Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
S. Bergeron wrote: Except you cannot do good QA on source-based packages, because there are too many variables involved. You build a binary, test the hell out of it. If it works as it's supposed to, you release it. If not, you patch, rebuild, and test again. You also don't change software revisions within the stable release unless you absolutely need to -- you backport bugfixes to minimize breakage. If there's a vuln in kernel 2.6.8, you don't move users up to 2.6.11, you fix 2.6.8, and test to make sure the patch doesn't affect other applications. You need to add SATA cards to your www cluster to add more space. Turns out that driver that is supposed to work in 2.4.20 is barely holding it together. Now you're rolling you're own 2.4.27 package and hoping that 2.4.28 comes out real soon. You have two web clusters running the same software. You add a third cluster for a new customer. They have a hard requirement for PHP 4.3.9+ with sablotron, xml, and some other nonsense. Trying to do this in the existing OS requires no less than 18 custom packages to be built, most of them supporting libs. For every example anyone has of wanting to back port changes, not change version, etc I can name two where I'd rather be able to go to the next version easily. I would guess that most admins doing a number of customer driven upgrades find themselves in the same posistion. Either you get really good at building and maintaining mutiple sets of RPMs... and damn does that suck. Or you find an OS that takes care of it for you. Granted I'm in the ISP space which moves much faster than the short bus of IT known as The Enterprise. But it seems to me you're going to be doing quite a bit of QA whether you like it or not. While not as professional sounding, 1-2k users testing a package and bitching if something goes wrong on the forums it is at least as accurate as any real QA team I have dealt with. kashani -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Wed, 18 May 2005, Pingveno wrote: If a Gentoo system uses entirely stable packages, upgrades are a simple command away. But then you have to wait hours, even days, for much of the system to be recompiled. It's more than most users would tolerate. There are reasons many roll their eyes when they see someone spend hours on a KDE install. Surely that depends on your hardware... Gentoo is an excellent distro, with one of the most comprehensive repositories of packages of any Linux distribution. It is powerful and excellently constructed. But to say maintenance and upgrading is easy is like saying Windows is as suitable as Unix/Linux in a server environment. It's just not true and realistic. Depends what yardstick you are comparing against - if you've never had to maintain RH boxes for instance you wouldn't know how much easier Gentoo really is. -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Wed, 18 May 2005, Pingveno wrote: Bit of a pet peeve here: making things look easier than they really are. I do quite a bit of emerging of packages that aren't stable yet. I have an installation of PHP 5 that, if upgraded from its current version (mod_php-5.0.3-r1) would cause an update of Apache to an unstable version, which would in turn cause portage to try to satisfy dependencies of Apache that include another unstable package. emerge -u world fails on this and other packages. Are you doing this the wrong way (ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=~x86) as it seems, or the right way via package.keywords? If a Gentoo system uses entirely stable packages, upgrades are a simple command away. But then you have to wait hours, even days, for much of the system to be recompiled. Why would you recompile your system? It's more than most users would tolerate. There are reasons many roll their eyes when they see someone spend hours on a KDE install. You can tell them that while a Gentoo user may have to wait some hours for a new version of KDE to compile, it may be available to Gentoo users days/weeks/months earlier than to those using other distros. Gentoo is an excellent distro, with one of the most comprehensive repositories of packages of any Linux distribution. It is powerful and excellently constructed. But to say maintenance and upgrading is easy is like saying Windows is as suitable as Unix/Linux in a server environment. It's just not true and realistic. If I understood you correctly, it may be more realistic than you think. But I agree Gentoo is not the easiest distro. -Pingveno -- T.G. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Thu, 19 May 2005, Philip Webb wrote: 050519 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, May 19, 2005 2:12 am, Philip Webb said: i don't even do the approved 'emerge world' in maintaining my system i rely on a home-made list of packages i've installed, What is the world file if not a home made list of the packages you have installed? it's not home-made, it's system-made: anything you emerge (apart from dependencies) without '--oneshot'. if you update a pkg which you've installed to support something else -- Qt would be a good example -- , it gets dumped in 'world', unless you add '--oneshot'. then if you delete eg KDE , Qt remains in 'world' keeps getting remerged without a good reason. I don't understand why it is like this. IMO portage could (or rather should) behave like this: If you 'emerge dependency-foo', portage sees that it is_not_listed in world, and that this is_a_rebuild so it leaves_the_world_file_unmodified. This way the world file would always only have the right packages and a user would not have to worry about it anymore. And no more one should have remember to use --oneshot option when rebuilding dependencies (like alsa-driver). I'd also like to see portage keeping it in alphapetical order. At the moment it is a mess because of that *too*. -- T.G. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Grant wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. I can't say I've experienced emotional discrimination, but I've found many peoples of my country trying to demonstrate why any other distro is better than gentoo, specially in those who are using Debian. In the other hand I've saw that Gentoo is not a popular distro as Red Hats or Debians distros are. They argued there's too much work and it is too hard. I prefer Gentoo mainly for two reasons. It is much more easy to maintain updated my systems and, as apprentice, I found it is great for learn because I believe that is better done by myself than done for me and Gentoo gave me a better experience in it. greetings jose a.r. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Depends what yardstick you are comparing against - if you've never had to maintain RH boxes for instance you wouldn't know how much easier Gentoo really is. Amen to that. That goes double for old hardware. Creighton -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Check out the prejudice in this one. . . . This guy kashani has a remarkable understanding of linux and networking aside from the current thread. On May 18, 2005, at 6:58 PM, kashani wrote: Grant wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. - Grant I've only done the discriminating based on other people's non use of Gentoo. :-) Actually mentioning Gentoo was a good way of getting past the so have you ever heard of Linux conversations I ran into last time I went to a LUG. I will admit that this particular LUG was populated by some serious dyed in the wool longhair-ed hippie types complete with oddball PhD's in dead languages. Having had a haircut that month it was apparently impossible that I actually already used Linux so I was offered a live CD, numerous times, by the same people. It finally stopped when I said: Thanks for the Ubuntu disk, but I use Gentoo. kashani -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list _ Keith Gosse, Resource Room Teacher, School CounselorThornhill Jr. Secondary School, Terrace, B.C., V8G 4N8 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
to a LUG. I will admit that this particular LUG was populated by some serious dyed in the wool longhair-ed hippie types complete with oddball PhD's in dead languages. Having had a haircut that month it was apparently impossible that I actually already used Linux so I was Us long haired Linux using hippies take offense to that. :P -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination OOPS
Sorry list, was sending the thread to a friend who uses linux and is a bit frustrated with his current gentoo install - hit reply instead for forward . . Keith -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Thu, May 19, 2005 3:37 pm, Philip Webb said: 050519 Neil Bothwick wrote: What is the world file if not a home made list of the packages you have installed? it's not home-made, it's system-made: It is home made in that only files I specify to be included in it, by emerging them directly, are. anything you emerge (apart from dependencies) without '--oneshot'. if you update a pkg which you've installed to support something else -- Qt would be a good example -- , it gets dumped in 'world', unless you add '--oneshot'. then if you delete eg KDE , Qt remains in 'world' keeps getting remerged without a good reason. If a package is merged as a dependency, it will be updated by emerge world -uavDN, so it won't be added to the world file. There is never a need to merge a dependency manually. i made a file using 'qpkg -I' keep it upto-date by hand with Vim whenever i add/remove/update a pkg: that way i know exactly what's there whether they're 'W'orld, 'S'ystem or [for KDE] (i mark them individually). But qpkg -I does list all installed packages, whereas a world file should never list dependencies, unless you do something wrong. i really don't understand why 'world' is set up the way it is: it's contrary to the fundamental principle of Gentoo, which is that the user decides what s/he has installed in their box. I don't understand what your complaint is. world should only contain what you have decided to install on your box. If it doesn't, you have somehow messed up world, so you may as well edit this as create a new file. -- Neil Bothwick -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On 5/19/05, Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 19, 2005 3:37 pm, Philip Webb said: 050519 Neil Bothwick wrote: What is the world file if not a home made list of the packages you have installed? it's not home-made, it's system-made: It is home made in that only files I specify to be included in it, by emerging them directly, are. anything you emerge (apart from dependencies) without '--oneshot'. if you update a pkg which you've installed to support something else -- Qt would be a good example -- , it gets dumped in 'world', unless you add '--oneshot'. then if you delete eg KDE , Qt remains in 'world' keeps getting remerged without a good reason. If a package is merged as a dependency, it will be updated by emerge world -uavDN, so it won't be added to the world file. There is never a need to merge a dependency manually. i made a file using 'qpkg -I' keep it upto-date by hand with Vim whenever i add/remove/update a pkg: that way i know exactly what's there whether they're 'W'orld, 'S'ystem or [for KDE] (i mark them individually). But qpkg -I does list all installed packages, whereas a world file should never list dependencies, unless you do something wrong. i really don't understand why 'world' is set up the way it is: it's contrary to the fundamental principle of Gentoo, which is that the user decides what s/he has installed in their box. I don't understand what your complaint is. world should only contain what you have decided to install on your box. If it doesn't, you have somehow messed up world, so you may as well edit this as create a new file. I sort of took his comments a little differently - not so much as a complaint. With all the work I've done on my three home systems so far I've come to both respect the way the system works (world file and all) but also to see that there are choices that aren't so obvious to me. For instance every system I run uses X, but on every system I've built I emerged X11 before I emerged whatever environment I was going to run. (fluxbox or Gnome, but also I've tried out xfce, kde, etc.) So, should xorg-x11 be in my world file? It is if I emerge it first, but it's not (I think) if I build the machine and the first emerge I kick off is emerge gnome. I've now removed xorg-x11 from my world file since I will never remove it and will always have something on the system that requires X. On the other hand Qt is an interesting one also. I don't think I've ever ran a system for very long that didn't need it for at least 1 or 2 apps. (Home recording studio apps - lots are kde based.) However when I have to build Qt it takes so long that I don't want to make a mistake and remove it and then have to build it again. In this case I've purposely added Qt to my world file so that it won't go away by mistake. I like that I have this level of control, but I also see the world file as a little bit fragile, sort of like etc-update. I appreciate that I can build it by hand, if I choose, and keep my machine pretty close to where I think optimum is for me. cheers, Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
050519 Tero Grundstr?m wrote: On Thu, 19 May 2005, Philip Webb wrote: i don't even do the approved 'emerge world' in maintaining my system -- various snips -- I'd also like to see portage keeping it in alphapetical order. At the moment it is a mess because of that *too*. yes, that's a 2nd issue with the current state of things. BTW the response if you do 'emerge -blah world' everything's hunky-dory ignores the fact that some -- most ? -- users don't want to update 'world', which can take hours, eg if OpenOffice is one of the pkgs in 'world' (currently there's an '-r1' update which fixes some obscure vulnerability, which i checked out it doesn't threaten my system with my use of OO). ok yes, the next similar response will be then don't use OO ... , but at that point i return to my other more important concerns of today. really, 'world' was created back in the early days of Gentoo needs a certain amount of rethinking by the devs, but it's their time effort to choose how they use i can happily dodge around the problem as i've been doing for a long time. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
I've only done the discriminating based on other people's non use of Gentoo. :-) My brother's father-in-law has just retired and spends all his time in front of his computer. I have tried to get him onto linux but am a little too far away to do it effectively. His son has a mate that is one of those perfect gentoo wankers. You won't be able to understand Linux (the f-in-l is an engineer, and a [EMAIL PROTECTED]' chess Master!!!). I tried to get him started with Mandrake but he ended up trying with fedora. No success yet but I am going to go and sort him out this summer. The son's mate could easily come around and sort his probs (mainly ISDN-related) out with something that didn't require configuring a kernel but he prefers to be the superior Gentoo man. You just use windows - you're too old to move to linux... I won't give you my opinion of this guy, cos there wouldn't be anyone on this list who would have at least half the expletives I have used ;-). Cheers Antoine -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:51:49 -0400, Philip Webb wrote: BTW the response if you do 'emerge -blah world' everything's hunky- dory ignores the fact that some -- most ? -- users don't want to update 'world', which can take hours, eg if OpenOffice is one of the pkgs in 'world' (currently there's an '-r1' update which fixes some obscure vulnerability, which i checked out it doesn't threaten my system with my use of OO). In which case, mask that particular version, as you don't need it. When a newer version comes out, you can use emerge -l to see whether you now need to upgrade, and mask that if not, but at least emerge world is keeping you informed of updates. ok yes, the next similar response will be then don't use OO ... , While I'd love to do that, unfortunately there's sometimes no alternative to sitting around waiting for OOo to start :( -- Neil Bothwick User - a technical term used by computer pros. See idiot. pgpDu8jpvfpKU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
For a number of reasons, its quite incomplete and inaccurate - especially on older systems! BillK On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 09:09 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, May 19, 2005 2:12 am, Philip Webb said: i don't even do the approved 'emerge world' in maintaining my system i rely on a home-made list of packages i've installed, What is the world file if not a home made list of the packages you have installed? -- Neil Bothwick -- William Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home! -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On 5/18/05, Sad Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gentoo is different. Thats its strength as far as I can see. If I wanted a 'my computer' icon on my desktop, indeed if I wanted to be forced to use a desktop I could just take the easy way out and stay with windows. Or if you are a KDE user, just rename the Home icon which can be found on your desktop on a default install to 'My Computer'. :P This in my opinion would be the easiest way out! Hareesh -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On May 19, 2005, at 2:54 pm, A. Khattri wrote: Gentoo is an excellent distro, with one of the most comprehensive repositories of packages of any Linux distribution. It is powerful and excellently constructed. But to say maintenance and upgrading is easy is like saying Windows is as suitable as Unix/Linux in a server environment. It's just not true and realistic. Depends what yardstick you are comparing against - if you've never had to maintain RH boxes for instance you wouldn't know how much easier Gentoo really is. I spent last week trying to learn (k)Ubuntu, as I wanted a binary-based distro for my laptop so I can install packages on site without long compiles. Perhaps I've just been using Gentoo too long (2 or 3 years now), as I couldn't wrap my head around it - Ubuntu seems to be very nice distro, and it is very polished out of the box, but it seemed to be missing things from the perspective of advanced configuration. I bought this laptop in order to test 802.11g cards which I'll be selling as guaranteed Linux-compatible, and all the support I could find in terms of wireless configuration seemed to assume you'd be using kWiFiManager or the equivalent to set up your SSID, WEP key c. There is an /etc/networks/interfaces file, but for adding multiple (home, work, Dave's house) SSIDs it seemed nowhere near as easy to setup than recent Gentoo baselayouts. After testing the second card I just gave up with Ubuntu, and installed Gentoo on it - using stage 3 GRP (the latter for the first time) it took me 3 or 4 hours to get it to the KDE desktop, but I'm much happier now that I'll be able to get the latest versions of wi-fi driver packages and that I'll be sure that any problems are with the card not with myself or my distro. This is not a criticism of Ubuntu, as I'm sure at least half the problem was that I've become used to the Gentoo way of doing things, and that you can't teach an arthritic canine a new repertoire. Stroller. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. - Grant -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Hahah I get batted by my friends regularly about using Gentoo and not Suse and such. Apparently it requires to much constructive work to keep it running or get it running for that matter but then they dont understand anything about keeping your system uptodate with and emerge --synce emerge --world do they?! I wont even get onto my Windows using friends though they just shake their heads. I suppose each person is a zealot for their favourite distro heck I am for Gentoo, I guess thats just linux users for you :/ Cheers Rav On 5/19/05, Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. - Grant -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 03:13:37PM -0700, Grant wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. I don't think it's the distro, but a certain class of users with evangalism gone wrong :) I think anyone whose been to the site: http://funroll-loops.org/ should be able to understand why. Gentoo has attracted a fair number of people who think that they are linux gurus because they install gentoo and are out there screaming from the hills that gentoo is 31337 to the max, and the real users who are using gentoo for real reasons get lumped in with the zealots. This is of course true (in yesteryear) to os/2 users being associated with team os/2, and of course windows/linux/mac users being lumped in with their own respective os zealots these days. In the end linux is linux, some people like the DIY of linux from scratch or gentoo, others the commercial likes of redhat, others are rpm or deb fans, hell, some people even prefer mac or windows. Long as it works for you, who cares. -- Alan [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://arcterex.net Backups are for people who don't pray. -- big Mike -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Wed, 18 May 2005 15:27:25 -0700 Alan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I think anyone whose been to the site: http://funroll-loops.org/ | should be able to understand why. Gentoo has attracted a fair number | of people who think that they are linux gurus because they install | gentoo and are out there screaming from the hills that gentoo is 31337 | to the max, and the real users who are using gentoo for real | reasons get lumped in with the zealots. Oh, there aren't that many of them, they're just really really noisy and obnoxious. Problem is, some people who don't know any better are starting to follow their example and use daft CFLAGS, broken kernels and hard-masked packages without understanding why it's a bad idea. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpr7W2xm0km3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
I cant say I have, then again I tower over everyone at my college, so few ever pass any negative comments my way. I have had respect, as gentoo is percieved as one of the harder distributions to use (actually some rate it the hardest except linux from scratch) from the IT department. There was that whole Gentoo is for ricers website which generally mocked the gentoo community for their 'futile' quest to eck every last ounce of CPU power from their machines. The gentoo community generally had a sense of humour though, and i dont think the site is very malicious itself. Besides - whats wrong with optimising to get the most power out of your machine? I call that efficiency. ;) I guess gentoo is out there in the way that its source based rather then binary-package based (the sense of who the hell would compile their entire OS from source and wait hours for it thing). I also noticed that there is some animosity between the debian and gentoo camps, anyone got any clue why? I generally dont discriminate against others (providing they are using a Unix based OS =P ) ) . Why? have you been descriminated against? I'll sometimes pick up on it when I'm getting support from non-Gentoo people: I wonder if this would happen with Red Hat? I don't know Gentoo. I haven't had any problems with the stock Apache. All reasonable things to say, sure, but they came with discriminatory undertones if you ask. Gentoo, to me, is about out with the old and in with the new. When you do that you end up with all kinds of benefits of which some are maximized performance, fine control, and minimal maintenance requirements. But big progressive moves are bound to be a bit bumpy at times. The current Apache layout reorganization in Gentoo is a perfect example of this. It's a balance between conservatism and progressiveness. Too much conservatism and you build another RedHat/SuSe/Mandrake. Too little and you have Apache layout compatibility problems. This slow down/speed up is very much like evolution, politics, and a million other things in life. - Grant -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 03:13:37PM -0700, Grant wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. I've had people roll their eyes when I tell them I use Gentoo and build systems from source. I just roll my eyes back, tell them I've administered Red Hat, SuSE, Debian, and Free and OpenBSD. Next, I tell them the reason I use Gentoo is because it's so easy to keep updated, especially as compared to RPM-based distros. If they don't believe me, then I do a system update in front of them. Cheers, Dennis -- Dennis Soper[EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems Administrator Facilities Services-- The University of Oregon 1276 University of Oregon phone: 541-346-2286 Eugene, OR 97403 fax:541-346-2299 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Thu, 19 May 2005 11:47:45 +1200 Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Most of it is pretty good natured though, and there are a good number | of converts. I think like all proselyting, it pays to be balanced in | your advocacy and then people will respect you. OTOH try and sell | gentoo, or any other distro, as the ultimate solution for everyone and | people will quite rightly regard you as a nutter. Nutter? Naah. Liability? Yes. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpIKEem8NTWe.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Grant wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. - Grant Like a lot of the fellow repliers, I tried Suse, Red Hat, and used Mandrake for a long time. What really gets my goat is the implied connection with users coming from Mandrake to Gentoo. Some folks out in the wild think that mostly ex-Drakers are Gentoo-ricers. How did that connection start? Like a fellow Gentooer said, I switched because I could finally get my programs to compile and work as the devs intended, not fooled with idiotic distro-specific patches that always broke stuff. Lastly, although I run a ~x86 machine and sometime things break, I love portage and think that is the best way to manage a Linux system period. -- Edward A Mihalow Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Linux! Registered Linux User#225662 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
A discussion about enterprise linux distros came up, and my old boss (who is a complete idiot) turned and looked at me and said And Gentoo will *never* be one of those distributions.. before going back to his conversation. Nice description. You make me want to punch that guy in the face. - Grant -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
050518 Grant wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? no, except occasionally on Gentoo mailing-lists (grin). I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? Gentoo is different, but not out there, if i understand what you mean. It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. i've been a bit surprised by how far U Toronto people have been tolerant when i've told them i don't do Windows: i use Linux. yes, Canada is a big place with room for everyone, if you don't hurt others, but these are people who use M$ out of habit or without thinking. Gentoo is for people who want to have a real 'My Computer', not something owned by the guy in Redmond or NC or some place. i don't even do the approved 'emerge world' in maintaining my system i rely on a home-made list of packages i've installed, but i have real control over what is on my hard drive. i don't have to wait 6 mth for the new version of KDE or OO , i don't have to dodge appeals for money from profit-making Mandrivel, i'm not presented with the corporate logo plastered all over my screen, i don't have someone else doing my thinking for me. Gentoo is not for the masses, but it is for anyone with the time to spare to manage their own computer in the way which suits them best. so definitely, thanx to the devs who make it all happen (big smile). -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
At the place where I work, there are a couple of blokes that use linux too, when I told them that I use Gentoo and even that it is by far the best distro I have used IMHO, they immediately said something like this: What? you use Gentoo? Oh, so you use it just because you want to compile the kernel yourself! Just because *you can do it*!!! And gave me that look of amusement... Of course it is sad to see that there is ignorance even among some linux users too. What they don't realize is that in my relatively short experience in the light side I have used several distros before Gentoo: Mandrake, Debian and Slackware. Gentoo has some kind of reputation... Regards, -AR On 5/18/05, Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. - Grant -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- If the truth can't set you free, a lie will save you. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Grant wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. - Grant I've only done the discriminating based on other people's non use of Gentoo. :-) Actually mentioning Gentoo was a good way of getting past the so have you ever heard of Linux conversations I ran into last time I went to a LUG. I will admit that this particular LUG was populated by some serious dyed in the wool longhair-ed hippie types complete with oddball PhD's in dead languages. Having had a haircut that month it was apparently impossible that I actually already used Linux so I was offered a live CD, numerous times, by the same people. It finally stopped when I said: Thanks for the Ubuntu disk, but I use Gentoo. kashani -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Grant wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. Nah, my friend was talking about how iPods suck. (I disagree, BTW, plus he hates Macs. Even the new dual-G5 Power Macs.) He said that once you copy your files to it, then it automatically synchs with iTunes, so you can't just use it like a hard drive and copy off the music due to the FairPlay DRM. My other iBook, iTunes and iPod-owning friend said he was right. Then I mentioned that it could be mounted under Linux as a hard drive to bypass the FairPlay DRM. I used the disclaimer that I've only heard about it being done, since I don't have an iPod. He asked what version of Linux, and when I said Gentoo, he said good man. I almost felt like adding kernel version 2.6.11-gentoo-r9, but I guess that was enough to make his day. And mine, too. Plus it's hard to beat emerge -u world. It's better than Mac OS's Software Update (which doesn't always get updates for every app), and world beyond Windows Update plus the Nero auto-updater, the Java VM auto-updater, my DVD burner's firmware auto-updater, my DVD burner's software auto-updater, my auto-updaters' auto-updaters. (OK, so I made that last one up, but it could happen.) -- Colin -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
He said that once you copy your files to it, then it automatically synchs with iTunes, so you can't just use it like a hard drive and copy off the music due to the FairPlay DRM. My other iBook, iTunes and iPod-owning friend said he was right. Bollocks. I actually own an iPod (40GB, 4th gen, USB2.0), and there's no such limitation that I've run into... and I've got just over 4000 tracks on it... but now I'm getting distracted. I've run into some discrimination, but I typically recommend SuSE for the less hardcore folks that ask for suggestions: it's less annoying to use than RedHat (when RedHat actually had a non-enterprise version), less unstable than FC, and just all-around easier to install/maintain than Slackware (which is what I actually started with... sometime around 3.0, IIRC - it's been a long time...) I've been using Gentoo since I first heard about it, and immediately turned it into my full-time desktop OS. These days, I have Windows around for when I want to play a game without trying to convince Cedega to run properly, or when I have to do something for work, which usually only happens about once a week. I've also got a web/mail/ssh/whatever server that's running Gentoo as well, and I've managed to physically swap machines close to half-a-dozen times over the years without having more than a few hours' downtime - not enough to cause my mail to bounce, but enough that you'd notice if you were paying attention. shrug I just ignore the folks who have a better-than-thou attitude since it's really all about choice - and I try to make that clear to them instead of trying to push Gentoo on everyone. Gentoo isn't for everyone, just like action movies aren't for everyone: some people just like dramatic films. There's really no accounting for taste, though. ;) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 08:58:58PM -0500, kashani wrote: Grant wrote: I've only done the discriminating based on other people's non use of Gentoo. :-) I don't really care what people run, so long as it makes sense for their environment. I have machines running NeXTstep and GNU/Hurd, but, obviously, I don't put them in production environments. Same goes with Gentoo. I use it on personal machines only. Actually mentioning Gentoo was a good way of getting past the so have you ever heard of Linux conversations I ran into last time I went to a LUG. I will admit that this particular LUG was populated by some serious dyed in the wool longhair-ed hippie types complete with oddball PhD's in dead languages. Having had a haircut that month it was apparently impossible that I actually already used Linux so I was offered a live CD, numerous times, by the same people. It finally stopped when I said: Thanks for the Ubuntu disk, but I use Gentoo. Ubuntu users have usurped Gentoo users for most pushy and annoying. That said, it's a very nicely put together release of Debian Unstable, as are Xandros, Progeny, etc. I would happily start a new user on it, as opposed to Novelldrake, Fedora, etc. etc. For production servers, however, I still stick to things with somewhat better QA -- NetBSD, Debian Stable. I had been big on FreeBSD, but FreeBSD 5 is just horrid. -- S. Bergeron, [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I don't need a gmail invite, thanks. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
I get bombed all the time in IRC and called your one of those gentoo users and usually kicked and banned just for saying i use gentoo. Doesnt matter to me I dont care what people use as long as it isnt windoze. Do and use what makes you happy as long as it isnt windows!! On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 22:34 -0400, S. Bergeron wrote: On Wed, May 18, 2005 at 08:58:58PM -0500, kashani wrote: Grant wrote: I've only done the discriminating based on other people's non use of Gentoo. :-) I don't really care what people run, so long as it makes sense for their environment. I have machines running NeXTstep and GNU/Hurd, but, obviously, I don't put them in production environments. Same goes with Gentoo. I use it on personal machines only. Actually mentioning Gentoo was a good way of getting past the so have you ever heard of Linux conversations I ran into last time I went to a LUG. I will admit that this particular LUG was populated by some serious dyed in the wool longhair-ed hippie types complete with oddball PhD's in dead languages. Having had a haircut that month it was apparently impossible that I actually already used Linux so I was offered a live CD, numerous times, by the same people. It finally stopped when I said: Thanks for the Ubuntu disk, but I use Gentoo. Ubuntu users have usurped Gentoo users for most pushy and annoying. That said, it's a very nicely put together release of Debian Unstable, as are Xandros, Progeny, etc. I would happily start a new user on it, as opposed to Novelldrake, Fedora, etc. etc. For production servers, however, I still stick to things with somewhat better QA -- NetBSD, Debian Stable. I had been big on FreeBSD, but FreeBSD 5 is just horrid. -- S. Bergeron, [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I don't need a gmail invite, thanks. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Wed, 18 May 2005, Jonathan Nichols wrote: A discussion about enterprise linux distros came up, and my old boss (who is a complete idiot) turned and looked at me and said And Gentoo will *never* be one of those distributions.. before going back to his conversation. The Gentoo servers were in place long before this guy started. He went on crowing about how we needed Enterprise level support yadda yadda. I am a programmer and a systems administrator who has been using Linux since it started (on a 486DX PC!). I was a long-time RedHat user and dabbled in Debian and a few other distros. Your comments about enterprise support is the reason why people stick with bad choices. They say noone ever got fired for picking Micro$soft. My response to that is: Why the hell not?!. After losing free RH updates I started looking around for something better, something easier to maintain, something NOT based on RPM (I was already tired of hand maintaining various packages from tarballs on RH boxes). Needless to say, I have been converting all of my servers to Gentoo (I work for an ISP so these servers are in production in an enterprise-like environment). I have great performance, reliability and simple updates - all of the things that are important to enterprise customers. A few months ago I ran into a friend who I worked with several years back. I asked him how his servers were doing. I was laughing in my head when he told me, Oh, I switched them all to Gentoo. ;-) -- Aj. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
On Wed, 18 May 2005, Colin wrote: Nah, my friend was talking about how iPods suck. (I disagree, BTW, plus he hates Macs. Even the new dual-G5 Power Macs.) He said that once you copy your files to it, then it automatically synchs with iTunes, so you can't just use it like a hard drive Sure you can - you just enable disk mode in the iTunes preferences... -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
A. Khattri wrote: On Wed, 18 May 2005, Colin wrote: Nah, my friend was talking about how iPods suck. (I disagree, BTW, plus he hates Macs. Even the new dual-G5 Power Macs.) He said that once you copy your files to it, then it automatically synchs with iTunes, so you can't just use it like a hard drive Sure you can - you just enable disk mode in the iTunes preferences... Don't say that! I'm making Gentoo look cool! -- Colin -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Grant wrote: A discussion about enterprise linux distros came up, and my old boss (who is a complete idiot) turned and looked at me and said And Gentoo will *never* be one of those distributions.. before going back to his conversation. Nice description. You make me want to punch that guy in the face. - Grant Dude, how do you think that *I* felt. I had to work with this idiot, too. *sigh* -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Nah, my friend was talking about how iPods suck. (I disagree, BTW, plus he hates Macs. Even the new dual-G5 Power Macs.) He said that once you copy your files to it, then it automatically synchs with iTunes, so you can't just use it like a hard drive and copy off the music due to the FairPlay DRM. My other iBook, iTunes and iPod-owning friend said he was right. OT, but they're totally and cluelessly incorrect. :) -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo discrimination
Bit of a pet peeve here: making things look easier than they really are. I do quite a bit of emerging of packages that aren't stable yet. I have an installation of PHP 5 that, if upgraded from its current version (mod_php-5.0.3-r1) would cause an update of Apache to an unstable version, which would in turn cause portage to try to satisfy dependencies of Apache that include another unstable package. emerge -u world fails on this and other packages. If a Gentoo system uses entirely stable packages, upgrades are a simple command away. But then you have to wait hours, even days, for much of the system to be recompiled. It's more than most users would tolerate. There are reasons many roll their eyes when they see someone spend hours on a KDE install. Gentoo is an excellent distro, with one of the most comprehensive repositories of packages of any Linux distribution. It is powerful and excellently constructed. But to say maintenance and upgrading is easy is like saying Windows is as suitable as Unix/Linux in a server environment. It's just not true and realistic. -Pingveno Ryan Viljoen wrote: Hahah I get batted by my friends regularly about using Gentoo and not Suse and such. Apparently it requires to much constructive work to keep it running or get it running for that matter but then they dont understand anything about keeping your system uptodate with and emerge --synce emerge --world do they?! I wont even get onto my Windows using friends though they just shake their heads. I suppose each person is a zealot for their favourite distro heck I am for Gentoo, I guess thats just linux users for you :/ Cheers Rav On 5/19/05, Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Out of curiosity, who here would say they have experienced any type of emotional discrimination because they use Gentoo? I find this in correspondence with other Linux people sometimes. Is Gentoo far enough out there to warrant this type of attitude? It seems like these people are conservatives unwilling to roll with the changes to me. - Grant -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- Linux User #340304 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
