: [80] Power Management version 2
> > Capabilities: [90] Vital Product Data
> > Capabilities: [a0] MSI: Enable- Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+
> > Capabilities: [100] Advanced Error Reporting
> > Capabilities: [200] Virtual Channel
> 
> Those cx23885 based DVB cards by DVBSky or Mystique (both are
> identically) need a ClosedSource driver. The DVB chip is a cx23885. The
> driver for those chips is meanwhile principally included in the kernel
> but doesn't work, because it needs a ClosedSource module called sit2
> which is not included in the kernel.
> 
> I once bought such a DVB-C card by DVBSky, but wasn't able to install
> the driver and get it running, neither from the kernel nor from
> media-build-bst on the manufacturer's website which includes this sit2
> module.
> 
> Their support (the manufacturer's and the retailer's) wasn't able to or
> didn't want to help me. In a lot of e-mails they more or less only
> repeated the installation instructions in their README which don't work.
> 
> In the end I returned that card and bought one with an saa7146 chip
> which is indeed fully OpenSource and included in the kernel. That said
> this card doesn't work very well, too.

I have neither cards, but can see there are DVBSky 950 drivers, firmware and 
kernel patches here:

http://www.dvbsky.net/Support_linux.html

How to here:

http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVBSky

-- 
Regards,
Mick


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Re: [gentoo-user] cx23885 (DVBSky 950) under Gentoo 4.0.5

[Heiko Baums]

Am 27.10.2015 um 00:03 schrieb Mick:

> I have neither cards, but can see there are DVBSky 950 drivers, firmware and 
> kernel patches here:
> 
> http://www.dvbsky.net/Support_linux.html
> 
> How to here:
> 
> http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVBSky

I know those websites, and this driver didn't compile for me
particularly not following this How to.

Re: [gentoo-user] cx23885 (DVBSky 950) under Gentoo 4.0.5 (SOLVED)

[Tamer Higazi]

Hi people!

I have upgraded to the latest kernel 4.2.0 and selected all PCI boards
As option to choose which frontent, I selected automatic selection.

I restarted now and it all runs the way I want.

I have previously copied the firmware from dvbsky in /lib/firmware and
restarted the machine.

The board is displayed propperly and it's listed in the /dev/dvb folder:

tamer@tux ~ $ ls -lA /dev/dvb/adapter0/
insgesamt 0
crw-rw 1 root video 212, 1 27. Okt 00:12 demux0
crw-rw 1 root video 212, 2 27. Okt 00:12 dvr0
crw-rw 1 root video 212, 0 27. Okt 00:12 frontend0
crw-rw 1 root video 212, 3 27. Okt 00:12 net0


before I got to bed I recompile glibc, gcc x 2times and built the gentoo
kernel once again.


best, Tamer


Am 27.10.2015 um 00:03 schrieb Mick:
> On Monday 26 Oct 2015 22:43:46 Heiko Baums wrote:
>> Am 26.10.2015 um 23:17 schrieb Tamer Higazi:
>>> I do have a DVBSky S950 (PCI Express) in my gentoo system.
>>> The poducer of this board told me that the kernel module is: cx23885
>>> which I don't find. Can somebody help me which modules to load ?!
>>>
>>> Where do I find those when I compile the kernel ?
>>>
>>> 04:00.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant Systems, Inc. CX23885 PCI
>>> Video and Audio Decoder (rev 04)
>>>
>>> Subsystem: DVBSky S950
>>> Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 18
>>> Memory at fe80 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=2M]
>>> Capabilities: [40] Express Endpoint, MSI 00
>>> Capabilities: [80] Power Management version 2
>>> Capabilities: [90] Vital Product Data
>>> Capabilities: [a0] MSI: Enable- Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+
>>> Capabilities: [100] Advanced Error Reporting
>>> Capabilities: [200] Virtual Channel
>>
>> Those cx23885 based DVB cards by DVBSky or Mystique (both are
>> identically) need a ClosedSource driver. The DVB chip is a cx23885. The
>> driver for those chips is meanwhile principally included in the kernel
>> but doesn't work, because it needs a ClosedSource module called sit2
>> which is not included in the kernel.
>>
>> I once bought such a DVB-C card by DVBSky, but wasn't able to install
>> the driver and get it running, neither from the kernel nor from
>> media-build-bst on the manufacturer's website which includes this sit2
>> module.
>>
>> Their support (the manufacturer's and the retailer's) wasn't able to or
>> didn't want to help me. In a lot of e-mails they more or less only
>> repeated the installation instructions in their README which don't work.
>>
>> In the end I returned that card and bought one with an saa7146 chip
>> which is indeed fully OpenSource and included in the kernel. That said
>> this card doesn't work very well, too.
> 
> I have neither cards, but can see there are DVBSky 950 drivers, firmware and 
> kernel patches here:
> 
> http://www.dvbsky.net/Support_linux.html
> 
> How to here:
> 
> http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVBSky
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] cx23885 (DVBSky 950) under Gentoo 4.0.5 (SOLVED)

[Heiko Baums]

Am 27.10.2015 um 00:34 schrieb Tamer Higazi:
> Hi people!
> 
> I have upgraded to the latest kernel 4.2.0 and selected all PCI boards
> As option to choose which frontent, I selected automatic selection.
> 
> I restarted now and it all runs the way I want.
> 
> I have previously copied the firmware from dvbsky in /lib/firmware and
> restarted the machine.
> 
> The board is displayed propperly and it's listed in the /dev/dvb folder:
> 
> tamer@tux ~ $ ls -lA /dev/dvb/adapter0/
> insgesamt 0
> crw-rw 1 root video 212, 1 27. Okt 00:12 demux0
> crw-rw 1 root video 212, 2 27. Okt 00:12 dvr0
> crw-rw 1 root video 212, 0 27. Okt 00:12 frontend0
> crw-rw 1 root video 212, 3 27. Okt 00:12 net0
> 
> 
> before I got to bed I recompile glibc, gcc x 2times and built the gentoo
> kernel once again.

Maybe they finally fixed this driver. It's a while ago that I tried
this. Btw., I did the same as you did, but of course with an older
kernel version. Or the sit2 module is only needed for the DVB-C and not
for the DVB-S cards.

[gentoo-user] cx23885 (DVBSky 950) under Gentoo 4.0.5

[Tamer Higazi]

Hi people!
I do have a DVBSky S950 (PCI Express) in my gentoo system.
The poducer of this board told me that the kernel module is: cx23885
which I don't find. Can somebody help me which modules to load ?!

Where do I find those when I compile the kernel ?

04:00.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant Systems, Inc. CX23885 PCI
Video and Audio Decoder (rev 04)
Subsystem: DVBSky S950
Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 18
Memory at fe80 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=2M]
Capabilities: [40] Express Endpoint, MSI 00
Capabilities: [80] Power Management version 2
Capabilities: [90] Vital Product Data
Capabilities: [a0] MSI: Enable- Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+
Capabilities: [100] Advanced Error Reporting
Capabilities: [200] Virtual Channel



Thanks, best Tamer

[gentoo-user] Mysteriously dismounting partition

[Peter Humphrey]

Hello list,

I have a small rescue system in this box, using /dev/sda3 and /dev/sdb3 in a 
traditional partition layout. The disks are (supposedly) identical SSDs. All 
goes well when I boot the system, but by the time I come to write to sdb3 it's 
dismounted itself. It even dismounted itself once in the middle of syncing 
portage. Here's a snippet from fstab:

LABEL=RescueSys /   ext4   relatime   1 1
LABEL=RescUsrBits   /usr-bits   ext4   relatime   1 2

I keep the portage tree under /usr-bits.

# dmesg | grep sdb3
[1.753508]  sdb: sdb1 sdb2 sdb3 sdb4 < sdb5 sdb6 sdb7 sdb8 sdb9 >
[4.833460] EXT4-fs (sdb3): mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. Opts: 
(null)
[  107.205918] EXT4-fs (sdb3): mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. Opts: 
(null)

You can see the successful mount at 4.8 s; the entry at 107 s is me mounting 
it again manually.

I've rewritten the partition label, and I've run a smartctl test which 
reported no faults found. I've also just reduced the speed of the chipset, 
which has three settings: good performance, better performance and turbo. It 
adopts the turbo setting by default and I've now set it to "better". It's too 
early yet to see if that will help.

What else can I try?

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] media_build fails on Gentoo 4.2 machine....

[Tamer Higazi]

Solved... I switched back to Gentoo 4.0.5 and it all went fine... but
the driver is buggy and I don't get it to run.

I'll post a new thread.

best, Tamer


Am 26.10.2015 um 13:24 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On 24/10/2015 14:10, Tamer Higazi wrote:
>> Hi people!
>> I am on a gentoo machine, after updating my kernel, linux header and
>> restarted my machine I wanted to compile
>> "media_build"(http://git.linuxtv.org/cgit.cgi/media_build.git/about/).
>>
>> What could this be that I get this error ?
>>
>> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Ubt5qhP0
>>
>>
>> output:
>>
>> /storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.c:29:30: fatal error:
>> trace/events/vb2.h: No such file or directory
>>  #include 
>>   ^
>> compilation terminated.
>> scripts/Makefile.build:264: die Regel für Ziel
>> „/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o“ scheiterte
>> make[3]: *** [/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o] Fehler 1
>> Makefile:1386: recipe for target
>> '_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l' failed
>> make[2]: *** [_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l] Error 2
>> make[2]: Leaving directory '/usr/src/linux-4.2.3-gentoo'
>> Makefile:51: recipe for target 'default' failed
>> make[1]: *** [default] Error 2
>> make[1]: Leaving directory '/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l'
>> Makefile:26: recipe for target 'all' failed
>> make: *** [all] Error 2
>> build failed at ./build line 491.
> 
> 
> 
> Why compile manually from source when you have the awesomeness of
> portage at your disposal?
> 
> media_build is in the vdr_devel overlay.
> Install from there - the maintainer has already done the heavy lifting
> of deps and so on. make your life easier.
> 
> http://gpo.zugaina.org/media-tv/media-build-experimental
> from more info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] media_build fails on Gentoo 4.2 machine....

[Alan McKinnon]

On 24/10/2015 14:10, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Hi people!
> I am on a gentoo machine, after updating my kernel, linux header and
> restarted my machine I wanted to compile
> "media_build"(http://git.linuxtv.org/cgit.cgi/media_build.git/about/).
> 
> What could this be that I get this error ?
> 
> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Ubt5qhP0
> 
> 
> output:
> 
> /storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.c:29:30: fatal error:
> trace/events/vb2.h: No such file or directory
>  #include 
>   ^
> compilation terminated.
> scripts/Makefile.build:264: die Regel für Ziel
> „/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o“ scheiterte
> make[3]: *** [/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l/videobuf2-core.o] Fehler 1
> Makefile:1386: recipe for target
> '_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l' failed
> make[2]: *** [_module_/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l] Error 2
> make[2]: Leaving directory '/usr/src/linux-4.2.3-gentoo'
> Makefile:51: recipe for target 'default' failed
> make[1]: *** [default] Error 2
> make[1]: Leaving directory '/storage/downloads/media_build/v4l'
> Makefile:26: recipe for target 'all' failed
> make: *** [all] Error 2
> build failed at ./build line 491.



Why compile manually from source when you have the awesomeness of
portage at your disposal?

media_build is in the vdr_devel overlay.
Install from there - the maintainer has already done the heavy lifting
of deps and so on. make your life easier.

http://gpo.zugaina.org/media-tv/media-build-experimental
from more info





-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Gentoo User posting diagrams, graphics?

[James]

Hello,


So working on my new (proposed) security architecture, I need to post
some diagrams to make the questions more precise. I'm thinking about a
combination of firewall+nat and a transparent bridge-filter to prevent even
sophisticated (DDos) attacks from being successful. I use the gmane
front end to gentoo-user, so I guess the best/simplest technology for
diagrams starts with the use of  ascii_art ? 


It'd be very cool to at least use something like 'dia' or even more (color)
robust drawing tools? Folks like to keep all the pertinent info in the mail
posting, but using additional resources to put up fancy graphics, would be a
keen addition to gentoo_user, imho? Maybe  placing diagrams on a gentoo
manage resource or github?


Last, I'd like to end up with a Full Office type of example (DNS, mail and
web servers and LAN). To eventually migrate the information to  the  gentoo
wiki; so if the graphics and diagrams are gentoo wiki compatible, that would
be great.  I'd like to end up with the least steps for this. Or at least a
set of well defined filters/scripts to convert what I post to gentoo-user
into an acceptable form (jpeg?) that is easily displayed on the Gentoo wiki. 


Maybe something already exists? Maybe I should then file a bug to get wider
"buy-in" from the doc team? Ideas, discussion and examples are appreciated.


James