Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
On Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:19:50 -0400, Alan Grimes wrote: I had to use my windows 7 machine to get the photo off my camera because digikam does not compile. =| What's wrong with putting the camera in mass storage mode, or putting it's memory card into your computer? Compiling DigiKam to copy one file brings new meaning to overkill. -- Neil Bothwick Geordi, show these children the antimatter - Picard pgpiKgeejj1yl.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
On 25/08/2015 23:33, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:19:50 -0400, Alan Grimes wrote: I had to use my windows 7 machine to get the photo off my camera because digikam does not compile. =| What's wrong with putting the camera in mass storage mode, or putting it's memory card into your computer? Compiling DigiKam to copy one file brings new meaning to overkill. I believe that honour goes to running wubi under wine on an Ubuntu guest VM in VBox/VMWare/KVM, running on an Ubuntu host. What do you get when you make it through that labyrinth? Why, it installs Ubuntu of course! -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
Mick wrote: PS. Noisy PSUs are nothing new. The noise is can be caused by the capacitors, or the coils. Although annoying it does not necessarily mean that there is an electrical problem with the components. If the fan is rattling, then a drop of oil on its bearing should soon put a stop to this. As Dale mentioned, a stalled fan will not help the longevity of the remaining components. :-) This is true, they do sometimes make noise. What got my attention is that it stopped. Usually if one makes noise, it will make it for the remainder of its life cycle unless something changes, such has adding additional load which may change a frequency. If nothing changes and it stops making that noise, then it likely stopped working as well. I've seen capacitors go bad and it not blow anything else out or stop the rest of the circuit from working. It all depends on how it is used in the circuit. Most likely in a case like this, if the capacitor just went open circuit, the rest of the circuit will continue to work but the capacitor is no longer doing its job of filtering out the noise and ripple. Still, the mention that it stopped is what got my attention. That doesn't sound good, pardon the pun. ;-) Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
On Sunday 23 Aug 2015 01:11:03 Fernando Rodriguez wrote: On Saturday, August 22, 2015 3:19:50 PM Alan Grimes wrote: Isn't this the filthiest oscilloscope u've seen recently? The only bare metal contact that I could safely use to get a reading off was a +12v line on a spare PCI-E gpu plug. The ground reference is the chassis. You can see the machine's settings in the photo clearly enough. The waveform is fairly constant, it stays in this mode most of the time but sometimes goes into a low ripple mode where the ripple falls to +/- 20mv and holds tight. The scaling indicates the upward spikes are around 0.120 volts and the downward spikes are about 0.22 volts. This __SHOULD__ be within the input tolerances of the motherboard's regulators. Regulators don't filter noise, they introduce it. Capacitors do that as somebody pointed on the other thread. So if you're on a tight budget and you have an electronics surplus store nearby you can replace all the capacitors on your mobo and PSU (except the big bulky ones on the PSU) for about $3. It is quite likely that only the secondary circuit on the PSU needs to have its electrolytic capacitors replaced. We're talking of anything between one to half a dozen of capacitors. In all likelihood less than a $1 to $3. If any are even slightly domed I'd start with those and spend no more than a few cents. Primary circuit ceramic capacitors (transient protection) could have been affected if the PSU was submitted to high surges in the mains supply. I had one go bad on me after sheet lightning hit the area once. Its replacement along with a resistor fixed the PSU without any further problems and to much of my surprise - I thought it was a gonner! Domed capacitors on the MoBo is a different story. Quite likely other components would have been affected and many of them are surface mounted. You'll need a magnifying glass and steady hands for those. It is not something I would attempt in haste, as it is easy to damage more components than what you fix on a MoBo. YMMV. PS. Noisy PSUs are nothing new. The noise is can be caused by the capacitors, or the coils. Although annoying it does not necessarily mean that there is an electrical problem with the components. If the fan is rattling, then a drop of oil on its bearing should soon put a stop to this. As Dale mentioned, a stalled fan will not help the longevity of the remaining components. :-) -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
On 23/08/2015 22:24, Fernando Rodriguez wrote: On Sunday, August 23, 2015 12:14:58 PM Mick wrote: On Sunday 23 Aug 2015 01:11:03 Fernando Rodriguez wrote: On Saturday, August 22, 2015 3:19:50 PM Alan Grimes wrote: Isn't this the filthiest oscilloscope u've seen recently? The only bare metal contact that I could safely use to get a reading off was a +12v line on a spare PCI-E gpu plug. The ground reference is the chassis. You can see the machine's settings in the photo clearly enough. The waveform is fairly constant, it stays in this mode most of the time but sometimes goes into a low ripple mode where the ripple falls to +/- 20mv and holds tight. The scaling indicates the upward spikes are around 0.120 volts and the downward spikes are about 0.22 volts. This __SHOULD__ be within the input tolerances of the motherboard's regulators. Regulators don't filter noise, they introduce it. Capacitors do that as somebody pointed on the other thread. So if you're on a tight budget and you have an electronics surplus store nearby you can replace all the capacitors on your mobo and PSU (except the big bulky ones on the PSU) for about $3. It is quite likely that only the secondary circuit on the PSU needs to have its electrolytic capacitors replaced. We're talking of anything between one to half a dozen of capacitors. In all likelihood less than a $1 to $3. If any are even slightly domed I'd start with those and spend no more than a few cents. Primary circuit ceramic capacitors (transient protection) could have been affected if the PSU was submitted to high surges in the mains supply. I had one go bad on me after sheet lightning hit the area once. Its replacement along with a resistor fixed the PSU without any further problems and to much of my surprise - I thought it was a gonner! Domed capacitors on the MoBo is a different story. Quite likely other components would have been affected and many of them are surface mounted. You'll need a magnifying glass and steady hands for those. It is not something I would attempt in haste, as it is easy to damage more components than what you fix on a MoBo. YMMV. I don't think it's very likely to have damanged something else if it's just noise, but then again I'm not an electronics engineer, this is just a hobby of mine so you may be right. Though I can tell you that I have gotten a few damaged boards to work like new by just replacing the electrolitic caps. That's quite normal - electrolytic caps are the only electronic components that can be considered to wear out. Apart from batteries of course :-) Getting the caps off modern motherboards is a real PITA though - surface mount caps need semi-specialized equipment: a proper soldering iron or hot air pencil with a very fine tip, desolder braid, a magnifier and a very steady hand PS. Noisy PSUs are nothing new. The noise is can be caused by the capacitors, or the coils. Although annoying it does not necessarily mean that there is an electrical problem with the components. If the fan is rattling, then a drop of oil on its bearing should soon put a stop to this. As Dale mentioned, a stalled fan will not help the longevity of the remaining components. :-) I recall an ancient TV from the mid '70s (Blaupunkt) that would sometimes develop a rattle in one of the drive circuit coils. Damn thing would sound like a hive of bees inside the cabinet! Agreed. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
On Sunday, August 23, 2015 12:14:58 PM Mick wrote: On Sunday 23 Aug 2015 01:11:03 Fernando Rodriguez wrote: On Saturday, August 22, 2015 3:19:50 PM Alan Grimes wrote: Isn't this the filthiest oscilloscope u've seen recently? The only bare metal contact that I could safely use to get a reading off was a +12v line on a spare PCI-E gpu plug. The ground reference is the chassis. You can see the machine's settings in the photo clearly enough. The waveform is fairly constant, it stays in this mode most of the time but sometimes goes into a low ripple mode where the ripple falls to +/- 20mv and holds tight. The scaling indicates the upward spikes are around 0.120 volts and the downward spikes are about 0.22 volts. This __SHOULD__ be within the input tolerances of the motherboard's regulators. Regulators don't filter noise, they introduce it. Capacitors do that as somebody pointed on the other thread. So if you're on a tight budget and you have an electronics surplus store nearby you can replace all the capacitors on your mobo and PSU (except the big bulky ones on the PSU) for about $3. It is quite likely that only the secondary circuit on the PSU needs to have its electrolytic capacitors replaced. We're talking of anything between one to half a dozen of capacitors. In all likelihood less than a $1 to $3. If any are even slightly domed I'd start with those and spend no more than a few cents. Primary circuit ceramic capacitors (transient protection) could have been affected if the PSU was submitted to high surges in the mains supply. I had one go bad on me after sheet lightning hit the area once. Its replacement along with a resistor fixed the PSU without any further problems and to much of my surprise - I thought it was a gonner! Domed capacitors on the MoBo is a different story. Quite likely other components would have been affected and many of them are surface mounted. You'll need a magnifying glass and steady hands for those. It is not something I would attempt in haste, as it is easy to damage more components than what you fix on a MoBo. YMMV. I don't think it's very likely to have damanged something else if it's just noise, but then again I'm not an electronics engineer, this is just a hobby of mine so you may be right. Though I can tell you that I have gotten a few damaged boards to work like new by just replacing the electrolitic caps. PS. Noisy PSUs are nothing new. The noise is can be caused by the capacitors, or the coils. Although annoying it does not necessarily mean that there is an electrical problem with the components. If the fan is rattling, then a drop of oil on its bearing should soon put a stop to this. As Dale mentioned, a stalled fan will not help the longevity of the remaining components. :-) Agreed. -- Fernando Rodriguez
Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
On Sunday, August 23, 2015 10:34:20 PM Alan McKinnon wrote: On 23/08/2015 22:24, Fernando Rodriguez wrote: On Sunday, August 23, 2015 12:14:58 PM Mick wrote: On Sunday 23 Aug 2015 01:11:03 Fernando Rodriguez wrote: On Saturday, August 22, 2015 3:19:50 PM Alan Grimes wrote: Isn't this the filthiest oscilloscope u've seen recently? The only bare metal contact that I could safely use to get a reading off was a +12v line on a spare PCI-E gpu plug. The ground reference is the chassis. You can see the machine's settings in the photo clearly enough. The waveform is fairly constant, it stays in this mode most of the time but sometimes goes into a low ripple mode where the ripple falls to +/- 20mv and holds tight. The scaling indicates the upward spikes are around 0.120 volts and the downward spikes are about 0.22 volts. This __SHOULD__ be within the input tolerances of the motherboard's regulators. Regulators don't filter noise, they introduce it. Capacitors do that as somebody pointed on the other thread. So if you're on a tight budget and you have an electronics surplus store nearby you can replace all the capacitors on your mobo and PSU (except the big bulky ones on the PSU) for about $3. It is quite likely that only the secondary circuit on the PSU needs to have its electrolytic capacitors replaced. We're talking of anything between one to half a dozen of capacitors. In all likelihood less than a $1 to $3. If any are even slightly domed I'd start with those and spend no more than a few cents. Primary circuit ceramic capacitors (transient protection) could have been affected if the PSU was submitted to high surges in the mains supply. I had one go bad on me after sheet lightning hit the area once. Its replacement along with a resistor fixed the PSU without any further problems and to much of my surprise - I thought it was a gonner! Domed capacitors on the MoBo is a different story. Quite likely other components would have been affected and many of them are surface mounted. You'll need a magnifying glass and steady hands for those. It is not something I would attempt in haste, as it is easy to damage more components than what you fix on a MoBo. YMMV. I don't think it's very likely to have damanged something else if it's just noise, but then again I'm not an electronics engineer, this is just a hobby of mine so you may be right. Though I can tell you that I have gotten a few damaged boards to work like new by just replacing the electrolitic caps. That's quite normal - electrolytic caps are the only electronic components that can be considered to wear out. Apart from batteries of course :-) Getting the caps off modern motherboards is a real PITA though - surface mount caps need semi-specialized equipment: a proper soldering iron or hot air pencil with a very fine tip, desolder braid, a magnifier and a very steady hand For the tiny SMT ones I usually use an worn out iron tip (cause it may get plastic on it), heat the whole thing up and push it aside if there's room, then pull them off with twizzers and a little bit for force, clean up the contacts with braid. If they're many I use solder paste and an oven the get new ones on. But usually there's still a few through hole electrolytics (at least on boards old enough to be failing) and those are the ones that fail. When they're SMT it's usually a relatively big one or an SMT can and I only seen those fail on homemade or dev boards when I do something stupid. For the canned ones I heat the can up until it comes off. The real PITA with those is that you usually don't find those at a local store. PS. Noisy PSUs are nothing new. The noise is can be caused by the capacitors, or the coils. Although annoying it does not necessarily mean that there is an electrical problem with the components. If the fan is rattling, then a drop of oil on its bearing should soon put a stop to this. As Dale mentioned, a stalled fan will not help the longevity of the remaining components. :-) I recall an ancient TV from the mid '70s (Blaupunkt) that would sometimes develop a rattle in one of the drive circuit coils. Damn thing would sound like a hive of bees inside the cabinet! -- Fernando Rodriguez
Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
On Saturday, August 22, 2015 3:19:50 PM Alan Grimes wrote: Isn't this the filthiest oscilloscope u've seen recently? The only bare metal contact that I could safely use to get a reading off was a +12v line on a spare PCI-E gpu plug. The ground reference is the chassis. You can see the machine's settings in the photo clearly enough. The waveform is fairly constant, it stays in this mode most of the time but sometimes goes into a low ripple mode where the ripple falls to +/- 20mv and holds tight. The scaling indicates the upward spikes are around 0.120 volts and the downward spikes are about 0.22 volts. This __SHOULD__ be within the input tolerances of the motherboard's regulators. Regulators don't filter noise, they introduce it. Capacitors do that as somebody pointed on the other thread. So if you're on a tight budget and you have an electronics surplus store nearby you can replace all the capacitors on your mobo and PSU (except the big bulky ones on the PSU) for about $3. I would call this PSU marginal, it absolutely does power the machine but it's noise output is a bit larger than what I would prefer. Given that i'm flat on my ass broke with a foreclosure over my head, I am powerfully inclined to continue to live with the PSU the way it is now until it is no longer possible to do so. I had to use my windows 7 machine to get the photo off my camera because digikam does not compile. =| -- Fernando Rodriguez
Re: [gentoo-user] Filthy oscilloscope picture! =P
On 22/08/2015 21:19, Alan Grimes wrote: Isn't this the filthiest oscilloscope u've seen recently? I've seen cleaner. And dirtier. The only bare metal contact that I could safely use to get a reading off was a +12v line on a spare PCI-E gpu plug. The ground reference is the chassis. You can see the machine's settings in the photo clearly enough. The waveform is fairly constant, it stays in this mode most of the time but sometimes goes into a low ripple mode where the ripple falls to +/- 20mv and holds tight. The scaling indicates the upward spikes are around 0.120 volts and the downward spikes are about 0.22 volts. This __SHOULD__ be within the input tolerances of the motherboard's regulators. I would call this PSU marginal, it absolutely does power the machine but it's noise output is a bit larger than what I would prefer. I would call that PSU on it's last legs, and highly likely to be the root cause for the recent difficulties you've posted about and possibly more too. +100mV/-200mV is excessive Given that i'm flat on my ass broke with a foreclosure over my head, I am powerfully inclined to continue to live with the PSU the way it is now until it is no longer possible to do so. Well now you put it that way, you don't have many options other than use what you've got. But do realise that the next time you run into some weird issue, that PSU is most likely what you are dealing with as root cause. I had to use my windows 7 machine to get the photo off my camera because digikam does not compile. =| -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
