Re: [gentoo-user] subscribe
On Sep 10, 2005, at 8:27 PM, Dave Nebinger wrote: Josh M. Anders, MVP, MCSE+ Senior System Administrator UNIX Expert For all of that you'd think the guy would know how to subscribe to a mailing list ;-) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list LOL -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Slightly OT: favorite window manager/desktop environ?
On Sep 4, 2005, at 11:20 PM, Bob Sanders wrote: On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 00:56:56 +0100 Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Fair comment. If you're talking about individual user/admins then the learning curve of installing and administering a different OS (not necessarily more difficult, just different) is a serious obstacle. Based on my experiences, I'll disagree with you Neil. I had a couple of interns working for me last year. One was about to graduate from college and the other was in the middle of getting a Master's degree. Both were comp-sci majors. The Master's degree intern had been running Red Hat or something, but really didn't know Linux. The other intern used WinXX - college was teaching her Java, nothing much more than that. First thing I did was get them set up with systems and hand them a Gentoo minimal CD and url for the installation manual. Told them to ask anything they wanted at any time. Explained to them that they needed to learn Linux, but that RPM based distros wouldn't give them any type of broad knowledge, and wouldn't be any better than learning to install WinXX. They took about a week, with a couple of restarts, had them run fluxbox and Enlightenment before allowing them to run their choice of WM. Eventually, they moved to KDE, which is fine, but they had an X environment and additional knowledge, they could work while KDE was compiling. *Btw - they were also learning how to install and use Irix at the same time.) While they were there, they had no real problems with Gentoo. As part of their task at the time was porting/fixing former Irix tests to run on Linux, it was a lot easier to deal with the issues on Gentoo, then move the the tests to RH and SuSE, where all kinds of things broke. But they were more able to fix the tests because they had a better peek under the hood. While they've left to go to other companies, one of the interns told me that she misses her Gentoo system - she's back in the Java/WinXX world of Corporate computing. For training new technical individuals on Linux, source based distributions with package management systems that stay out of the way, are great tools. Even if the end of the road for many of them is some - keep your distance, GUI installer based, RPM Linux system. For a long time I used to think that starting a new user with a nice RPM based distribution was the right answer. I was wrong. It's the wrong answer. It teaches them nothing they can use in the future. It's painful during upgrades. It binds their hands in the shackles of - you will do things the way we tell you to do them. And letting new users utilize GUI based installers, always ends in - where is the install everything check box? They may migrate to another distribution, and that's fine. But they will be prepared and have knowledge. To use Holly's car analogy - they learned to drive a stick shift, but now want an automatic. No problem. (It's a poor analogy on my part - too simplistic and not fair to Portage.) Also, this isn't just the two interns. With only two exceptions - a Slackware user, and a remote Engineer who prefers to have Corp IS administrate the box, I've moved a lot of technical people to Gentoo. A few have gone to other dists, and a few have returned back to Gentoo - the others are just too painful to administer. But, in all cases, they are more knowledgeable because of having to "do things the hard way." And being more knowledgeable make them much more valuable as skilled employees. More so than any certification will. Bob - -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi Bob, I found your email really informative and I have a question regarding one of your final comments. To paraphrase, you state that doing things the hard way will make employees more knowledgeable, "more so than any certification will." So, my question is this: is it worthwhile to obtain certification? And, if so, which would be a better choice in your opinion: Red Hat certification or say, for instance, certification from the Linux Professional Institute? Btw, I'm not sure if I have hijacked the thread. If so, please feel free to edit the subject line. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] MacOS 10.4 (Tiger) can't connect to smaba share
On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 11:59 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > hi, > > One Mac with the new OS 10.4 (Tiger) can't connect to my Samba shares, Mac's > with 10.3 have no problems. I have also emerged the latest version of Samba. > > This is what i see in the smaba logs: > [2005/08/26 13:44:07, 0] rpc_parse/parse_prs.c:prs_mem_get(537) > prs_mem_get: reading data of size 2 would overrun buffer. > [2005/08/26 13:44:07, 0] rpc_server/srv_pipe.c:api_pipe_bind_req(919) > api_pipe_bind_req: unable to unmarshall RPC_HDR_RB struct. > > Anyone a idea > > TIA > Patrick > > Hi Patrick, I don't know if this is related, but maybe the problem is that Tiger's implementation of Samba does not support plain text passwords by default; they are now encrypted. The Mac support site offers a workaround for this. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Portage Won't Start now after update - help
Hello all, After running a new use/world update which includes the latest gnome hardmasked packages, I'm not unable to start Porthole. My system returns the following error when I attempt to run Porthole: # porthole /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/gtk-2.0/gnome/vfs.py:4: DeprecationWarning: Module gnome.vfs is deprecated; please import gnomevfs instead DeprecationWarning) PORTHOLE: Crash detected. Please submit a bug report & include the /var/log/porthole/crash.html Exception exceptions.AttributeError: "XMLManager instance has no attribute '_XMLManager__dom'" in > ignored I believe that my version of gnome-vfs is part of the problem. I'm running gnome-vfs-2.10.1-r2. I believe if I get porthole to import "gnomevfs," then porthole will work. So, how do I get it to import "gnomevs"? And, if this is not the problem, does anyone have a suggestion? Thanks all. Paul Hoy -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Beagle on Gentoo Reiserfs filesystem - Possible?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:41 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:43:05 -0400, Paul Hoy Gmail wrote: > > > The Gentoo HOWTO wiki explains that a user should enable extended > > attributes for his or her filesystems, and shows how you can do so > > with Ext2. The author of the wiki says you can do the same with > > reiserfs, but I don't recall seeing the option in the kernel (when I > > configured it a couple of weeks ago). > > It's there, I used the Wiki HOWTO to install Beagle myself quite > recently. Here are my reiserfs kernel settings > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# grep REIS /usr/src/linux/.config > CONFIG_REISERFS_FS=y > # CONFIG_REISERFS_CHECK is not set > CONFIG_REISERFS_PROC_INFO=y > CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_XATTR=y > # CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_POSIX_ACL is not set > # CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_SECURITY is not set > > > Finally, the Gentoo Wiki author adds the "user_xattr" option to the > > reiserfs entry in fstab. This suggests that reiserfs is supported. The > > fact that the option doesn't appear in the kernel, suggest that it's > > not. And, the fact that the Beagle Web site says reiserfs is not > > support Beagle also suggests that I can run Beagle on an reiserfs > > filesystem. > > You can run Beagle on a reiser3 filesystem. > > Hi, Well, I finally have some time to try out Beagle. Now, my .config settings differ from yours. They are: # grep REIS /usr/src/linux/.config CONFIG_REISERFS_FS=y # CONFIG_REISERFS_CHECK is not set # CONFIG_REISERFS_PROC_INFO is not set CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_XATTR=y CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_POSIX_ACL=y CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_SECURITY=y The last two settings differ from yours. Do you think that this could be part of the problem? Thanks. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Tue, 2005-08-16 at 13:11 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: > On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:58:54 -0400 > Paul Hoy wrote: > > > Coincidently, I received a bunch of Fedora 3 & 4 email > > updates earlier today, which shows that Gentoo is behind 23 out of 24 of > > the updates, some of them quite significantly. Most of them are > > KDE-related files, > > > That confirms my thoughts (which i posted yesterday). > > So can you clarify, is that 23/24 packages are behind on x86 or on ~x86? > > i.e. would an ~x86 gentoo be ahead or behind fedora? > > My original email was 23/24 packages for x86. However, after reading your email, I compared the first 10 kde updates with ~x86 releases. It came out that Fedora was ahead 50 percent of the time or both distros shared the same release versions. In case I'm doing something incorrectly, you can also view the updates at http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ Of course, this new comparison is between testing releases and so-called stable Fedora releases. There is a Fedora extras/unstable list (Fedora Core 4 Testing Updates) for that, but I don't receive that one. It also should be noted that the updates I listed happen to be mostly for Fedora 3, not Fedora 4. I compared some Fedora 4 releases the other day and shared them with this list and Fedora was ahead 90 percent of the time (out of about 10 recent release comparisons). Finally, after doing a ~x86 compare, I noticed that fedora-announce-list is slow to announce updates as most of the actual updates took place around the beginning of August by Redhat people. Not sure why that is. Paul > -- > Nick Rout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 22:00 +0200, Peter Karlsson wrote: > On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Paul Hoy wrote: > > > I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at > > supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as > > Fedora, > > in terms of when it releases updates, etc. > > I find that hard to believe... > I know, I would find it hard to believe too. But, just a simple comparision with the Fedora feedlist will show you that this is generally true. Coincidently, I received a bunch of Fedora 3 & 4 email updates earlier today, which shows that Gentoo is behind 23 out of 24 of the updates, some of them quite significantly. Most of them are KDE-related files, so normally I would have never noticed this. I'll keep the list for awhile in case anyone is interested in reviewing it. Of course, you can also view the Fedora feedlist website. I should also add that I noted about eight random and recent examples. Finally, other users who joined the thread have also provided examples. > > Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support > > the > > latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any > > perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does > > anyone > > wish to share a comparison of the two? > > The short version: > > LFS is for those who wishes to learn how to build an operating system from > scratch. Or for control-freaks (like me). Or a combination of both... :-) > > Gentoo is a more practical version of LFS, where "practical" means less > time-consuming, since you don't have to install each package (and it's > dependencies) yourself and there are default settings/scripts that > usually works ok with no/minor tweaking. Though you can install a package > manager in LFS too (like rpm, apt, ports etc.). > I think I'm a combination of the two also. Thanks. > HTH > > Best regards > > Peter K -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Beagle on Gentoo Reiserfs filesystem - Possible?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:41 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:43:05 -0400, Paul Hoy Gmail wrote: > > > The Gentoo HOWTO wiki explains that a user should enable extended > > attributes for his or her filesystems, and shows how you can do so > > with Ext2. The author of the wiki says you can do the same with > > reiserfs, but I don't recall seeing the option in the kernel (when I > > configured it a couple of weeks ago). > > It's there, I used the Wiki HOWTO to install Beagle myself quite > recently. Here are my reiserfs kernel settings > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# grep REIS /usr/src/linux/.config > CONFIG_REISERFS_FS=y > # CONFIG_REISERFS_CHECK is not set > CONFIG_REISERFS_PROC_INFO=y > CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_XATTR=y > # CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_POSIX_ACL is not set > # CONFIG_REISERFS_FS_SECURITY is not set > > > Finally, the Gentoo Wiki author adds the "user_xattr" option to the > > reiserfs entry in fstab. This suggests that reiserfs is supported. The > > fact that the option doesn't appear in the kernel, suggest that it's > > not. And, the fact that the Beagle Web site says reiserfs is not > > support Beagle also suggests that I can run Beagle on an reiserfs > > filesystem. > > You can run Beagle on a reiser3 filesystem. > > Thanks, Neil, for your settings. I'll modify my stuff after work this evening, and report back. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 09:28 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:40:49 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: > > > However, when I first used gentoo I was always the first in my LUG to > > have the latest kde, evolution, mplayer etc, and that was running x86 > > not ~x86. My perception is that gentoo is no longer first off the block > > with stable releases. > > I think some of this confusion is caused by the way people switch between > two uses of the word stable. It can mean "doesn't crash", but then most > upstream latest packages fit there, and some long standing releases > don't. It can also mean "not changing" and this is what some people want > from a distribution. If you run a server farm, you don't want to be > continually upgrading just to get new features you don't need, you just > want a system that works with timely security fixes. This is why Debian > stable is so old, because for these people, old is good. Look at the > situation with Firefox recently, where a new testing ebuild seemed to > come out almost as soon as the previous one finished building. Great for > those who want the latest and greatest, not so good for those who want a > stable system. Gentoo gives you the choice, and even lets you pick and > mix, so don't complain because you make an unsuitable choice. > > If you want the latest now, you need to use the testing packages, because > the QA rules demand they remain in testing for a while. > > Thanks, Neil. Already have begun testing my luck with the testing packages. I'll see what happens. Thanks for your explanation of the testking packages. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Beagle on Gentoo Reiserfs filesystem - Possible?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 08:00 +0300, Rumen Yotov wrote: > Paul Hoy Gmail wrote: > > >Hello, > > > >I'm confused about running Beagle on a Gentoo reiserfs filesystem. > > > >Gentoo provides a HOWTO Beagle (http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Beagle) > >and uses a reiserfs filesystem (included extended attributues) as an > >example throughout. However, the Beagle Web site states in its FAQ > >(http://www.beaglewiki.org/FAQ) that Beagle does not support Reiser4S: > >"Reiser4 does not support the standard Linux extended attribute > >interfaces, but instead implements its own. If/when Reiser4 supports > >extended attributes, it will be supported." > > > >The Gentoo HOWTO wiki explains that a user should enable extended > >attributes for his or her filesystems, and shows how you can do so > >with Ext2. The author of the wiki says you can do the same with > >reiserfs, but I don't recall seeing the option in the kernel (when I > >configured it a couple of weeks ago). > > > >Finally, the Gentoo Wiki author adds the "user_xattr" option to the > >reiserfs entry in fstab. This suggests that reiserfs is supported. The > >fact that the option doesn't appear in the kernel, suggest that it's > >not. And, the fact that the Beagle Web site says reiserfs is not > >support Beagle also suggests that I can run Beagle on an reiserfs > >filesystem. > > > >Any leads, hints, suggestions, solutions, answers? > > > > > > > Hi, > Using reiserfsprogs-3.6.19 (reiser-3) and also have extended-attributes > support in kernel-config (reiser-3). > Haven't checked but think/remember that reiserfs-4 has it's own > security/encryption things (in filesystem). > IMO above wiki in for reiserfs-3 only and will work with it. > Extended-attr. for reiserfs are under reiserfs-config. > HTH. Rumen Hi Rumen, Can you expand on your statement, "for reiserfs are under reiserfs-config"? Is this a patch? Thanks, Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Beagle on Gentoo Reiserfs filesystem - Possible?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 06:54 +0200, Nagatoro wrote: > Paul Hoy Gmail wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I'm confused about running Beagle on a Gentoo reiserfs filesystem. > > > > Gentoo provides a HOWTO Beagle (http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Beagle) > > and uses a reiserfs filesystem (included extended attributues) as an > > example throughout. However, the Beagle Web site states in its FAQ > > (http://www.beaglewiki.org/FAQ) that Beagle does not support Reiser4S: > > "Reiser4 does not support the standard Linux extended attribute > [...] > > Any leads, hints, suggestions, solutions, answers? > > > Could it be the difference between reiserfs and reiser4 (ie version 3.6 > vs 4)? > > -- > Naga Naga, I think you're on to something. In my ignorance, I thought that reiser4 was some sort of typo, since I never heard of reiser4. Thanks! -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 01:19 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: > alls the few > packages you can't find in Gentoo, and putting them in /usr/local or > /opt. Heck, I was doing the... Hi Walter, Exactly what I've started to do. Problem is, I'm only beginning to learn how to let Portage know that my manual install is there. Secondly, installing, say, Gnome 2.12 would be considered a major install with 9 trillion dependencies. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Beagle on Gentoo Reiserfs filesystem - Possible?
Hello, I'm confused about running Beagle on a Gentoo reiserfs filesystem. Gentoo provides a HOWTO Beagle (http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Beagle) and uses a reiserfs filesystem (included extended attributues) as an example throughout. However, the Beagle Web site states in its FAQ (http://www.beaglewiki.org/FAQ) that Beagle does not support Reiser4S: "Reiser4 does not support the standard Linux extended attribute interfaces, but instead implements its own. If/when Reiser4 supports extended attributes, it will be supported." The Gentoo HOWTO wiki explains that a user should enable extended attributes for his or her filesystems, and shows how you can do so with Ext2. The author of the wiki says you can do the same with reiserfs, but I don't recall seeing the option in the kernel (when I configured it a couple of weeks ago). Finally, the Gentoo Wiki author adds the "user_xattr" option to the reiserfs entry in fstab. This suggests that reiserfs is supported. The fact that the option doesn't appear in the kernel, suggest that it's not. And, the fact that the Beagle Web site says reiserfs is not support Beagle also suggests that I can run Beagle on an reiserfs filesystem. Any leads, hints, suggestions, solutions, answers? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 2005-08-14 at 20:55 -0500, Joe Menola wrote: > On Sunday August 14 2005 8:48 pm, Zac Medico wrote: > > You can export variables in the shell (not generally recommended) or put > > them directly on the command line. > > > > ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge -s foo > > > > It's best to use /etc/portage/package.keywords to keep your package > > specific keywords (documented in the "portage" manpage). > > From the wiki, a handy little scripts for doing this... > > http://gentoo-wiki.com/Masked#Script_for_.2Fetc.2Fportage.2Fpackage.keywords > > -jm > Joe, Very cool. Took a look at it, and I'll try it out. Thanks again. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Sun, 2005-08-14 at 18:48 -0700, Zac Medico wrote: > Paul Hoy wrote: > > > > On Aug 14, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:38:28 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through > >>> and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does > >>> not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. > >>> > >> > >> They're not "unstable", they are "testing", and that only applies to the > >> ebuild itself, not the upstream package. If you want the latest versions, > >> you need to run ~arch. Any distro that puts brand new packages (with the > >> exception of security fixes) into its stable package tree has thrown all > >> concept of QA out of the window. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Neil Bothwick > >> > >> Top Oxymorons Number 30: Business ethics > >> > > > > Hi Neil, > > > > Is there a way to explicitly search for ~arch releases or do I have set > > the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable in make.conf and hope for the best during > > emerge? > > > > Paul > > > > > > *ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable* > > > > > > You can export variables in the shell (not generally recommended) or put them > directly on the command line. > > ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge -s foo > > It's best to use /etc/portage/package.keywords to keep your package specific > keywords (documented in the "portage" manpage). > > Zac Zac, Beauty. Just tried it and found some gnome updates. Very much appreciated. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 9:34 PM, Holly Bostick wrote: Paul Hoy schreef: See inline On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:51 PM, Holly Bostick wrote: Nick Rout schreef: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. OK, I'll bite. What then do you consider "a release of a recent version" to be constituted from? I don't really understand your question. The most recent version to me coincides to a release date closest to whatever today is. OK, so what you're saying is that an application's entry into Portage unstable does not constitute a 'release' of the package in Gentoo terms, as far as you're concerned? So until Firefox 1.0.6 and KDE 3.4.2 propagate down to stable (which could take time, admittedly), it's not actually released? Well, to each his or her own, I guess. If it's been released upstream, and it's in Portage a couple of hours later, so I can install it, I don't know what more you could want what, you want a Mandrake- (or worse, still, Debian) -style wait of months before you can use the upstream version? I don't agree with you. There are many examples where a file that has been released upstream has not found its way into Portage. I've provided examples elsewhere in this thread. You can also compare with the Fedora feedlist. Yes, I know. I'm creating a list of interesting programs I've discovered that aren't in Portage or b.g.o, to practice my ebuild writing skills. But you know, I don't give the first hairy hoot about the Fedora feedlist. This idea that 'marking' a package 'stable' is some kind of magic bullet that actually *makes* the package stable is starting to get on my nerves a bit. It appears I may be contradicting myself, but I agree with you here. Fedora releases something as stable, but in some cases, it's far from it. NetworkManager is my favourite example. What Gentoo marks or doesn't mark the package, or in fact whether or not it's in Portage, generally has nothing to do with the status of the package itself. There are plenty of perfectly stable packages in Gentoo unstable, plenty of stable ebuilds (meaning that they compile the application correctly, and beyond that point it depends on the upstream stability) in b.g.o, and even a few on breakmygentoo.org. And plenty of 'stable' packages that just act wonky in various ways as upstream manages the changes in whatever they're doing (migrating to the freedesktop standard, implementing DirectX 9 support, working around video driver bugs, kernel bugs, scheduler changes, you name it). I use what I need, and I get what I need from wherever it may happen to be. Most of it comes from Portage, of course, but I've got some ebuilds in my overlay from b.g.o, a couple from Project Utopia, and some perl Yes, I've scanned over the instructions for creating your own ebuilds and I've experimented with the Gnome 2.12 beta ebuild put out by someone. modules from cpan. It all works pretty well, and when it doesn't, I either ditch the package until it works a bit better, or fix it myself (and report what I had to do up the chain, if appropriate). It all looks a bit patchwork I suppose, but it's my patchwork, and so I know what sticky-out-bit goes where... most of the time. And I decide if there's going to be sticky-out-bits at all...there's no way, with an ATI card, that I'm going anywhere near the new modular X for quite a while, for Yes, that is one of my great joys - having an ATI card on my Notebook. example. But not because of Gentoo... because there's way too many upstream cooks for me to think they're going to concoct a 'stable' brew, *for me*, anytime soon. I said before and I do believe that the Gentoo dev team will do their very best (and that's damn good) to provide stable ebuilds that work as well as possible, but there's way too much whitewater flowing down the channel for me to believe that even they can successfully guide me through these difficult transitions. It just seems to me that if you want or expect a team of well-paid experts monitoring all possible inconveniences and smoothing them over before you even see them... well, then Fedora would be the place to be. Or SuSE. Gentoo or Ubuntu, on the other hand Again, I don't think Fedora removes all the defects at all. SuSE doesn't either, at least for the Gnome desktop. And, believe it not, neither does Ubuntu, notably with packaging. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 8:58 PM, Holly Bostick wrote: Paul Hoy schreef: On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:42:19 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Gentoo has rolling updates, so it is always up to date. If you want to run the latest of everything you will need to run a ~arch system. There are no releases for Gentoo beyond the installation live CDs. Once installed, provided you keep up to date, there is no difference between a system installed three years ago and one installed yesterday. -- Neil Bothwick Windows Error #09: Game Over. Exiting Windows. Hi Neil, ~arch is a little scary for me, since it's not in the stable branch. Paul Well, that's understandable, if that's the way you are, but "you" (generic) can't have it both ways. If you want the latest upstream release of whatever, it's not necessarily going to be stable... all newly-released software is subject to bugs that only come out with use of the kind that only freaky ol' users can conceive. No, I want it one way: to receive the latest stable releases. I didn't say anything about unstable or testing releases. No distribution marks anything stable until it's old enough to have been worked to death to get the bugs out. Which is fine. Nobody's making anybody use ~, and if you (generic) value stability, you're already used to waiting. It's true that there is a backlog of submitted ebuilds on b.g.o... some of them are perfectly stable (but just aren't in actual Portage yet), some need some help before they'll work properly (because the ebuild writer made some mistakes along the way). I've been following the taskjuggler b.g.o ebuild for a couple of months, and that just made it into Portage yesterday. But I've had taskjuggler for a couple of months (had to hack the ebuild to get it to compile). I'm looking forward to upgrading to the new ebuild to see if all of the kinks have been ironed out. This is good to hear. I plan to investigate this ebuilds further. Almost all Linux software is a constantly-evolving WIP, and conforming a WIP to a distribution which itself is a WIP is a big job. The only way it can "succeed" in terms of being considered temporarily stable is to freeze things at some point. RedHat (Fedora) and other binary distros do this themselves (you won't get thus-and-so version of X application until they've worked out the kinks between the app and the distro). This is not the case with Fedora. Fedora is generally seen (and experienced) as a test-bed, if you like, for Red Hat. Gentoo relies on you to do this for yourself. Mask all of unstable if that's how you want it (and wait for it to propagate down). Or unmask specific programs that you're willing to deal with some possible instability in order to 'keep up with the Joneses'. Or just live wild and run completely unstable (which usually works, but can go horribly, horribly wrong on occasion-- I still haven't gotten over the PAM debacle that ate my previous Gentoo install). It's up to you. It always is, with Gentoo... which is why I love it. But I don't so much see what there is to debate about-- your system is *yours*; run it the way you want. Again, if you see the original email. This wasn't about a debate. It was about getting perspectives from people who used both LFS and Gentoo. Thanks, Holly. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 9:01 PM, Zac Medico wrote: Paul Hoy wrote: On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:42:19 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Gentoo has rolling updates, so it is always up to date. If you want to run the latest of everything you will need to run a ~arch system. There are no releases for Gentoo beyond the installation live CDs. Once installed, provided you keep up to date, there is no difference between a system installed three years ago and one installed yesterday. -- Neil Bothwick Windows Error #09: Game Over. Exiting Windows. Hi Neil, ~arch is a little scary for me, since it's not in the stable branch. We, you do know that you can pick which ~arch packages you want, right? In most cases it's pretty safe to use a "keyword masked" package, especially if the masked package is not depended on by your core gentoo system. Zac -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi Zac, Yes, I know how to unmask. But, when you say "pick which ~arch packages...," does this mean I can search for ~arch packages too or do I have to set the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable? Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 7:26 PM, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 5:43 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 2:42 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO google>"gentoo"=3,990,000 hits google>"lfs"=877,000 hits -jm Hi Joe, What about the LFS community - did you find it helpful? Of course, the answer is probably objective. Developer types may not have to rely so much on community whereas those who have the great capacity to take forever to understand the point, like myself, require a good community. Also, I agree with you that the Gentoo documentation (most of it) is excellent; I've printed, and have read most of it. One more question, and it's the most obvious. You said that Gentoo and LFS are more or less equal. So, that begs the question: what persuaded you to stick with Gentoo? Thanks , Paul The LFs community was very helpful, I couldn't have built a working system without them. :) I just find it easier when Goggle finds other documented problems that match mine. The size of the Gentoo user base makes this much more likely with Gentoo vs LFS. To answer the obvious...Gentoo is easier to build then LFS. LFS's style of package by package installing is great for learning the workings of Linux, and I wouldn't trade-in my experience with LFS for anything. Yes, that's what attracted me to Gentoo and to LFS/BLFS also: I'm interested in learning the inner workings of Linux. I've hacked around with Linux since the very early days of Redhat, but I still don't have a comprehensive understanding of the OS. This is despite that fact that I usually used tarballs rather than RPMs, even in Redhat and Fedora. But starting from scratch with LFS and obtaining a working Kde desktop took me (from memory) a few weeks to build. With Gentoo, I was there in a few days thanks to "emerge kde-meta". Yeah, there were even some pre-compiled Linux distros in which it took a long time to get a Gnome desktop (vlos and foresight linux, for instance). Like you, it took me a few days to get a working Gnome desktop with Gentoo. -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Thanks, Joe. This is the kind of conversation I was looking for. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote:On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:38:28 +1200, Nick Rout wrote: Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast throughand through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it doesnot constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. They're not "unstable", they are "testing", and that only applies to theebuild itself, not the upstream package. If you want the latest versions,you need to run ~arch. Any distro that puts brand new packages (with theexception of security fixes) into its stable package tree has thrown allconcept of QA out of the window.-- Neil BothwickTop Oxymorons Number 30: Business ethics Hi Neil,Is there a way to explicitly search for ~arch releases or do I have set the ACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable in make.conf and hope for the best during emerge?PaulACCEPT_KEYWORDS variable
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 6:06 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Sunday 21 August 2005 22:05, Jerry McBride wrote: What and where EXACTLY is gentoo behind any other release? gcc4 since fedora switched to gcc4, all the version-number-junkies got itchy. Is not too bad, if some of them go to fedora... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list --> "Is not too bad, if some of them go to fedora..." As an aside, some in the Gentoo community have been accused of arrogance. I don't know whether this is true though. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
See inline On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:51 PM, Holly Bostick wrote: Nick Rout schreef: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. OK, I'll bite. What then do you consider "a release of a recent version" to be constituted from? I don't really understand your question. The most recent version to me coincides to a release date closest to whatever today is. If it's been released upstream, and it's in Portage a couple of hours later, so I can install it, I don't know what more you could want what, you want a Mandrake- (or worse, still, Debian) -style wait of months before you can use the upstream version? I don't agree with you. There are many examples where a file that has been released upstream has not found its way into Portage. I've provided examples elsewhere in this thread. You can also compare with the Fedora feedlist. I'll grant you that it's sometimes a little bumpy... but then you might as well be running Slack or something (not that there's anything wrong with Slackware except the appalling package management). I agree. I don't like like Slackware's package management either. But since I have yet to find a problem I couldn't solve in a few minutes-- and if I couldn't, it was clearly a dev issue/b.g.o issue, where I could generally count on it to be solved within hours, if not prior to my discovery-- I really can't quite see what you're on about. Perhaps you've pointed out the difference in perspectives and experience. I've run into a few problems where it has taken me longer than a merely few mintues to resolve a problem. I'm actually not "on about" anything. I'm interested in the differrences/similarities between LFC and Gentoo, which I stated in my original email. What would be different in the Gentoo you envision? Well, that's actually the question I'm asking. Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Nick Rout wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:12:31 -0700 Zac Medico wrote: Hi Paul, Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)? Unstable does not really cut it IMHO. I am a gentoo enthusiast through and through, but plonking something in portage with a ~ beside it does not constitute a release of a recent version IMHO. Zac -- Nick Rout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi Nick, Yup, I've unmasked a few packages .. openoffice_ximian, for instance. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:24 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote:On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:42:19 -0400, Paul Hoy wrote: I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Gentoo has rolling updates, so it is always up to date. If you want torun the latest of everything you will need to run a ~arch system. Thereare no releases for Gentoo beyond the installation live CDs. Onceinstalled, provided you keep up to date, there is no difference between asystem installed three years ago and one installed yesterday.-- Neil BothwickWindows Error #09: Game Over. Exiting Windows. Hi Neil,~arch is a little scary for me, since it's not in the stable branch. Paul
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 21, 2005, at 4:05 PM, Jerry McBride wrote: On Sunday 14 August 2005 03:42 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: Hi all, This email isn't intended to troll, but to explore Linux variants that share certain characteristics. Nice way to introduce yourself on a distribution support maillist :') I'm sorry that you find the idea of exploring "Linux variants that share certain characteristics" so inflammatory and out-of-place on a Linux mailing list. I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Huh? A-huh. See http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point- of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? Yeah, sure... Gentoo is more fun. As for being "behind other releases"... you gotta-be-kiddin See: http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/ See random list provided to another member on this list What and where EXACTLY is gentoo behind any other release? gcc openoffice mysql php etc, etc -- ** Registered Linux User Number 185956 FSF Associate Member number 2340 since 05/20/2004 Join me in chat at #linux-users on irc.freenode.net Buy an Xbox for $149.00, run linux on it and Microsoft loses $150.00! 4:46pm up 27 days, 16:45, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 4:12 PM, Zac Medico wrote:Paul Hoy wrote: Hi all,This email isn't intended to troll, but to explore Linux variants that share certain characteristics. I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two?Thanks all,Paul Hi Paul,Are we really far behind? That's difficult to believe. For what packages specifically? Do you know how to unmask unstable packages (marked M or M~ at packages.gentoo.org)?Zac-- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi Zac,I just grabbed a few semi-random examples from the Fedora feed-list (http://fedoraproject.org/infofeed/). These are stable updates between July and August. xpdf-3.00-20vim-common-6.3.086-0openoffice.org-core-1.9.112-1gcc-4.0.1-4.fc4.i386all the mysql filesall the php files xorg-x11-xdm-6.8.2-37metacity-2.10.0-2NetworkManager (no Gentoo version)ethereal-gnome (Can't find a Gentoo equivalent)kernel-xenU-devel-2.6.12-1.13 (no Gentoo version)zlib (Gentoo has more recent release than Fedora)gnome-panel-2.10.1-10.1.i386.rpm (Gentoo has more recent release than Fedora)
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:33 PM, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 4:22 pm, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 16:05:22 -0500, Joe Menola wrote: I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO What about package management? Good point, since LFS has none built in, I guess Gentoo wins here as well. -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi guys, Actually, BLFS has six different package management options. Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
On Aug 14, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Joe Menola wrote: On Sunday August 14 2005 2:42 pm, Paul Hoy wrote: Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two? I've built both Gentoo and LFS. A side by side comparison comes up pretty much equal. Except for documentation, where Gentoo wins hands down. IMO google>"gentoo"=3,990,000 hits google>"lfs"=877,000 hits -jm -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list Hi Joe, What about the LFS community - did you find it helpful? Of course, the answer is probably objective. Developer types may not have to rely so much on community whereas those who have the great capacity to take forever to understand the point, like myself, require a good community. Also, I agree with you that the Gentoo documentation (most of it) is excellent; I've printed, and have read most of it. One more question, and it's the most obvious. You said that Gentoo and LFS are more or less equal. So, that begs the question: what persuaded you to stick with Gentoo? Thanks , Paul -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Gentoo or Linux from Scratch - Perspectives?
Hi all,This email isn't intended to troll, but to explore Linux variants that share certain characteristics. I really like Gentoo and I like that fact that it does a pretty good job at supporting Gnome, however, it's still behind other releases, such as Fedora, in terms of when it releases updates, etc. Linux from Scratch looks very interesting: it appears to rapidly support the latest updates and it has decent documentation. Does any one have any perspectives on Linux from Scratch, from a Gentoo point-of-view? Does anyone wish to share a comparison of the two?Thanks all,Paul
