Re: Major Close Down
On 5 August 2014 20:59, Frankie Higgs frankiehi...@gmail.com wrote: (If there's anyone on the list who can explain our exact legal status, I'd be grateful Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer. Do not rely on anything I say here - if you're in doubt, consult a lawyer. But I do a fair amount of contractual stuff as part of my day job. get_iplayer only downloads media from BBC-controlled sites that is already available to you from those same BBC-controlled sites. get_iplayer does not break any encryption, or circumvent any effective technological measures in order to do so. effective technological measures is defined in the EU copyright directive, and is very very roughly encryption, scrambling or similar. The BBC doesn't apply this to their iPlayer content (at least, not the content downloaded by get_iplayer). In my view the particular tool you use to download things from websites doesn't matter. What *does* matter is the permissions and rights the BBC chooses to grant to you regarding that content. As someone else said, it's their content, not yours. Being able to download content does not automatically give you any right you might care to think up. The terms of use of the BBC's websites set out what you can and cannot do with their content, and nothing that get_iplayer does violates those terms. If you violate the terms, then *you* have violated the terms, not the get_iplayer software or its many and various authors. If you're the slightest bit unsure what the BBC's terms are, then you should read them (in particular see here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/personal.shtml and here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/additional_iplayer.shtml). If you're the slightest bit unsure what they mean, then you should consult a lawyer. But the terms are pretty readable and straightforward. If you're physically outside the UK, then most of the video and some of the radio content is not available to you. get_iplayer does not circumvent the (fairly simplistic) mechanisms for preventing extra-UK access put in place by the BBC. If you /are/ outside the UK, and you can't access content using a conventional web browser and the iPlayer site, then you're probably not permitted to use that content. Neither will get_iplayer help you access it. And this list is not the place to discuss how you might circumvent such measures. If you're within the UK, then get_iplayer simply provides a mechanism to access content that you /already/ have access to, but does so in a way that suits some people better than the mechanisms the BBC directly supports. And that's pretty much it. Cheers Jon ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
Re: Major Close Down
Frankie Higgs frankiehi...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, 2014-08-05 at 16:09 +0100, Jonathan H wrote: So, let me try and get this clear in my head... Have you really just compared the deaths of millions of young men who sacrificed their lives in two world wars, to the voluntary closure of a site hosting stolen material? Don't pretend to be surprised by someone's saying My ancestors didn't fight in WWn for this, It's a very common piece of rhetoric, and in this case isn't entirely inappropriate. If, as many do, Chris views the second world war as having been fought to defend us from fascist values, then he is correct in arguing that they were fought to prevent this sort of close down. One important democratic freedom is the freedom to share culture and information. The introduction of copyright to the UK was intended to allow for easier censorship, and to prevent free culture. I'd recommend reading http://ip.cream.org for the background. What does genuinely continue to surprise me is that people continue to compare copyright violation to theft. I'm not even sure if we have the legal right to use iPlayer content in a way the BBC don't explicitly allow, despite obviously having the moral right, so I don't view what we use get_iplayer for as any different from downloading these files from a P2P site. (If there's anyone on the list who can explain our exact legal status, I'd be grateful) I'm the writer of 'beeb', a script to help get programmes using get-iplayer, available at my website. This is a quote from the beeb manual, page 17, which explains the legal situation using information from the TV-licensings own web site. --8---cut here---start-8--- You do not need a UK TV licence to use ”get-iplayer” or ”beeb”. You only need a TV licence if you are recording TV programmes as they are being shown on TV. This is from the TV licensing website - ”The law states that you need to be covered by a TV Licence if you watch or record television programmes, on any device, as they’re being shown on TV. This includes TVs, computers, mobile phones, games consoles, digital boxes and Blu-ray/DVD/VHS recorders. You don’t need a licence if you don’t use any of these devices to watch or record television pro- grammes as they’re being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch catch up services like BBC iPlayer or 4oD.” Source - http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/ how-to-tell-us-you-dont-watch-tv-top12 --8---cut here---end---8--- I hope this helps Sharon. -- A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk my git repo = https://bitbucket.org/boudiccas/dots TGmeds = http://www.tgmeds.org.uk Debian testing, fluxbox 1.3.5, emacs 24.3.92.1 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
RE: Major Close Down
Be VERY careful here. Every Media Selection page on the BBC's site includes the following line: !--This code and data form part of the BBC iPlayer content protection system. Tampering with, removal of, misuse of, or unauthorised use of this code or data constitutes circumvention of the BBC's content protection measures and may result in legal action. BBC (C) 2014.-- Note the term misuse. That is THEIR definition of misuse, not yours. It is not YOUR content - it is THEIRS. D -Original Message- From: get_iplayer [mailto:get_iplayer-boun...@lists.infradead.org] On Behalf Of Sharon Kimble Sent: 06 August 2014 03:24 To: Frankie Higgs Cc: get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org Subject: Re: Major Close Down Frankie Higgs frankiehi...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, 2014-08-05 at 16:09 +0100, Jonathan H wrote: So, let me try and get this clear in my head... Have you really just compared the deaths of millions of young men who sacrificed their lives in two world wars, to the voluntary closure of a site hosting stolen material? Don't pretend to be surprised by someone's saying My ancestors didn't fight in WWn for this, It's a very common piece of rhetoric, and in this case isn't entirely inappropriate. If, as many do, Chris views the second world war as having been fought to defend us from fascist values, then he is correct in arguing that they were fought to prevent this sort of close down. One important democratic freedom is the freedom to share culture and information. The introduction of copyright to the UK was intended to allow for easier censorship, and to prevent free culture. I'd recommend reading http://ip.cream.org for the background. What does genuinely continue to surprise me is that people continue to compare copyright violation to theft. I'm not even sure if we have the legal right to use iPlayer content in a way the BBC don't explicitly allow, despite obviously having the moral right, so I don't view what we use get_iplayer for as any different from downloading these files from a P2P site. (If there's anyone on the list who can explain our exact legal status, I'd be grateful) I'm the writer of 'beeb', a script to help get programmes using get-iplayer, available at my website. This is a quote from the beeb manual, page 17, which explains the legal situation using information from the TV-licensings own web site. --8---cut here---start-8--- You do not need a UK TV licence to use ”get-iplayer” or ”beeb”. You only need a TV licence if you are recording TV programmes as they are being shown on TV. This is from the TV licensing website - ”The law states that you need to be covered by a TV Licence if you watch or record television programmes, on any device, as they’re being shown on TV. This includes TVs, computers, mobile phones, games consoles, digital boxes and Blu-ray/DVD/VHS recorders. You don’t need a licence if you don’t use any of these devices to watch or record television pro- grammes as they’re being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch catch up services like BBC iPlayer or 4oD.” Source - http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/ how-to-tell-us-you-dont-watch-tv-top12 --8---cut here---end---8--- I hope this helps Sharon. -- A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk my git repo = https://bitbucket.org/boudiccas/dots TGmeds = http://www.tgmeds.org.uk Debian testing, fluxbox 1.3.5, emacs 24.3.92.1 ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
Re: Major Close Down
David Lake dl...@cisco.com writes: Be VERY careful here. Every Media Selection page on the BBC's site includes the following line: !--This code and data form part of the BBC iPlayer content protection system. Tampering with, removal of, misuse of, or unauthorised use of this code or data constitutes circumvention of the BBC's content protection measures and may result in legal action. BBC (C) 2014.-- Note the term misuse. That is THEIR definition of misuse, not yours. It is not YOUR content - it is THEIRS. David. Thanks for your comment above, although I am not aware that I have said anywhere that it is my content! I've looked at http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/personal.shtml and also http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/help.shtml but I do not think that 'beeb' is in breach of any of their terms. However, I'm a Nurse and not a lawyer, so it is possible that I am wrong. It should also be noted that the BBC personal use page is dated 15 October 2012, whereas the TV licensing page/site at http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one?WT.ac=home_plt_check is stating exactly what I have quoted and is dated 2014. Sharon. -Original Message- From: get_iplayer [mailto:get_iplayer-boun...@lists.infradead.org] On Behalf Of Sharon Kimble Sent: 06 August 2014 03:24 To: Frankie Higgs Cc: get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org Subject: Re: Major Close Down Frankie Higgs frankiehi...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, 2014-08-05 at 16:09 +0100, Jonathan H wrote: So, let me try and get this clear in my head... Have you really just compared the deaths of millions of young men who sacrificed their lives in two world wars, to the voluntary closure of a site hosting stolen material? Don't pretend to be surprised by someone's saying My ancestors didn't fight in WWn for this, It's a very common piece of rhetoric, and in this case isn't entirely inappropriate. If, as many do, Chris views the second world war as having been fought to defend us from fascist values, then he is correct in arguing that they were fought to prevent this sort of close down. One important democratic freedom is the freedom to share culture and information. The introduction of copyright to the UK was intended to allow for easier censorship, and to prevent free culture. I'd recommend reading http://ip.cream.org for the background. What does genuinely continue to surprise me is that people continue to compare copyright violation to theft. I'm not even sure if we have the legal right to use iPlayer content in a way the BBC don't explicitly allow, despite obviously having the moral right, so I don't view what we use get_iplayer for as any different from downloading these files from a P2P site. (If there's anyone on the list who can explain our exact legal status, I'd be grateful) I'm the writer of 'beeb', a script to help get programmes using get-iplayer, available at my website. This is a quote from the beeb manual, page 17, which explains the legal situation using information from the TV-licensings own web site. You do not need a UK TV licence to use ”get-iplayer” or ”beeb”. You only need a TV licence if you are recording TV programmes as they are being shown on TV. This is from the TV licensing website - ”The law states that you need to be covered by a TV Licence if you watch or record television programmes, on any device, as they’re being shown on TV. This includes TVs, computers, mobile phones, games consoles, digital boxes and Blu-ray/DVD/VHS recorders. You don’t need a licence if you don’t use any of these devices to watch or record television pro- grammes as they’re being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch catch up services like BBC iPlayer or 4oD.” Source - http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/ how-to-tell-us-you-dont-watch-tv-top12 I hope this helps Sharon. -- A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk my git repo = https://bitbucket.org/boudiccas/dots TGmeds = http://www.tgmeds.org.uk Debian testing, fluxbox 1.3.5, emacs 24.3.92.1 -- A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk my git repo = https://bitbucket.org/boudiccas/dots TGmeds = http://www.tgmeds.org.uk Debian testing, fluxbox 1.3.5, emacs 24.3.92.1 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
RE: Major Close Down
Sorry - take the YOUR as plural, not you specifically. In other words, the Beeb own the content and the terms of their copyright determine what they allow one to do or not do with it. By consuming the content, you've agreed to the terms of the copyright. And I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, so dinner out means the local Wimpy, not the Ritz. :-) -Original Message- From: Sharon Kimble [mailto:boudic...@skimble.plus.com] Sent: 06 August 2014 13:00 To: David Lake (dlake) Cc: 'Frankie Higgs'; get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org Subject: Re: Major Close Down David Lake dl...@cisco.com writes: Be VERY careful here. Every Media Selection page on the BBC's site includes the following line: !--This code and data form part of the BBC iPlayer content protection system. Tampering with, removal of, misuse of, or unauthorised use of this code or data constitutes circumvention of the BBC's content protection measures and may result in legal action. BBC (C) 2014.-- Note the term misuse. That is THEIR definition of misuse, not yours. It is not YOUR content - it is THEIRS. David. Thanks for your comment above, although I am not aware that I have said anywhere that it is my content! I've looked at http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/personal.shtml and also http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/help.shtml but I do not think that 'beeb' is in breach of any of their terms. However, I'm a Nurse and not a lawyer, so it is possible that I am wrong. It should also be noted that the BBC personal use page is dated 15 October 2012, whereas the TV licensing page/site at http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one?WT.ac=home_plt_check is stating exactly what I have quoted and is dated 2014. Sharon. -Original Message- From: get_iplayer [mailto:get_iplayer-boun...@lists.infradead.org] On Behalf Of Sharon Kimble Sent: 06 August 2014 03:24 To: Frankie Higgs Cc: get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org Subject: Re: Major Close Down Frankie Higgs frankiehi...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, 2014-08-05 at 16:09 +0100, Jonathan H wrote: So, let me try and get this clear in my head... Have you really just compared the deaths of millions of young men who sacrificed their lives in two world wars, to the voluntary closure of a site hosting stolen material? Don't pretend to be surprised by someone's saying My ancestors didn't fight in WWn for this, It's a very common piece of rhetoric, and in this case isn't entirely inappropriate. If, as many do, Chris views the second world war as having been fought to defend us from fascist values, then he is correct in arguing that they were fought to prevent this sort of close down. One important democratic freedom is the freedom to share culture and information. The introduction of copyright to the UK was intended to allow for easier censorship, and to prevent free culture. I'd recommend reading http://ip.cream.org for the background. What does genuinely continue to surprise me is that people continue to compare copyright violation to theft. I'm not even sure if we have the legal right to use iPlayer content in a way the BBC don't explicitly allow, despite obviously having the moral right, so I don't view what we use get_iplayer for as any different from downloading these files from a P2P site. (If there's anyone on the list who can explain our exact legal status, I'd be grateful) I'm the writer of 'beeb', a script to help get programmes using get-iplayer, available at my website. This is a quote from the beeb manual, page 17, which explains the legal situation using information from the TV-licensings own web site. You do not need a UK TV licence to use ”get-iplayer” or ”beeb”. You only need a TV licence if you are recording TV programmes as they are being shown on TV. This is from the TV licensing website - ”The law states that you need to be covered by a TV Licence if you watch or record television programmes, on any device, as they’re being shown on TV. This includes TVs, computers, mobile phones, games consoles, digital boxes and Blu-ray/DVD/VHS recorders. You don’t need a licence if you don’t use any of these devices to watch or record television pro- grammes as they’re being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch catch up services like BBC iPlayer or 4oD.” Source - http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/ how-to-tell-us-you-dont-watch-tv-top12 I hope this helps Sharon. -- A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk my git repo = https://bitbucket.org/boudiccas/dots TGmeds = http://www.tgmeds.org.uk Debian testing, fluxbox 1.3.5, emacs 24.3.92.1 -- A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk my git repo = https://bitbucket.org/boudiccas/dots TGmeds = http://www.tgmeds.org.uk Debian testing, fluxbox 1.3.5, emacs 24.3.92.1 ___ get_iplayer mailing list
Major Close Down
Earlier this year it was TheBox.bz. A few months ago Radio Archive closed down. Now ZXCV.com (TB repacement) has gone for good. Our forbears fought in WW1 and WW2 for our freedoms to be who we want to be, to form sharing communities, and to live how we want to live. This year our freedoms gave been even more compromised by the enforced closing down of these sites. Beware / be aware - who is next? CJB. ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
Re: Major Close Down
So, let me try and get this clear in my head... Have you really just compared the deaths of millions of young men who sacrificed their lives in two world wars, to the voluntary closure of a site hosting stolen material? And on a mailing list to do with the legal internet broadcasting of license-funded content? Sometimes I wonder if we need another war just as a bit of a reality check... *double face palms and walks slowly away shaking head* ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
Re: Major Close Down
Come to Libertaria and visit the money tree gardens! Green all year round... The sentiment of your email stuck in my craw. There has been no loss of freedoms. You may now be less able to infringe copyright law; you have never been free to do it. The undeniable fact: for the overwhelming majority of content available from users on those sites, they were not legally permitted to distribute it to others. For example, by making British-broadcast programmes available to people in other territories outside of an official syndication agreement, these people lose out: - Original and syndicating broadcasters - Cast, crew and production staff - Fans, who can see their show cancelled from low official viewing figures or lack of advertising syndication revenue What's lost? - Syndication royalties and trickle-down advertising revenue - Employment for talented voice actors who dub into other languages, and skilled foreign language subtitle writers - ...future work for everyone involved It reduces opportunities for reinvestment by broadcasters because they might not perceive a profitable return on their investment or commission. Why would people watch if they've already downloaded it, circumventing the system -- so why bother risking capital to fund production, or pay $$$ to syndicate a widely pirated show? Let them go run an indiegogo and self-fund their own series if their fans are so keen to watch it. As so many of the programmes we enjoy are actually made by independent production houses, this has another tangible impact as they lay off employees or merge with other companies to avoid shutting down. I've worked in the independent sector of the music biz and witnessed the crippling loss of revenue, jobs and inability to reinvest in new talent across the industry over the past decade. It's much the same across the other creative industries. --- Don't conflate unlicensed distribution of copyrighted material with useful tools like get_iplayer, which is simply another method of accessing something all British citizens are already entitled to - per the terms of the licence the BBC grants to us. Implying our countrymen fought and died for our rights to wilfully break copyright law is facile and tasteless. Regards Chris (I'm not against P2P file-sharing as a mechanism, it's very efficient. Sadly it's short term gain for long term pain when it comes to quick-grab consumption of our favourite mass media.) On 5 August 2014 18:40:05 Chris Marriott ch...@chrism.demon.co.uk wrote: -Original Message- From: Chris J Brady Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 3:25 PM To: get_iplayer Subject: Major Close Down Earlier this year it was TheBox.bz. A few months ago Radio Archive closed down. Now ZXCV.com (TB repacement) has gone for good. Our forbears fought in WW1 and WW2 for our freedoms to be who we want to be, to form sharing communities, and to live how we want to live. I don't know what your forbears did, but mine certainly didn't do any fighting for the right to steal other peoples' copyrighted material. These are pirate sites, pure and simple. Good riddance to the lot of them. Chris ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
Re: Major Close Down
On 5 Aug 2014 at 16:09, Jonathan H Jonathan H lardconce...@gmail.com wrote: So, let me try and get this clear in my head... Have you really just compared the deaths of millions of young men who sacrificed their lives in two world wars, to the voluntary closure of a site hosting stolen material? And on a mailing list to do with the legal internet broadcasting of license-funded content? Sometimes I wonder if we need another war just as a bit of a reality check... *double face palms and walks slowly away shaking head* Now I understand why gmail classes all Chris J Brady's emails as spam ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
Re: Major Close Down
On Tue, 2014-08-05 at 16:09 +0100, Jonathan H wrote: So, let me try and get this clear in my head... Have you really just compared the deaths of millions of young men who sacrificed their lives in two world wars, to the voluntary closure of a site hosting stolen material? Don't pretend to be surprised by someone's saying My ancestors didn't fight in WWn for this, It's a very common piece of rhetoric, and in this case isn't entirely inappropriate. If, as many do, Chris views the second world war as having been fought to defend us from fascist values, then he is correct in arguing that they were fought to prevent this sort of close down. One important democratic freedom is the freedom to share culture and information. The introduction of copyright to the UK was intended to allow for easier censorship, and to prevent free culture. I'd recommend reading http://ip.cream.org for the background. What does genuinely continue to surprise me is that people continue to compare copyright violation to theft. I'm not even sure if we have the legal right to use iPlayer content in a way the BBC don't explicitly allow, despite obviously having the moral right, so I don't view what we use get_iplayer for as any different from downloading these files from a P2P site. (If there's anyone on the list who can explain our exact legal status, I'd be grateful) ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
Re: Major Close Down
On Tue, 05 Aug 2014 20:59:53 +0100 Frankie Higgs frankiehi...@gmail.com wrote: What does genuinely continue to surprise me is that people continue to compare copyright violation to theft. Pretty much every facet of the media uses copyright in the traditional way and as such they will tend to take pro-copyright stances, even when trying to be impartial. eg the BBC, the bastion of impartiality. Loads of their programmes are made by external companies, significant fractions of the staff of the BBC will have worked in the non-BBC parts of industry where questioning the fundamental philosophies of how the business works just isn't an encouraged debate to bring up. Ultimately the products these entities make will do things like demonise pirates - simply using the word pirate is demonisation because of the stigma attached to pirate. Impartially the average pirate is a violator of copyright law, a civil crime. I will concede what comes close to theft (and then only metaphorically) is the right the law gives to IP owners of control over distribution. Mostly they pick exclusive distribution meaning that when someone does something like upload on a torrent the uploader is breaking the law. They are breaking civil law though, not criminal, which is where actual theft (eg nicking a bike) lies. IMHO though when the internet exists and machines to handle data are everywhere and cheap that we cannot use technology to its fullest because of the law is a bit laughable. The media have very loud voices, we invite them into our homes and pockets (which they obviously encourage) and no matter details of their biases we stand to be influenced to varying degrees. I feel a big influence is something abstract to do with notions of monopolising ideas and information. Plus there people who have a livelihood based on copyright, there's the old phrase about someone will never get a subject if their salary relies on them not understanding. How technology has moved on and made past value-creation methods obsolete is something just not on the radar for some people. /end stoned ramble Nick ___ get_iplayer mailing list get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer
