Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 14, 2008 1:19 AM, b.n. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me explain. You began complaining because the Gentoo live cd *exists*, but it is out of date and didn't support your hardware. It's a reasonable complain in the assumption you need the Gentoo cd (and you can't do with anything else): you of course want your hardware to be supported by the medium installation. Now, imagine the official Gentoo live cd *never existed*. You probably just would have picked up some cd you knew supported your system (say, latest Ubuntu) and installed using that. No complaining, no discussions, everyone happy. You are right. See? Having the Gentoo live cd *was wrong from the beginning*. It put another fairly complex piece of software to support on developer shoulders, offered vanishingly little benefit, and when it fails it immediately puts blame on Gentoo: hey this cd doesn't support my hardware, wtf that can offset potential users. Still right. The reason other distro have complex live cds for installing is that they *need that*. Gentoo does not need this additional complexity. Nevertheless a live cd there was, but as you experienced, it's more the trouble it causes than that it solves. I disagree. Gentoo needs it too. Because *THE* point that made me love Gentoo *in the FIRST second*, was: GOD !!! look at this wonderful handbook look at that so didactic installation way !!! Let's boot the minimal CD and burn a full LiveCD ! And I was so happy to get my minimal/live CD's that I think Yeah, a very nice distro, taking your hand from the beginning to bring knowledge step-by-step, providing all that you need... software and amazing doc. And not having a live cd on which Gentoo is obliged to depend is not a bug: sir, it's a feature! The live cd didn't support my Macbook Pro networking. Well, fine: Kubuntu did. I had a Kubuntu 7.10 cd around, booted from that, no hassle at all. Other distros have to support their own live cd, and if it fails, installation is impossible. With Gentoo, we have the full monty of live cds to choose within. It's like a distro with infinite installers. Yes. It is a feature. As well as the possibility to use minimal/live CD. Look at http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ and read the first task requiring staff: 1 accessibilityRequested on November 19, 2006 by William Hubbs: Gentoo's accessibility project is in need of help with things such as ebuild maintenance, kernel hacking, and *LiveCD creation*. We're also in need of someone to assist with bug solving. also at the so wonderful handbook, step 2. Choosing the Right Installation Medium... The feature is *you can* start from any booted linux to setup your Gentoo kernel. Right. But not there is no Gentoo liveCD and it is what we want. You are free to create a live cd for Gentoo install, but you're doing nothing new nor particularly useful. You'll just add one to the list. Why? Because I want. It is sufficient for me. Further details ? I would like to bring the excitation to burn a Gentoo CD to noobs and people that are pleased to get their CD from Gentoo world. And I want a liveCD to make live demo in my linux promotional association, to show how easy emerge is, how very nicely the rc are handled (not based on naming as debian does) and so on... Gal' -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Galevsky ha scritto: The reason other distro have complex live cds for installing is that they *need that*. Gentoo does not need this additional complexity. Nevertheless a live cd there was, but as you experienced, it's more the trouble it causes than that it solves. I disagree. Gentoo needs it too. Because *THE* point that made me love Gentoo *in the FIRST second*, was: GOD !!! look at this wonderful handbook look at that so didactic installation way !!! Let's boot the minimal CD and burn a full LiveCD ! What would have been different with: GOD !!! look at this wonderful handbook look at that so didactic installation way !!! Let's boot a live CD and start installing! I'm extremly dense probably, since I really don't get it. And I was so happy to get my minimal/live CD's that I think Yeah, a very nice distro, taking your hand from the beginning to bring knowledge step-by-step, providing all that you need... software and amazing doc. Again, what would have been different in your happiness with another cd? Yes. It is a feature. As well as the possibility to use minimal/live CD. Look at http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ and read the first task requiring staff: 1 accessibilityRequested on November 19, 2006 by William Hubbs: Gentoo's accessibility project is in need of help with things such as ebuild maintenance, kernel hacking, and *LiveCD creation*. We're also in need of someone to assist with bug solving. So, without the live cd, the accessibility project would have a thing less to solve. I can't see how having more troubles and no advantage is a positive thing, but again: I'm probably extremly dense. Because I want. It is sufficient for me. Further details ? I would like to bring the excitation to burn a Gentoo CD to noobs and people that are pleased to get their CD from Gentoo world. We're excited by different things :) And I want a liveCD to make live demo in my linux promotional association, to show how easy emerge is, how very nicely the rc are handled (not based on naming as debian does) and so on... Beautiful, but this has nothing to do with the need of a gentoo install cd. However a Gentoo demo cd is a nice project. Happy hacking, anyway! m. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 14, 2008 5:54 PM, b.n. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're excited by different things :) No doubt :) Gal' -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
· Norman Rieß [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Still no complaints about your opinion from my side ;-). *G* In short. An outdated InstallCD is bad and no InstallCD at all is bad, too. I agree that an outdated Install CD is bad. But I disagree, that no Install CD at all is bad. I think it's not bad. Michael Schmarck -- Computer Science is the only discipline in which we view adding a new wing to a building as being maintenance -- Jim Horning -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Michael Schmarck schrieb: · Norman Rieß [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Still no complaints about your opinion from my side ;-). *G* In short. An outdated InstallCD is bad and no InstallCD at all is bad, too. I agree that an outdated Install CD is bad. But I disagree, that no Install CD at all is bad. I think it's not bad. Michael Schmarck Ok, i'm fine with that.
[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
· Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:53:48 +0100, Michael Schmarck wrote: You also need the handbook, a portage snapshot and a stage tarball. How many live CDs provide these? None. But the portage snapshot is best fetched from the web anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Same with the handbook, as it may contain (theoritcal) up-to-the minute corrections. So, the portage snapshot and handbook don't have to on the Live CD. No, but it's a lot easier if they are when doing a networkless install. This cannot be done, as the install CD has to be fetched over network anyway. At that time, the portage snapshot and handbook can be downloaded as well. Michael Schmarck -- Mal: Kaylee's been missing you something fierce. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:20:04 +0100, Michael Schmarck wrote: This cannot be done, as the install CD has to be fetched over network anyway. At that time, the portage snapshot and handbook can be downloaded as well. I've already covered that in a previous reply to you. -- Neil Bothwick Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
· Neil Bothwick [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:00:20 +0100, Michael Schmarck wrote: It is a lot more comfortable for the first-time installer. Why's that? Because a first-time installer benefits from the confidence given by using an official install disc. I don't understand that. What confidence? To install Gentoo, you need a way to partition your storage, create filesystems and chroot. That can easily be done by any live CD. It also allows you to install without a network connection if you have a single CD containing the handbook, tools, portage snapshot and stage files. How do you get that stuff (the Install CD)? By downloading? Why can't you download the handbook, snapshot and stage tar ball as well at that time? And what tools are you talking about? fdisk? chroot? Everything needed can be obtained by downloading one ISO image and burning it to CD. Well. There's no need for extra trips back the the netted computer to fetch things you discover you need after reading the handbook, or partway through the install. The same argument can be held against the install CD as well. I disagree. Maybe it's a bonus if it's offered, but then it always has to be up-to-date. And that, obviously, cannot be done right now. So I'd rather say, that it would be better, if there were no install CD at all. But it can be done. It's not worth the effort, though, as far as I'm concerned. Michael Schmarck -- But what we need to know is, do people want nasally-insertable computers? -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:24:52 +0100, Michael Schmarck wrote: Because a first-time installer benefits from the confidence given by using an official install disc. I don't understand that. What confidence? To install Gentoo, you need a way to partition your storage, create filesystems and chroot. That can easily be done by any live CD. Assuming you know what you are doing. If you've ever tried to help a number of less confident users through it, you'd know what I mean. While I don't disagree that a Gentoo live CD is absolutely necessary, you seem to be taking the argument further, saying that Gentoo should not have its own live CD. Why? -- Neil Bothwick Is it a bigger crime to rob a bank or to open one? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Neil Bothwick wrote: Assuming you know what you are doing. If you've ever tried to help a number of less confident users through it, you'd know what I mean. While I don't disagree that a Gentoo live CD is absolutely necessary, you seem to be taking the argument further, saying that Gentoo should not have its own live CD. Why? Indeed, while as I've posted earlier in the list that users should free their mind, and not be too dependent on the Gentoo's LiveCD, I do see the value in users trying to contribute to the project by making a LiveCD, it's fairly beneficial to Gentoo: * Devs can still focus on the tree, on portage itself and/or other aspects of gentoo * This user developed CD will indeed open up more possibilities and give others more choice, without affecting the Gentoo magic touch if handled correctly. There are a few drawbacks and concerns, although it's much too early for some of them to become real concerns * QA. It's quite typical that if this CD fails in some rare cases, users will blame Gentoo * Automated installer or not, if there's this installer, how to balance between customization and freedom, I'm sure we all remember the auto partition option of the red hat CDs, and the headache it caused :D * Release cycle? * How much should be included on the CD? if we were to cater networkingless installation, a CD will only be enough for a minimal system. The lists above are by no means complete, but hopefully this thread sparks some ideas and interesting discussions in the list, which I, for one, have missed :) - -- Joe - -- A computer scientist is someone who, when told go to hell, considers the go to harmful rather than the destination. GnuPG Key: 0xB14661D9 GnuPG FP: DE08 57AE A1AD 620C 02AA CCDD 611B 63AC B146 61D9 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHinObYRtjrLFGYdkRAomAAJwMrBTH5IQ08UoY309N1VIJ8IyH0gCg6UpD sQ1d0Gc1Eq0ROGqSDYMypHI= =nLmA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 13, 2008 8:24 PM, Michael Schmarck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I'd rather say, that it would be better, if there were no install CD at all. But it can be done. It's not worth the effort, though, as far as I'm concerned. Since your are not concerned about releasing them, you should find no issue to let others do it. It is the community spirit, when folks add a new way to do something, just enlarging the panel of possibilities without negative impact on existing solutions, even if it doesn't suit your own needs, since you still have the possibility to setup your system by the older way, there is no reason to prevent motivated people from implementing their alternative solution. For PXE, GRML as well as gentoo minimal cd installations, what is mostly important is freedom to choose :) Gal' -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Galevsky ha scritto: On Jan 13, 2008 8:24 PM, Michael Schmarck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I'd rather say, that it would be better, if there were no install CD at all. But it can be done. It's not worth the effort, though, as far as I'm concerned. Since your are not concerned about releasing them, you should find no issue to let others do it. It is the community spirit, when folks add a new way to do something, just enlarging the panel of possibilities without negative impact on existing solutions, even if it doesn't suit your own needs, since you still have the possibility to setup your system by the older way, there is no reason to prevent motivated people from implementing their alternative solution. Of course there is no reason to prevent people to implement new solutions. New solutions are always welcome: this is what open source is for. :) However, I personally think it's a waste of time, and it could possibly put unnecessary blame on Gentoo. And you are the living proof of it. Let me explain. You began complaining because the Gentoo live cd *exists*, but it is out of date and didn't support your hardware. It's a reasonable complain in the assumption you need the Gentoo cd (and you can't do with anything else): you of course want your hardware to be supported by the medium installation. Now, imagine the official Gentoo live cd *never existed*. You probably just would have picked up some cd you knew supported your system (say, latest Ubuntu) and installed using that. No complaining, no discussions, everyone happy. See? Having the Gentoo live cd *was wrong from the beginning*. It put another fairly complex piece of software to support on developer shoulders, offered vanishingly little benefit, and when it fails it immediately puts blame on Gentoo: hey this cd doesn't support my hardware, wtf that can offset potential users. The reason other distro have complex live cds for installing is that they *need that*. Gentoo does not need this additional complexity. Nevertheless a live cd there was, but as you experienced, it's more the trouble it causes than that it solves. And not having a live cd on which Gentoo is obliged to depend is not a bug: sir, it's a feature! The live cd didn't support my Macbook Pro networking. Well, fine: Kubuntu did. I had a Kubuntu 7.10 cd around, booted from that, no hassle at all. Other distros have to support their own live cd, and if it fails, installation is impossible. With Gentoo, we have the full monty of live cds to choose within. It's like a distro with infinite installers. You are free to create a live cd for Gentoo install, but you're doing nothing new nor particularly useful. You'll just add one to the list. Why? m. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
